From cacopatane at gmail.com  Mon May  1 13:40:29 2006
From: cacopatane at gmail.com (Caco Patane)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:40:29 -0300
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
Message-ID: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>

Look at this article were Freenet is named:
http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1169

"Both Winny and Share use Freenet code to help obscure the link
between IP addresses and shared folders, offering a certain level of
anonymity."

It's about leaked data to a P2P network.

Cheers,
Caco_Patane <!>

--
And the void rumbles in
Like an underground train
Forever comes closer
The world is in pain
We all must be shown, we must realise
That everyone changes and everything dies

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT dpu s:-- a-- C++ UL+++ P-- L++ E--- W+++ N o-- K- w---
O---- M V- PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP t+ 5-- X+ R+++ tv-- b++ DI-- D++
G++ e h+ r-- y**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


From ian at locut.us  Mon May  1 15:48:39 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:48:39 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>


On 1 May 2006, at 06:40, Caco Patane wrote:

> Look at this article were Freenet is named:
> http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1169
>
> "Both Winny and Share use Freenet code to help obscure the link
> between IP addresses and shared folders, offering a certain level of
> anonymity."
>
> It's about leaked data to a P2P network.
>
> Cheers,

Someone should correct that, to the best of my knowledge, neither of  
these applications reuse Freenet code.

Ian.


From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Mon May  1 21:24:53 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:24:53 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
Message-ID: <20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>

* Ian Clarke <ian at locut.us> [2006-05-01 08:48:39]:

> 
> On 1 May 2006, at 06:40, Caco Patane wrote:
> 
> >Look at this article were Freenet is named:
> >http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1169
> >
> >"Both Winny and Share use Freenet code to help obscure the link
> >between IP addresses and shared folders, offering a certain level of
> >anonymity."
> >
> >It's about leaked data to a P2P network.
> >
> >Cheers,
> 
> Someone should correct that, to the best of my knowledge, neither of  
> these applications reuse Freenet code.
> 
> Ian.

It's not even possible that they do as they are written in c++ and we use
java ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_%28P2P%29

NextGen$


From cacopatane at gmail.com  Wed May  3 02:27:10 2006
From: cacopatane at gmail.com (Caco Patane)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:27:10 -0300
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
Message-ID: <b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>

Andlook at it here...

http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci1186169,00.html

"Both Winny and Share use code from the amorphous Freenet network to
help obscure he link between IP addresses and shared folders, Slyck
noted, offering a certain level of anonymity."

Amorphous...

Saludos,
Caco_Patane <!>

On 5/1/06, Florent Daigni?re (NextGen$) <nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> * Ian Clarke <ian at locut.us> [2006-05-01 08:48:39]:
>
> >
> > On 1 May 2006, at 06:40, Caco Patane wrote:
> >
> > >Look at this article were Freenet is named:
> > >http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1169
> > >
> > >"Both Winny and Share use Freenet code to help obscure the link
> > >between IP addresses and shared folders, offering a certain level of
> > >anonymity."
> > >
> > >It's about leaked data to a P2P network.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> >
> > Someone should correct that, to the best of my knowledge, neither of
> > these applications reuse Freenet code.
> >
> > Ian.
>
> It's not even possible that they do as they are written in c++ and we use
> java ;)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winny
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_%28P2P%29
>
> NextGen$
>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT dpu s:-- a-- C++ UL+++ P-- L++ E--- W+++ N o-- K- w---
O---- M V- PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP t+ 5-- X+ R+++ tv-- b++ DI-- D++
G++ e h+ r-- y**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Wed May  3 11:39:57 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:39:57 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>

Does somebody want to write to them? Once a fallacy is in the press it
will tend to get circulated ad infinitum...

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:27:10PM -0300, Caco Patane wrote:
> Andlook at it here...
> 
> http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci1186169,00.html
> 
> "Both Winny and Share use code from the amorphous Freenet network to
> help obscure he link between IP addresses and shared folders, Slyck
> noted, offering a certain level of anonymity."
> 
> Amorphous...
> 
> Saludos,
> Caco_Patane <!>
> 
> On 5/1/06, Florent Daigni?re (NextGen$) <nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> >* Ian Clarke <ian at locut.us> [2006-05-01 08:48:39]:
> >
> >>
> >> On 1 May 2006, at 06:40, Caco Patane wrote:
> >>
> >> >Look at this article were Freenet is named:
> >> >http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1169
> >> >
> >> >"Both Winny and Share use Freenet code to help obscure the link
> >> >between IP addresses and shared folders, offering a certain level of
> >> >anonymity."
> >> >
> >> >It's about leaked data to a P2P network.
> >> >
> >> >Cheers,
> >>
> >> Someone should correct that, to the best of my knowledge, neither of
> >> these applications reuse Freenet code.
> >>
> >> Ian.
> >
> >It's not even possible that they do as they are written in c++ and we use
> >java ;)
> >
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winny
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_%28P2P%29
> >
> >NextGen$
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From cacopatane at gmail.com  Wed May  3 16:23:23 2006
From: cacopatane at gmail.com (Caco Patane)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:23:23 -0300
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>

> Does somebody want to write to them? Once a fallacy is in the press it
> will tend to get circulated ad infinitum...

I've mailed the guy from 'slyck' telling him about the error in the
articule. I let him know that if he want to ask something about
Freenet, go to the IRC channel. Also, to let me know when the
errata/correction is made.

Saludos,
Caco_Patane <!>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT dpu s:-- a-- C++ UL+++ P-- L++ E--- W+++ N o-- K- w---
O---- M V- PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP t+ 5-- X+ R+++ tv-- b++ DI-- D++
G++ e h+ r-- y**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Wed May  3 16:30:33 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:30:33 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060503163033.GA14468@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:23:23PM -0300, Caco Patane wrote:
> >Does somebody want to write to them? Once a fallacy is in the press it
> >will tend to get circulated ad infinitum...
> 
> I've mailed the guy from 'slyck' telling him about the error in the
> articule. I let him know that if he want to ask something about
> Freenet, go to the IRC channel. Also, to let me know when the
> errata/correction is made.

Probably they use freenet-like algorithms, or did once... I think I've
heard that too...
> 
> Saludos,
> Caco_Patane <!>
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From cacopatane at gmail.com  Wed May  3 17:02:01 2006
From: cacopatane at gmail.com (Caco Patane)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:02:01 -0300
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <20060503163033.GA14468@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503163033.GA14468@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <b9160f500605031002r1aa0aee6sa49b961cb1992a19@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the reply from Slyck.

I've checked at http://www.p2pnet.net/story/8026, the line is:

"Winny, which features Freenet code and includes anonymous
file-sharing, became known in the west when the Big Four record
labels' first Japanese victims were found to have been using it."

I think that Freenet "concept" instead of "code" would be more correct.

Do you want me to mail p2pnet.net too?

Regards,
Caco_Patane <!>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Michael Ingram <michael at slyck.com>
Date: May 3, 2006 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: Article Errata about Freenet
To: Caco Patane <cacopatane at gmail.com>


Hi Caco,

I will talk to the Slyck editor (Tom Mennecke) about the correction. He can
be contacted at tom at slyck.com.

Here is where I found my information: http://www.p2pnet.net/story/8026

I checked it against Wikipedia, which says that the two share the same
principles. I kept the same line, meaning code in a much looser sense.

In saying that, I will do my best to clarify - and I apologise for the
confusion caused.


Michael Ingram
Slyck News
www.slyck.com

E-Mail: michael at slyck.com

AOL: MichaelIntent
MSN: Michael at slyck.com
ICQ: 229086679
Yahoo: MikeIntent


From P413 at howecadets.com  Wed May  3 01:43:16 2006
From: P413 at howecadets.com (Perek, Katherine)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 21:43:16 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] get around school proxy?
Message-ID: <31A89D2894686743A45BA1C39ACEF9FB01DB23FE@hmsdc02.howe.howemilitary.com>

Can u help us ? 

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From ian at locut.us  Wed May  3 22:47:48 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:47:48 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] Tagging on mailing lists
Message-ID: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>

This makes a pretty persuasive argument for ditching the [freenet- 
devl] subject tags on mailing list emails:

   http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/

If nobody can come up with a good argument against this, I suggest we  
follow its advice and remove the Subject tags.

Ian.


From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Thu May  4 02:12:03 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:12:03 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Tagging on mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
References: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605031912r64e35286j4cc0c0b841811078@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/3/06, Ian Clarke <ian at locut.us> wrote:
>    http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/

My $0.02:

He suggests using filters and folders rather than [foo].  I use
Gmail's "Labels" fairly heavily --- I just counted thirty-four.  I do,
however, lump all my freenet lists together under "freenet", (La)TeX
lists under "???", Firefly and Serenity lists under "firefly", &c.;
the extra subtag is useful to me.  Without it I'd have half again as
many labels as I do and they would no longer be useful.

When Gmail adds sub-labels, you can remove the [foo] tag.

--Joel

From jeremy at iz.org  Thu May  4 04:18:01 2006
From: jeremy at iz.org (Jeremy G Byrne)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 12:18:01 +0800
Subject: [freenet-chat] Tagging on mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
References: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.1.20060504121158.03a72da8@facks.org>

At 06:47 AM 04/05/2006, Ian Clarke wrote:
>This makes a pretty persuasive argument for ditching the
>[freenet- devl] subject tags on mailing list emails:

No, it makes a lengthy and highly "POV" (to use wikipedia
terminology) argument to reverse a long-standing convention.

My email client's filtering is not 100% effective; I chose to
filter much of my mail by eye. Removing the subject-line tags
will mean that freenet posts will be harder to distinguish
from the spam.

CYa,
JEREMY



From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Thu May  4 05:28:58 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:28:58 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Tagging on mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605031912r64e35286j4cc0c0b841811078@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
	<7871fcf50605031912r64e35286j4cc0c0b841811078@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060504052857.GA15366@freenetproject.org>

* Joel Salomon <joelcsalomon at gmail.com> [2006-05-03 22:12:03]:

> On 5/3/06, Ian Clarke <ian at locut.us> wrote:
> >   http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/
> 
> My $0.02:
> 
> He suggests using filters and folders rather than [foo].  I use
> Gmail's "Labels" fairly heavily --- I just counted thirty-four.  I do,
> however, lump all my freenet lists together under "freenet", (La)TeX
> lists under "??????", Firefly and Serenity lists under "firefly", &c.;
> the extra subtag is useful to me.  Without it I'd have half again as
> many labels as I do and they would no longer be useful.
> 
> When Gmail adds sub-labels, you can remove the [foo] tag.
> 
> --Joel

You should use regexps against headers ;) not the subject.

NextGen$


From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Thu May  4 12:36:41 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:36:41 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Re: [Tech] Tagging on mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
References: <CEDE4E18-CF37-4695-9C72-E95EB49CA57E@locut.us>
Message-ID: <20060504123641.GD4673@amphibian.dyndns.org>

I think this would be too disruptive at this point; likely to result in
mass unsubscribes.

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 03:47:48PM -0700, Ian Clarke wrote:
> This makes a pretty persuasive argument for ditching the [freenet- 
> devl] subject tags on mailing list emails:
> 
>   http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/
> 
> If nobody can come up with a good argument against this, I suggest we  
> follow its advice and remove the Subject tags.
> 
> Ian.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From cacopatane at gmail.com  Thu May  4 16:24:11 2006
From: cacopatane at gmail.com (Caco Patane)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:24:11 -0300
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <b9160f500605031002r1aa0aee6sa49b961cb1992a19@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503163033.GA14468@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605031002r1aa0aee6sa49b961cb1992a19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9160f500605040924i3c53faeyb8ea5e5c051c53f@mail.gmail.com>

All,

Thanks to Michael Ingram, on the frontpage of http://www.slyck.com/
there is an update about the article:

"The original version of this article stated that Winny and Share
contained code from Freenet. As pointed out to Slyck.com by Freenet
developers, this is not true. It is thought that Winny and Share were
inspired by the design principles of Freenet, but do not contain any
actual code and are both written in different programming languages.
This article has been changed accordingly."

He was very polite and friendly in our mail exchange. Also, he's now
on the mailing list (anounce i think) to see news about Freenet.

Saludos,
Caco_Patane <!>

--
And the void rumbles in
Like an underground train
Forever comes closer
The world is in pain
We all must be shown, we must realise
That everyone changes and everything dies

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT dpu s:-- a-- C++ UL+++ P-- L++ E--- W+++ N o-- K- w---
O---- M V- PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP t+ 5-- X+ R+++ tv-- b++ DI-- D++
G++ e h+ r-- y**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Thu May  4 16:26:36 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 17:26:36 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Freenet code in Winny and Share
In-Reply-To: <b9160f500605040924i3c53faeyb8ea5e5c051c53f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b9160f500605010640x7a00f3cxcf93361305aa6610@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5EE3E9B-3BC9-4250-BDE7-392CF5ED59F8@locut.us>
	<20060501212452.GA24830@freenetproject.org>
	<b9160f500605021927s694cc868r69119afdda78ab9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503113957.GA4041@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605030923q3477e58fj20eeae3a83c0fb35@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060503163033.GA14468@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<b9160f500605031002r1aa0aee6sa49b961cb1992a19@mail.gmail.com>
	<b9160f500605040924i3c53faeyb8ea5e5c051c53f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060504162636.GA9910@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 01:24:11PM -0300, Caco Patane wrote:
> All,
> 
> Thanks to Michael Ingram, on the frontpage of http://www.slyck.com/
> there is an update about the article:
> 
> "The original version of this article stated that Winny and Share
> contained code from Freenet. As pointed out to Slyck.com by Freenet
> developers, this is not true. It is thought that Winny and Share were
> inspired by the design principles of Freenet, but do not contain any
> actual code and are both written in different programming languages.
> This article has been changed accordingly."
> 
> He was very polite and friendly in our mail exchange. Also, he's now
> on the mailing list (anounce i think) to see news about Freenet.

Excellent... it will be some time before we can put alpha 2 out, but
good relations with journo's are always good.
> 
> Saludos,
> Caco_Patane <!>
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sun May  7 03:16:40 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:16:40 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] req: firefox plugin
Message-ID: <445D6698.3080109@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi all,

Given the rise to prominence of Firefox as The One True Wholesome
Browser, is there anyone in the Freenet community who might be inspired
to write a Firefox plugin to handle freenet URLs?

How I'd see a plugin working:

 * configuration includes:
    - host, port for an Fproxy
 * handles 'freenet:' type URLs, in the address bar,
   in bookmarks, in clickable links, and sends such
   requests over to the nominated fproxy
 * possibly stick a tiny freenet 'hops' (white rabbit) logo
   in the browser status bar, with a red circle/stroke if the
   FProxy is not reachable

Anyone here with firefox plugin skills who might be motivated?

Cheers
David




From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Sun May  7 14:46:12 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:46:12 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] req: firefox plugin
In-Reply-To: <445D6698.3080109@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <445D6698.3080109@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060507144610.GH3993@freenetproject.org>

* David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> [2006-05-07 15:16:40]:

> Hi all,
> 
> Given the rise to prominence of Firefox as The One True Wholesome
> Browser, is there anyone in the Freenet community who might be inspired
> to write a Firefox plugin to handle freenet URLs?
> 
> How I'd see a plugin working:
> 
>  * configuration includes:
>     - host, port for an Fproxy
>  * handles 'freenet:' type URLs, in the address bar,
>    in bookmarks, in clickable links, and sends such
>    requests over to the nominated fproxy
>  * possibly stick a tiny freenet 'hops' (white rabbit) logo
>    in the browser status bar, with a red circle/stroke if the
>    FProxy is not reachable
> 
> Anyone here with firefox plugin skills who might be motivated?
> 

There is already something like that in svn : 
https://emu.freenetproject.org/svn/trunk/apps/NSplugin/

it needs updating though.


NextGen$
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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sun May  7 21:41:28 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:41:28 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol handling
Message-ID: <445E6988.90207@rebirthing.co.nz>

Synopsis:
--------

A 2-minute recipe for getting Firefox to handle 'freenet:'-style URLs,
so that mainstream web pages can link to freesite pages without worrying
about fproxy access specifics.

Purpose:
-------

Allow mainstream websites to contain abstracted freenet links such as:

  <a href="freenet:SSK at blahblah">hot freenet stuff here</a>

without needing to prefix the href with fproxy address details, such as:
 'href="http://localhost:8888/SSK at blahblah"'.

This can be valuable, since many users don't have their fproxy on
localhost:8888 (myself for instance, since i run my freenet node on a
headless server on the other side of my LAN). For such users, links on
mainstream websites with 'href="http://localhost:8888"' will be broken.

This recipe allows the specifics of fproxy access to be buried within
firefox.

Procedure:
---------

1) Stick the following script somewhere in your system:

 #!/bin/sh
 /path/to/firefox -remote "openURL(http://localhost:8888/$1)"

Call it (say) /usr/local/bin/firefox_freenet (we'll refer to the path
later on)

If your fproxy is not on 'localhost:8888', change accordingly.

If you're still in the Redmond Prison, use instead the script:

 c:\pathto\firefox.exe -remote "openURL(http://localhost:8888/%1)"

and write this into a .BAT file somewhere on your disk, say,
c:\freenet\firefox_freenet.bat

2) Within firefox, type into the address bar 'about:config'

3) within the displayed pane, do:

  (i) right-click, New, String.
      For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.app.freenet
      And for value, enter:
        /usr/local/bin/firefox_freenet

      (in windows hell, enter c:\firefox\firefox_freenet.BAT)

  (ii) right-click, New, Boolean
       For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.external.freenet
       And for value, enter:
         true

  (iii) right-click, New, Boolean
       For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.warn-external.freenet
       And for value, enter:
         false

You're done.

Test it out by entering into your firefox address bar the URL:

freenet:USK at PFeLTa1si2Ml5sDeUy7eDhPso6TPdmw-2gWfQ4Jg02w,3ocfrqgUMVWA2PeorZx40TW0c-FiIOL-TWKQHoDbVdE,AQABAAE/Index/25/


-- 
Cheers
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sun May  7 21:48:55 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:48:55 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol handling
Message-ID: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>

FIXED!

Synopsis:
--------

A 2-minute recipe for getting Firefox to handle 'freenet:'-style URLs,
so that mainstream web pages can link to freesite pages without worrying
about fproxy access specifics.

Purpose:
-------

Allow mainstream websites to contain abstracted freenet links such as:

  <a href="freenet:SSK at blahblah">hot freenet stuff here</a>

without needing to prefix the href with fproxy address details, such as:
 'href="http://localhost:8888/SSK at blahblah"'.

This can be valuable, since many users don't have their fproxy on
localhost:8888 (myself for instance, since i run my freenet node on a
headless server on the other side of my LAN). For such users, links on
mainstream websites with 'href="http://localhost:8888"' will be broken.

This recipe allows the specifics of fproxy access to be buried within
firefox.

Procedure:
---------

1) Stick the following script somewhere in your system:

 #!/bin/sh
 /path/to/firefox -remote "openURL(http://localhost:8888/$1,new-tab)"

Call it (say) /usr/local/bin/firefox_freenet (we'll refer to the path
later on). Chmod it to execute permission.

If your fproxy is not on 'localhost:8888', change accordingly.

If you're still in the Redmond Prison, use instead the script:

 c:\pathto\firefox.exe -remote "openURL(http://localhost:8888/%1,new-tab)"

(all on one line)

and write this into a .BAT file somewhere on your disk, say,
c:\freenet\firefox_freenet.bat

2) Within firefox, type into the address bar 'about:config'

3) within the displayed pane, do:

  (i) right-click, New, String.
      For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.app.freenet
      And for value, enter:
        /usr/local/bin/firefox_freenet

      (in windows hell, enter c:\firefox\firefox_freenet.BAT)

  (ii) right-click, New, Boolean
       For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.external.freenet
       And for value, enter:
         true

  (iii) right-click, New, Boolean
       For preference name, enter:
        network.protocol-handler.warn-external.freenet
       And for value, enter:
         false

You're done.

Test it out by entering into your firefox address bar the URL:

freenet:USK at PFeLTa1si2Ml5sDeUy7eDhPso6TPdmw-2gWfQ4Jg02w,3ocfrqgUMVWA2PeorZx40TW0c-FiIOL-TWKQHoDbVdE,AQABAAE/Index/25/


-- 
Cheers
David




From ian at locut.us  Mon May  8 00:32:13 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 17:32:13 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>

This worries me, as it has worried me every time someone has  
suggested it (it is suggested about once every 6 months on average):

On 7 May 2006, at 14:48, David McNab wrote:
> A 2-minute recipe for getting Firefox to handle 'freenet:'-style URLs,
> so that mainstream web pages can link to freesite pages without  
> worrying
> about fproxy access specifics.

So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox  
and have installed the plugin?  Isn't it preferable to encourage  
people to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?  This will  
work with any web browser without any plugins, even if it isn't quite  
as pretty as using the "freenet:" prefix?

While we might gain the visual elegance of freenet:-style URL  
prefixes, we lose cross-browser compatibility, and the ability for  
people to link to pages on Freenet without special browser plugins.   
It really isn't worth it.

Ian.



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Mon May  8 01:04:38 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 13:04:38 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
Message-ID: <445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>

Ian Clarke wrote:
> So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox
> and have installed the plugin?
...
>  Isn't it preferable to encourage people
> to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?

Seems we've got two imperfect options:

1) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to have their
fproxy at 127.0.0.1:8888

versus

2) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to use an
extensible open-source browser

Both scenarios suck, but IMHO the latter sucks a lot less.

Anyone else got an opinion on this?

Cheers
David



From ian at locut.us  Mon May  8 01:56:13 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 18:56:13 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
	<445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <3F41504D-C821-4DBB-B73C-C02E43BCD0A8@locut.us>

On 7 May 2006, at 18:04, David McNab wrote:
> Ian Clarke wrote:
>> So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox
>> and have installed the plugin?
> ...
>>  Isn't it preferable to encourage people
>> to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?
>
> Seems we've got two imperfect options:
>
> 1) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to have  
> their
> fproxy at 127.0.0.1:8888

In which case the user will have some idea of why they are getting  
broken links, as they will have made a conscious decision to change  
their fproxy address.

> versus
>
> 2) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to use an
> extensible open-source browser

Its not our job to punish the 90% of web users that don't agree with  
your preferred choice of web browser.  Worse, we would also be  
punishing those people that do agree with your choice of web browser,  
but who don't have the appropriate plugin.

> Both scenarios suck, but IMHO the latter sucks a lot less.

Both scenarios are similar in terms of the poor user experience, the  
differentiator is which is more likely.  Going with freenet:-style  
urls is much more likely to lead to scenario 2 than sticking with our  
current approach is to lead to scenario 1.

Ian.



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Mon May  8 02:10:31 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 14:10:31 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <3F41504D-C821-4DBB-B73C-C02E43BCD0A8@locut.us>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
	<445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<3F41504D-C821-4DBB-B73C-C02E43BCD0A8@locut.us>
Message-ID: <445EA897.8080808@rebirthing.co.nz>

Ian Clarke wrote:
> On 7 May 2006, at 18:04, David McNab wrote:
>> Ian Clarke wrote:
>>> So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox
>>> and have installed the plugin?
>> ...
>>>  Isn't it preferable to encourage people
>>> to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?
>>
>> Seems we've got two imperfect options:
>>
>> 1) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to have their
>> fproxy at 127.0.0.1:8888
> 
> In which case the user will have some idea of why they are getting
> broken links, as they will have made a conscious decision to change
> their fproxy address.
> 
>> versus
>>
>> 2) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to use an
>> extensible open-source browser
> 
> Its not our job to punish the 90% of web users that don't agree with
> your preferred choice of web browser.  Worse, we would also be punishing
> those people that do agree with your choice of web browser, but who
> don't have the appropriate plugin.
> 
>> Both scenarios suck, but IMHO the latter sucks a lot less.
> 
> Both scenarios are similar in terms of the poor user experience, the
> differentiator is which is more likely.  Going with freenet:-style urls
> is much more likely to lead to scenario 2 than sticking with our current
> approach is to lead to scenario 1.

/me stifles the temptation to write an fproxyproxy

-- 
Cheers
David



From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Mon May  8 07:44:19 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:44:19 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <445EA897.8080808@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
	<445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<3F41504D-C821-4DBB-B73C-C02E43BCD0A8@locut.us>
	<445EA897.8080808@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060508074418.GA9961@freenetproject.org>

* David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> [2006-05-08 14:10:31]:

> Ian Clarke wrote:
> > On 7 May 2006, at 18:04, David McNab wrote:
> >> Ian Clarke wrote:
> >>> So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox
> >>> and have installed the plugin?
> >> ...
> >>>  Isn't it preferable to encourage people
> >>> to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?
> >>
> >> Seems we've got two imperfect options:
> >>
> >> 1) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to have their
> >> fproxy at 127.0.0.1:8888
> > 
> > In which case the user will have some idea of why they are getting
> > broken links, as they will have made a conscious decision to change
> > their fproxy address.
> > 
> >> versus
> >>
> >> 2) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to use an
> >> extensible open-source browser
> > 
> > Its not our job to punish the 90% of web users that don't agree with
> > your preferred choice of web browser.  Worse, we would also be punishing
> > those people that do agree with your choice of web browser, but who
> > don't have the appropriate plugin.
> > 
> >> Both scenarios suck, but IMHO the latter sucks a lot less.
> > 
> > Both scenarios are similar in terms of the poor user experience, the
> > differentiator is which is more likely.  Going with freenet:-style urls
> > is much more likely to lead to scenario 2 than sticking with our current
> > approach is to lead to scenario 1.
> 
> /me stifles the temptation to write an fproxyproxy

It exists ! :)

Try to set up your browser to use fproxy as an HTTP proxy server ;)

IMHO it's even better in term of security as you're SURE that no
external link could be loaded by your browser.

NextGen$
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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Mon May  8 09:06:16 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 21:06:16 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] (amended) HOWTO: firefox 'freenet:' protocol
	handling
In-Reply-To: <20060508074418.GA9961@freenetproject.org>
References: <445E6B47.2060603@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<DB8DD33A-E842-4ADC-985F-A41DF2538808@locut.us>
	<445E9926.6090704@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<3F41504D-C821-4DBB-B73C-C02E43BCD0A8@locut.us>
	<445EA897.8080808@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<20060508074418.GA9961@freenetproject.org>
Message-ID: <445F0A08.2010104@rebirthing.co.nz>

Florent Daigni?re (NextGen$) wrote:
> * David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> [2006-05-08 14:10:31]:
> 
>> Ian Clarke wrote:
>>> On 7 May 2006, at 18:04, David McNab wrote:
>>>> Ian Clarke wrote:
>>>>> So websites that use this will only work with users that have Firefox
>>>>> and have installed the plugin?
>>>> ...
>>>>>  Isn't it preferable to encourage people
>>>>> to use the normal http://127.0.0.1:8888/ prefix?
>>>> Seems we've got two imperfect options:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to have their
>>>> fproxy at 127.0.0.1:8888
>>> In which case the user will have some idea of why they are getting
>>> broken links, as they will have made a conscious decision to change
>>> their fproxy address.
>>>
>>>> versus
>>>>
>>>> 2) Dump user into a sea of broken links if they choose not to use an
>>>> extensible open-source browser
>>> Its not our job to punish the 90% of web users that don't agree with
>>> your preferred choice of web browser.  Worse, we would also be punishing
>>> those people that do agree with your choice of web browser, but who
>>> don't have the appropriate plugin.
>>>
>>>> Both scenarios suck, but IMHO the latter sucks a lot less.
>>> Both scenarios are similar in terms of the poor user experience, the
>>> differentiator is which is more likely.  Going with freenet:-style urls
>>> is much more likely to lead to scenario 2 than sticking with our current
>>> approach is to lead to scenario 1.
>> /me stifles the temptation to write an fproxyproxy
> 
> It exists ! :)
> 
> Try to set up your browser to use fproxy as an HTTP proxy server ;)
> 
> IMHO it's even better in term of security as you're SURE that no
> external link could be loaded by your browser.
> 
> NextGen$

The latest version of SwitchProxy for Firefox allows 2-click proxy
switching, so I've already got my fproxy configured in there.

-- 
Cheers
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Wed May 10 23:26:05 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:26:05 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] my 0.7 feedback
Message-ID: <4462768D.2070409@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi all,

I've been away from freenet for some time, largely due to the
frustration caused by Freenet's pathological unreliability in the
0.4,0.5 era as I was trying to get Freemail to work reliably.

In the last couple of weeks, I've been dabbling with 0.7, and have been
in the process of implementing pyfcp (a python library for clients to
access freenet via FCP), and development has taken a couple of orders of
magnitude less time and effort (and pain) compared to its counterpart on
0.4-0.6.

I want to say that with the new architecture of 0.7, I feel my energies
and enthusiasm have regenerated (after feeling burned out and
disillusioned with 0.4-0.6). So congratulations, lots of bouquets, and
lots of fine wine/malt whisky/sticky buds/funny mushrooms/etc to the
architects and developers.

In particular, some of the features I'm really enjoying are:

 - transparent splitfiles handling within the node - no more of this
   dragging the client through the entrails of this complicated process

 - FCP's 'ClientPutComplexDir', making freesite insertion an absolute
   breeze

 - the USK keytype, and its transparent management within the node. This
   rocks so goddam hard - no more tedious freesite insertion schedules,
   no more annoying metadata construction, no more sites dropping off
   if the author misses an insertion deadline

 - Metadata.ContentType - marvelously simple and to the point. In
   99.95% of cases, no more metadata than this is needed

 - fproxy's improvements, and ability to manage lots of stuff via
   the web interface

Guys, you've won me back as a client writer, and I'm sure you'll win
back a lot more people as word of 0.7's atonements gets out.

Cheers
David (aum)




From ian at locut.us  Wed May 10 23:33:03 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:33:03 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] my 0.7 feedback
In-Reply-To: <4462768D.2070409@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <4462768D.2070409@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <CE0D2392-672A-46BB-A7A8-83F982D89F74@locut.us>

That is nice to hear David, welcome back :-)

Ian.

On 10 May 2006, at 16:26, David McNab wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've been away from freenet for some time, largely due to the
> frustration caused by Freenet's pathological unreliability in the
> 0.4,0.5 era as I was trying to get Freemail to work reliably.
>
> In the last couple of weeks, I've been dabbling with 0.7, and have  
> been
> in the process of implementing pyfcp (a python library for clients to
> access freenet via FCP), and development has taken a couple of  
> orders of
> magnitude less time and effort (and pain) compared to its  
> counterpart on
> 0.4-0.6.
>
> I want to say that with the new architecture of 0.7, I feel my  
> energies
> and enthusiasm have regenerated (after feeling burned out and
> disillusioned with 0.4-0.6). So congratulations, lots of bouquets, and
> lots of fine wine/malt whisky/sticky buds/funny mushrooms/etc to the
> architects and developers.
>
> In particular, some of the features I'm really enjoying are:
>
>  - transparent splitfiles handling within the node - no more of this
>    dragging the client through the entrails of this complicated  
> process
>
>  - FCP's 'ClientPutComplexDir', making freesite insertion an absolute
>    breeze
>
>  - the USK keytype, and its transparent management within the node.  
> This
>    rocks so goddam hard - no more tedious freesite insertion  
> schedules,
>    no more annoying metadata construction, no more sites dropping off
>    if the author misses an insertion deadline
>
>  - Metadata.ContentType - marvelously simple and to the point. In
>    99.95% of cases, no more metadata than this is needed
>
>  - fproxy's improvements, and ability to manage lots of stuff via
>    the web interface
>
> Guys, you've won me back as a client writer, and I'm sure you'll win
> back a lot more people as word of 0.7's atonements gets out.
>
> Cheers
> David (aum)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> chat mailing list
> chat at freenetproject.org
> Archived: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.general
> Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/ 
> listinfo/chat
> Or mailto:chat-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Thu May 11 01:10:34 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:10:34 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freesite inserter, plus pyfcp updates
Message-ID: <44628F0A.6010909@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi folks,

I've updated svn with a better, cleaner, sexier pyfcp (FCP client
library for Python).

Along with that, I've included a little prog called 'sitemgr', which
works as a simple console-based, cron-able freesite inserter, and which
keeps a hash of each freesite to prevent unnecessary insertions.

Cheers
David




From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Thu May 11 08:35:49 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:35:49 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Q: transient nodes and freesite insertions
Message-ID: <4462F765.4000901@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

I've got a cron job which, once a day:
 1. starts a transient freenet node
 2. lets the node 'settle' for 60 seconds
 3. does a round of freesite insertions
 4. sits for another 60 seconds
 5. shuts down the node

Given that the node has at least a couple of good connections to peers,
is this a safe setup?

In other words, will the transience of the node impact on the ability of
others to reach the inserted freesites? If so, then is there an amount
of time I should leave the node running after the freesite inserts which
will mitigate such impacts?

Thanks in advance for your replies

Cheers
David




From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Thu May 11 09:00:31 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:00:31 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Q: transient nodes and freesite insertions
In-Reply-To: <4462F765.4000901@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <4462F765.4000901@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060511085931.GB17995@freenetproject.org>

* David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> [2006-05-11 20:35:49]:

> Hi,
> 
> I've got a cron job which, once a day:
>  1. starts a transient freenet node
>  2. lets the node 'settle' for 60 seconds
>  3. does a round of freesite insertions
>  4. sits for another 60 seconds
>  5. shuts down the node
> 
> Given that the node has at least a couple of good connections to peers,
> is this a safe setup?
> 
> In other words, will the transience of the node impact on the ability of
> others to reach the inserted freesites? If so, then is there an amount
> of time I should leave the node running after the freesite inserts which
> will mitigate such impacts?


The problem is that the bootstraping time might depend on your peer's
locations : I don't think that 60 secs is enough to 1) connect to
everyone 2) swap your location.

On the other hand, as you're only inserting, it's not that important...

> 
> Thanks in advance for your replies
> 
> Cheers
> David
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> chat mailing list
> chat at freenetproject.org
> Archived: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.general
> Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chat
> Or mailto:chat-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
> 
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From ian at locut.us  Thu May 11 15:22:03 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:22:03 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] Q: transient nodes and freesite insertions
In-Reply-To: <4462F765.4000901@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <4462F765.4000901@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <D8EAF3C7-C319-4D52-A29E-D117DAD86D19@locut.us>


On 11 May 2006, at 01:35, David McNab wrote:
> I've got a cron job which, once a day:
>  1. starts a transient freenet node
>  2. lets the node 'settle' for 60 seconds
>  3. does a round of freesite insertions
>  4. sits for another 60 seconds
>  5. shuts down the node
>
> Given that the node has at least a couple of good connections to  
> peers,
> is this a safe setup?
>
> In other words, will the transience of the node impact on the  
> ability of
> others to reach the inserted freesites? If so, then is there an amount
> of time I should leave the node running after the freesite inserts  
> which
> will mitigate such impacts?
>
> Thanks in advance for your replies

This should work fine - even if your peer doesn't have time to  
acquire a desirable location (and it probably won't in 60 seconds),  
the nodes it talks to probably will, so inserts should get routed  
correctly.

Ian.


From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Fri May 12 06:54:24 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:54:24 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: PyFCP now ready for use
Message-ID: <44643120.9050403@rebirthing.co.nz>


Hi Python hax0r5,

I've just checked into svn a whole new version of pyfcp, which should be
good enough for use in freenet client development.

Features:
 - very simple intuitive API
 - all primitives support synchronous, asynchronous and callback-based
   invocation
 - includes an XML-RPC server module, which exposes FCP primitives over
   XML-RPC
 - includes a 'sitemgr' module, very useful for command-line
   (or cron-based) freesite insertion
 - now with full API documentation

Todo:
 - implement support for persistent jobs

If you find bugs, please check your patches into svn. If you don't have
svn access, or if you're not confident to fix the bugs, give me a yell.

Cheers
David




From ian at locut.us  Fri May 12 17:16:02 2006
From: ian at locut.us (Ian Clarke)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:16:02 -0700
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: PyFCP now ready for use
In-Reply-To: <44643120.9050403@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <44643120.9050403@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <FA383985-6911-4F9F-84DC-15743D1F8E51@locut.us>

David, can you add a link to this in the Library Implementations  
section of this page:

   http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetFCPSpec2Point0

Ian.

On 11 May 2006, at 23:54, David McNab wrote:

>
> Hi Python hax0r5,
>
> I've just checked into svn a whole new version of pyfcp, which  
> should be
> good enough for use in freenet client development.
>
> Features:
>  - very simple intuitive API
>  - all primitives support synchronous, asynchronous and callback-based
>    invocation
>  - includes an XML-RPC server module, which exposes FCP primitives  
> over
>    XML-RPC
>  - includes a 'sitemgr' module, very useful for command-line
>    (or cron-based) freesite insertion
>  - now with full API documentation
>
> Todo:
>  - implement support for persistent jobs
>
> If you find bugs, please check your patches into svn. If you don't  
> have
> svn access, or if you're not confident to fix the bugs, give me a  
> yell.
>
> Cheers
> David
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> chat mailing list
> chat at freenetproject.org
> Archived: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.general
> Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/ 
> listinfo/chat
> Or mailto:chat-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sat May 13 02:41:54 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:41:54 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: PyFCP now ready for use
In-Reply-To: <FA383985-6911-4F9F-84DC-15743D1F8E51@locut.us>
References: <44643120.9050403@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<FA383985-6911-4F9F-84DC-15743D1F8E51@locut.us>
Message-ID: <44654772.7090201@rebirthing.co.nz>

Ian Clarke wrote:
> David, can you add a link to this in the Library Implementations section
> of this page:
> 
>   http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetFCPSpec2Point0

Done

Also, I've added wiki pages:

 - FreenetTipsAndTricks (linked from front page)
 - FreenetDevTools (linked from front page)
 - InsertingFreesitesWithCron (linked from tips'n'tricks page)

Cheers
David




From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sat May 13 07:18:28 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:18:28 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] PyFCP freesite
Message-ID: <44658844.2010903@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi all,

Sorry to spam the chat list, but Frost is being a bit uncooperative.

The official freesite for PyFCP, including release tarball, is:

freenet:/USK at yhAqcwNdN1y1eyRQQwZfhu4dpn-tPNlZMeNRZxEg1bM%2czBUodpjtZdJvzWmwYKgr8jO5V-yKxZvetsr8tADNg2U%2cAQABAAE/pyfcp/1/

(try saying that in one breath - why have URIs got so obese in 0.7??!)

-- 
Cheers
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Tue May 16 12:08:43 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:08:43 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freesitemgr and PyFCP 0.1.2
Message-ID: <4469C0CB.1060102@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

Announcing a whole new refactored PyFCP, together with a whole new
client app 'freesitemgr'.

freesitemgr is a console app that makes it easy to insert freesites, and
manages a single freesites config file. Invoking 'freesitemgr -h' shows
all the options.

Also, owing to freenet0.7's chronic inability to insert my pyfcp
freesite (it always seems to get to 8 out of 9 succeeded, then hangs
forever), I'm now mirroring the pyfcp site on the mainstream web at
http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/pyfcp

-- 
Kind regards
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Tue May 16 12:17:54 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:17:54 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] is frost killing freenet?
Message-ID: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>

Could it be that the intense query traffic generated by the n running
frost instances is flooding freenet?

Is freenet really suited to frost (or vice versa)?

Cheers
David



From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Tue May 16 12:46:37 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:46:37 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] is frost killing freenet?
In-Reply-To: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060516124637.GA3562@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:17:54AM +1200, David McNab wrote:
> Could it be that the intense query traffic generated by the n running
> frost instances is flooding freenet?

I don't think so. I don't think that Frost generates that much traffic.
> 
> Is freenet really suited to frost (or vice versa)?

How exactly do you propose to eliminate Frost? Without eliminating 75%
of the freenet users community?

Just because it's not elegant doesn't mean it's not useful.
> 
> Cheers
> David
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From george.danezis at esat.kuleuven.be  Tue May 16 16:37:02 2006
From: george.danezis at esat.kuleuven.be (George Danezis)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:37:02 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] PET 2006: Call for Participation
Message-ID: <4469FFAE.30709@esat.kuleuven.be>

Call for Participation

6th Workshop on Privacy Enhancing Technologies
(PET 2006)

Robinson College, Cambridge, United Kingdom
June 28 - June 30, 2006
http://petworkshop.org/2006/

Special Events:
* Keynote speaker: Susan Landau, Sun Microsystems Laboratories
  on "The Missing Link", (Abstract at the end of the email.)
* PET Award 2006 ceremony and reception at Microsoft Research,
  http://petworkshop.org/2006/award.html

Co-located with:
* The Fifth Workshop on the Economics of Information Security
  (WEIS 2006), 26-28 June, http://weis2006.econinfosec.org/
* IAVoSS Workshop On Trustworthy Elections (WOTE 2006)
  29-30 June, http://www.win.tue.nl/~berry/wote2006/

Privacy and anonymity are increasingly important in the online
world. Corporations, governments, and other organizations are
realizing and exploiting their power to track users and their
behavior, and restricting the ability to publish or retrieve
documents. Approaches to not only protecting individuals and groups,
but also companies and governments, from such profiling and
censorship include decentralization, encryption, distributed
trust, and automated policy disclosure.

This 6th workshop addresses the design and realization of such privacy
and anti-censorship services for the Internet and other communication
networks by bringing together anonymity and privacy experts from
around the world to discuss recent advances and new perspectives.

Early registration by May 12 at:
http://petworkshop.org/2006/petRegister.html

Further local information on accommodation and travel is available
on the PET workshop website (book accommodation early!):
http://petworkshop.org/2006/petTravel.html

Program Chairs:
* Philippe Golle, PARC
  (Philippe.Golle at parc com)
* George Danezis, K.U.Leuven
  (George.Danezis at esat kuleuven be)

General Chair:
* Richard Clayton, University of Cambridge
  (Richard.Clayton at cl cam ac uk)

Research Program:
(also at http://petworkshop.org/2006/program.html)

Privacy and the real world

    * One Big File Is Not Enough: A Critical Evaluation of
      the Dominant Free-Space Sanitization Technique
         Simson Garfinkel and David Malan
    * Protecting Privacy with the MPEG-21 IPMP Framework
         Nicholas Paul Sheppard and Reihaneh Safavi-Naini
    * Privacy for Public Transportation
         Thomas S. Heydt-Benjamin, Hee-Jin Chae, Benessa Defend, and
Kevin Fu
    * Privacy Rights Management - Taming Cellphone Cameras
         Mina Deng, Lothar Fritsch and Klaus Kursawe
    * Ignoring the Great Firewall of China
         Richard Clayton, Steven J. Murdoch and Robert N. M. Watson
    * I Know What You Did Last Summer: Self-Awareness,
      Imagined Communities,and Information Sharing in an
      Online Social Network
         Alessandro Acquisti and Ralph Gross

Privacy policies

    * Enhancing Consumer Privacy in the Liberty Alliance
      Identity Federation and Web Services Frameworks
         Mansour Alsaleh and Carlisle Adams
    * Traceable and Automatic Compliance of Privacy
      Policies in Federated Digital Identity Management
         Anna C. Squicciarini, Abhilasha Bhargav-Spantzel,
         Alexei Czeskis and Elisa Bertino
    * Privacy Injector - Automated Privacy Enforcement through Aspects
         Chris Vanden Berghe and Matthias Schunter
    * A Systemic Approach to Automate Privacy Policy
      Enforcement in Enterprises
         Marco Casassa Mont and Robert Thyne

Anonymous communications

    * Improving Sender Anonymity in a Structured Overlay
      with Imprecise Routing
         Giuseppe Ciaccio
    * Selectively Traceable Anonymity
         Luis von Ahn, Andrew Bortz, Nicholas Hopper and Kevin O'Neill
    * Valet Services: Improving Hidden Servers with a Personal Touch
         Lasse ?verlier and Paul Syverson
    * Blending different latency traffic with alpha-mixing
         Roger Dingledine, Andrei Serjantov and Paul Syverson

Attacks: Traffic and Location analysis

    * Breaking the Collusion Detection Mechanism of MorphMix
         Parisa Tabriz and Nikita Borisov
    * Linking Anonymous Transactions: The Consistent View Attack
         Andreas Pashalidis and Bernd Meyer
    * Preserving User Location Privacy in Mobile Data
      Management Infrastructures
         Reynold Cheng, Yu Zhang, Elisa Bertino and Sunil Prabhakar
    * Location Access Effects on Trail Re-identification
         Bradley Malin and Edoardo Airoldi

Private muti-party computation, authentication, and cryptography

    * Private Resource Pairing
         Joseph A. Calandrino and Alfred C. Weaver
    * On the Security of the Tor Authentication Protocol
         Ian Goldberg
    * Honest-Verifier Private Disjointness Testing without Random Oracles
         Susan Hohenberger and Stephen A. Weis
    * A Flexible Framework for Secret Handshakes
         Gene Tsudik and Shouhuai Xu
    * Optimal Key-Trees for Tree-Based Private Authentication
         Levente Buttyan, Tamas Holczer and Istvan Vajda
    * Simple and Flexible Private Revocation Checking
         John Solis and Gene Tsudik

Keynote speaker:

               The Missing Link

               Susan Landau

In recent decades, we have seen significant progress in the development of
tools to protect privacy.  We have similarly seen various policy
developments, e.g., the 1980 OECD Guidelines on Privacy Protection and 1997
application to the Internet.  But

             Between the conception
             And the creation
             Between the emotion
             And the response
             Falls the Shadow.
                    (T.S. Eliot, "The Hollow Men.")

One shadow is that while privacy policies abound, when data is collected,
there are few or no rules governing its security (which is a crucial
requirement for data privacy).  A current instance of this concerns the
recent requirement for data retention by the European Union.

This talk discusses what is needed to get to:

             Between the conception
             And the creation
             Between the emotion
             And the response
             Falls the Action.

Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Wed May 17 02:05:38 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:05:38 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] question - node throttling limit
Message-ID: <446A84F2.5050909@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

I'm really needing to constrain my bandwidth usage, since out here in
the boonies of the world, I'm paying $2/GB.

Question is - would setting 'node.outputBandwidthLimit' to 2K or even 1K
result in a node that essentially Doesn't Work (TM)?

Even at 2K, (assuming 2K downstream as well), this amounts to 10GB/month
= $20 surcharge.

If such throttling would cripple the node, what's the effective minimum
I could throttle it to while still having a working node?

-- 
Kind regards
David




From nextgens at freenetproject.org  Wed May 17 05:28:28 2006
From: nextgens at freenetproject.org (Florent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Daigni=E8re_=28NextGen$=29?=)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:28:28 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] question - node throttling limit
In-Reply-To: <446A84F2.5050909@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <446A84F2.5050909@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060517052827.GA31787@freenetproject.org>

* David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> [2006-05-17 14:05:38]:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm really needing to constrain my bandwidth usage, since out here in
> the boonies of the world, I'm paying $2/GB.
> 
> Question is - would setting 'node.outputBandwidthLimit' to 2K or even 1K
> result in a node that essentially Doesn't Work (TM)?
> 
> Even at 2K, (assuming 2K downstream as well), this amounts to 10GB/month
> = $20 surcharge.
> 
> If such throttling would cripple the node, what's the effective minimum
> I could throttle it to while still having a working node?

It depends on the number of peers you have.

Imho 2K limit is hardly usable. Remember that the setting is a
HARDLIMIT.

NextGen$
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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Wed May 17 22:33:47 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:33:47 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freesitemgr - freesite insertion app
Message-ID: <446BA4CB.10806@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi all,

Thanks to recent fixes in 0.7 (r8751 and later), I am now in a position
to announce the release of 'freesitemgr', a simple console-based
freesite management application.

freesitemgr allows for easy creation and insertion of new freesites, and
based on site hashes, intelligently reinserts existing freesites when
changes are detected.

freesitemgr is released as part of pyfcp, whose official freesite is now:

USK at T4gW1EvwSrR9AOlBT2hFnWy5wK0rtd5rGhf6bp75tVo,E9uFCy0NhiTbR0jVQkY77doaWtxTrkS9kuMrzOtNzSQ,AQABAAE/pyfcp/1

(note URI change - previous URI was compromised by my carelessness with
a bug posting).

Also, the pyfcp freesite is mirrored on
http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/pyfcp

Any bugs, queries, issues, suggestions etc, please email me

-- 
Kind regards
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Thu May 18 00:54:14 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:54:14 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freesitemgr - freesite insertion app
Message-ID: <446BC5B6.1090405@rebirthing.co.nz>

(apologies if you're seeing this twice - I posted before and it didn't
seem to get through)

Hi all,

Thanks to recent fixes in 0.7 (r8751 and later), I am now able
to announce the release of 'freesitemgr', a simple console-based
freesite management application.

freesitemgr allows for easy creation and insertion of new freesites, and
based on site hashes, intelligently reinserts existing freesites when
changes are detected.

freesitemgr is released as part of pyfcp, whose official freesite is now:

freenet:USK at T4gW1EvwSrR9AOlBT2hFnWy5wK0rtd5rGhf6bp75tVo,E9uFCy0NhiTbR0jVQkY77doaWtxTrkS9kuMrzOtNzSQ,AQABAAE/pyfcp/1

(note URI change - previous URI was compromised by my carelessness with
a bug posting).

Also, the pyfcp freesite is mirrored on
http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/pyfcp

Any bugs, queries, issues, suggestions etc, please email me

-- 
Kind regards
David




From scout at hyperspace-travel.de  Fri May 19 19:36:13 2006
From: scout at hyperspace-travel.de (Helge Preuss)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:36:13 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just listened to the lecture about the new freenet version Ian
Clarke and Oskar Sandberg gave at the 22C3 (the CCC has released it:
http://media.ccc.de/filez/congress/2005/lectures/audio/vorbis/22C3-492-en-freenet_new_version.ogg).
It left open some questions for me.

I do not read the freenet mailing list regularly, so I apologize if
these questions have been asked before, but an explanation would be
nice anyway.

Ian and Oskar explained the routing model of freenet 0.7 and the
issues it aims to address. If I understood correctly, the point is to
connect only to trusted peers to ensure that no hostile nodes discover
you are running freenet (and possibly compromise the connection). The
reasoning behind this is that in repressive regimes running freenet
(and thereby communicating that you have something to hide) may be
enough in itself to get you into trouble.

While I agree with the premise, I have two issues with this.

One, can't everybody discover you run freenet by doing a portscan on
your computer? I assume that would be a more efficient way to
mass-detect freenet nodes than smuggling hostile nodes into freenet -
especially if you're a government agency with broad resources.

Two, they mentioned that a major aim is to get many people to run
freenet. That is obvious. But how would you achieve this goal if
people are forced to *personally know* other people connected to the
network? What do I do if I'm, say, a dissident with no special
knowledge of computers and no hacker friends either? Do I just give up
and sit on my single freenet node? Or do I turn to a centralized
service, thus rendering the web of trust obsolete?

Maybe (probably) I misunderstood something. But I don't see how the
two goals - trusted connections and wide coverage - go together. And
given that you can be detected with a portscan anyway, isn't it
practical just to forget about the web of trust and maximize coverage
instead?

Regards

Helge
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From scout at hyperspace-travel.de  Fri May 19 20:11:57 2006
From: scout at hyperspace-travel.de (Helge Preuss)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 22:11:57 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <e3ef62ef0605191252p5dc4b52at180f59c87945f662@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>	
	<446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
	<e3ef62ef0605191252p5dc4b52at180f59c87945f662@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <446E268D.8080302@hyperspace-travel.de>

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Lars Juel Nielsen wrote:
> On 5/19/06, Helge Preuss <scout at hyperspace-travel.de> wrote: I just
> listened to the lecture about the new freenet version Ian Clarke
> and Oskar Sandberg gave at the 22C3 (the CCC has released it:
> http://media.ccc.de/filez/congress/2005/lectures/audio/vorbis/22C3-492-en-freenet_new_version.ogg).
>  It left open some questions for me.
>
> I do not read the freenet mailing list regularly, so I apologize if
>  these questions have been asked before, but an explanation would
> be nice anyway.
>
> Ian and Oskar explained the routing model of freenet 0.7 and the
> issues it aims to address. If I understood correctly, the point is
> to connect only to trusted peers to ensure that no hostile nodes
> discover you are running freenet (and possibly compromise the
> connection). The reasoning behind this is that in repressive
> regimes running freenet (and thereby communicating that you have
> something to hide) may be enough in itself to get you into trouble.
>
>
> While I agree with the premise, I have two issues with this.
>
> One, can't everybody discover you run freenet by doing a portscan
> on your computer? I assume that would be a more efficient way to
> mass-detect freenet nodes than smuggling hostile nodes into freenet
> - especially if you're a government agency with broad resources.
>
> Two, they mentioned that a major aim is to get many people to run
> freenet. That is obvious. But how would you achieve this goal if
> people are forced to *personally know* other people connected to
> the network? What do I do if I'm, say, a dissident with no special
> knowledge of computers and no hacker friends either? Do I just give
> up and sit on my single freenet node? Or do I turn to a centralized
>  service, thus rendering the web of trust obsolete?
>
> Maybe (probably) I misunderstood something. But I don't see how the
>  two goals - trusted connections and wide coverage - go together.
> And given that you can be detected with a portscan anyway, isn't it
>  practical just to forget about the web of trust and maximize
> coverage instead?
>
> Regards
>
> Helge
>>>
> _______________________________________________ chat mailing list
> chat at freenetproject.org Archived:
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.general Unsubscribe at
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chat Or
> mailto:chat-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>>>
>
>> You're somewhat right about the trouble of getting connected,
>> while the net is small it'll be hard but as it grow chances are
>> better that you know someone who also use it.
Ah, but that's a fundamental problem: As long as you're small, it's
hard to grow. If you're large, growing is easier (until you reach a
saturation point, I guess).
Still, even if freenet grows, there will be many people who don't know
anyone with access to it (there are still many people around without a
GMail invite, too. And I dare to predict that freenet never will
achieve Google's market penetration).
At least, there should be some central servers to get newbies started.
>
>> About port scanning you're wrong, freenet use random ports.
>
>> And it is planned that it will be possible to use stegonography
>> later so the trafic would look like a game, VoIP or video
>> streaming so it'd be harder to automatically block it.
freenet may use random ports, but there still is a protocol behind it
which can be detected.
Using steganography is a nice idea and I'm sure it can protect against
traffic analysis, but I don't see how it can protect against a
connection request. Will freenet only accept connections from trusted
IPs? But then, what about dynamically assigned IPs?
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From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Fri May 19 22:00:07 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:00:07 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
Message-ID: <20060519220007.GA12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 09:36:13PM +0200, Helge Preuss wrote:
> 
> One, can't everybody discover you run freenet by doing a portscan on
> your computer? I assume that would be a more efficient way to
> mass-detect freenet nodes than smuggling hostile nodes into freenet -
> especially if you're a government agency with broad resources.

No. They can't.
> 
> Two, they mentioned that a major aim is to get many people to run
> freenet. That is obvious. But how would you achieve this goal if
> people are forced to *personally know* other people connected to the
> network? What do I do if I'm, say, a dissident with no special
> knowledge of computers and no hacker friends either?

You're in trouble in any case in that situation, because opennet *will
be harvested and blocked*. Last year the chinese blocked freenet 0.5, not
by harvesting, but by its protocol signature (that shouldn't be possible
with 0.7); they will harvest and block if they have to.

> Do I just give up
> and sit on my single freenet node? Or do I turn to a centralized
> service, thus rendering the web of trust obsolete?

The centralized service will be blocked.
> 
> Maybe (probably) I misunderstood something. But I don't see how the
> two goals - trusted connections and wide coverage - go together. And
> given that you can be detected with a portscan anyway, isn't it
> practical just to forget about the web of trust and maximize coverage
> instead?

No, *you cannot be detected with a portscan*. And if we were *only*
interested in numbers, we'd be building Kazaa, not Freenet.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Helge
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Fri May 19 22:01:03 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:01:03 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] is Publishing the only Freenet Killer App?
Message-ID: <446E401F.9020102@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

I've been reflecting on my years of intermittent involvement with the
freenet project, and trying to look at the bigger picture of Freenet's
place in the world, and the technical capabilities and limitations which
arise from Freenet's architectural model.

It feels clear to me that the ability to publish and retrieve freesites
and single content files anonymously is the One Great Freenet Killer App.

Publishing of freesites, as well as casual publishing/retrievable of
single content files like images, documents etc, is extremely scalable.
Flogs (freenet weblogs) are scalable because they can work like
freesites. Even RSS feeds are scalable.

My question is - are there any other uses of freenet which, in
real-world practical terms (with n percent of nodes running transiently,
and m percent of nodes on limited bandwidth), can perform effectively
and reliably at scale?

I ask, because after getting my pyfcp lib into a stable state, as well
as the 'freesitemgr' freesite insertion client app, I'm feeling a bit
dry on ideas at the moment.

I've thought of resurrecting FreeMail, and adapting it to the new FCP
interface, but I'm concerned about the fact that its design is based on
relentless KSK@ queue thrashing. I don't even know if FreeMail is
scalable. It certainly didn't work in Freenet 0.4-0.5. I tried several
retry algos, but none of these managed to lift it into a state where
message delivery became reliable. So I'm concerned about the possible
detrimental effect that a rebirthed FreeMail could have on the
fledgeling 0.7 network.

Is there scope to talk about a new keytype, something like a QSK@ (queue
space key), which would spare nodes and the greater network from being
hammered by endless ClientGet requests for mostly nonexistent KSKs?

A native queue-oriented key type, optimally supported within the core
node, would IMHO open up a lot of scope for new application concepts for
freenet.

Your thoughts?

-- 
Cheers
David




From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Fri May 19 22:05:37 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:05:37 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <446E268D.8080302@hyperspace-travel.de>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
	<e3ef62ef0605191252p5dc4b52at180f59c87945f662@mail.gmail.com>
	<446E268D.8080302@hyperspace-travel.de>
Message-ID: <20060519220537.GB12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 10:11:57PM +0200, Helge Preuss wrote:
> >
> >> You're somewhat right about the trouble of getting connected,
> >> while the net is small it'll be hard but as it grow chances are
> >> better that you know someone who also use it.
> Ah, but that's a fundamental problem: As long as you're small, it's
> hard to grow. If you're large, growing is easier (until you reach a
> saturation point, I guess).
> Still, even if freenet grows, there will be many people who don't know
> anyone with access to it (there are still many people around without a
> GMail invite, too. And I dare to predict that freenet never will
> achieve Google's market penetration).
> At least, there should be some central servers to get newbies started.

There is, in effect. Most people get connections from #freenet-refs on
irc. :( But the hope is that the network will grow organically once we
have a bootstrapping core.

> >> About port scanning you're wrong, freenet use random ports.
> >
> >> And it is planned that it will be possible to use stegonography
> >> later so the trafic would look like a game, VoIP or video
> >> streaming so it'd be harder to automatically block it.

> freenet may use random ports, but there still is a protocol behind it
> which can be detected.

> Using steganography is a nice idea and I'm sure it can protect against
> traffic analysis, but I don't see how it can protect against a
> connection request. Will freenet only accept connections from trusted
> IPs? But then, what about dynamically assigned IPs?

Protecting from a connection attempt is actually very easy with UDP. It
is not possible to get a Freenet node to say *anything* if you don't
have its node reference already. At present, it also has to have your
node reference for connection setup to start; with the eventual opennet
version (yes there will be an opennet version; opennet ~= freenet 0.5;
peers are discovered automatically once you're on the network), you will
only need its noderef. It's harder to do this on TCP, but still possible
if we proxy a legitimate TCP service such as a web server.

It may well be possible to detect freenet traffic at a router level, but
this is not the same thing as portscanning; it is FAR more expensive.
And at that point we can indeed have stego. And no, it can't perfectly
protect against traffic analysis. But we can make a start, and make
things difficult for our adversary.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From scout at hyperspace-travel.de  Fri May 19 22:28:54 2006
From: scout at hyperspace-travel.de (Helge Preuss)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 00:28:54 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <20060519220007.GA12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
	<20060519220007.GA12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <446E46A6.60609@hyperspace-travel.de>

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Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 09:36:13PM +0200, Helge Preuss wrote:
>> One, can't everybody discover you run freenet by doing a portscan on
>> your computer? I assume that would be a more efficient way to
>> mass-detect freenet nodes than smuggling hostile nodes into freenet -
>> especially if you're a government agency with broad resources.
>
> No. They can't.
Why not? There must be some protocol freenet clients (or peers) use to
communicate, right? If you initiate that protocol for every port, you
must find a running freenet client, right?
>> Two, they mentioned that a major aim is to get many people to run
>> freenet. That is obvious. But how would you achieve this goal if
>> people are forced to *personally know* other people connected to the
>> network? What do I do if I'm, say, a dissident with no special
>> knowledge of computers and no hacker friends either?
>
> You're in trouble in any case in that situation, because opennet *will
> be harvested and blocked*. Last year the chinese blocked freenet 0.5, not
> by harvesting, but by its protocol signature (that shouldn't be possible
> with 0.7); they will harvest and block if they have to.
>
>> Do I just give up
>> and sit on my single freenet node? Or do I turn to a centralized
>> service, thus rendering the web of trust obsolete?
>
> The centralized service will be blocked.
True. So I just forget about it?
>> Maybe (probably) I misunderstood something. But I don't see how the
>> two goals - trusted connections and wide coverage - go together. And
>> given that you can be detected with a portscan anyway, isn't it
>> practical just to forget about the web of trust and maximize coverage
>> instead?
>
> No, *you cannot be detected with a portscan*. And if we were *only*
> interested in numbers, we'd be building Kazaa, not Freenet.
Kazaa might be not such a bad idea. If everybody and their grandma
were running freenet, using it would not be suspicious and it would
work much better (disregarding scaling issues which might turn up with
such a large user base).
Seriously though, how do you plan to *ever* achieve a significant
coverage (and make a significant contribution to privacy in this
world) if you put off newbies?
It's not that I have answers, just trying to understand.
>> Regards
>>
>> Helge

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From scout at hyperspace-travel.de  Fri May 19 23:12:03 2006
From: scout at hyperspace-travel.de (Helge Preuss)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 01:12:03 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Web-of-trust questions
In-Reply-To: <20060519220537.GB12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <4469C2F2.9060207@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<446E1E2D.4030007@hyperspace-travel.de>
	<e3ef62ef0605191252p5dc4b52at180f59c87945f662@mail.gmail.com>
	<446E268D.8080302@hyperspace-travel.de>
	<20060519220537.GB12123@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <446E50C3.4050809@hyperspace-travel.de>

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Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 10:11:57PM +0200, Helge Preuss wrote:
>>>> You're somewhat right about the trouble of getting connected,
>>>>  while the net is small it'll be hard but as it grow chances
>>>> are better that you know someone who also use it.
>> Ah, but that's a fundamental problem: As long as you're small,
>> it's hard to grow. If you're large, growing is easier (until you
>> reach a saturation point, I guess). Still, even if freenet grows,
>> there will be many people who don't know anyone with access to it
>> (there are still many people around without a GMail invite, too.
>> And I dare to predict that freenet never will achieve Google's
>> market penetration). At least, there should be some central
>> servers to get newbies started.
>
> There is, in effect. Most people get connections from #freenet-refs
> on irc. :( But the hope is that the network will grow organically
> once we have a bootstrapping core.
I don't see why you pull a face :( there.
The only reason I can guess is that you fear the introduction of
hostile nodes into the net. You're in danger of  connecting to people
who might set you up. But this can happen in Real Life too. I don't
know any other numbers, but the GDR had over a million secret police
agents, with a total population of about 16 million. So there is no
guarantee at all that the person you "know", who introduces you to
freenet, isn't a government agent (or whoever else is the enemy in
your case).
Now I haven't thought this through (and I've had a beer in the
meantime, so forgive me if I'm being stupid). I only have the tor
network as a comparison, and there the introduction of hostile nodes
is not a critical blow. True, every malicious node decreases
anonymity, but only if every node from the entry to the exit node is
hostile, the anonymity is blown. Of course, if there is only one true
node left, it might be easy to subpoena it.
How vulnerable against hostile nodes is freenet? As a rule of thumb?
>
>>>> About port scanning you're wrong, freenet use random ports.
>>>> And it is planned that it will be possible to use
>>>> stegonography later so the trafic would look like a game,
>>>> VoIP or video streaming so it'd be harder to automatically
>>>> block it.
>
>> freenet may use random ports, but there still is a protocol
>> behind it which can be detected.
>
>> Using steganography is a nice idea and I'm sure it can protect
>> against traffic analysis, but I don't see how it can protect
>> against a connection request. Will freenet only accept
>> connections from trusted IPs? But then, what about dynamically
>> assigned IPs?
>
> Protecting from a connection attempt is actually very easy with
> UDP. It is not possible to get a Freenet node to say *anything* if
> you don't have its node reference already. At present, it also has
> to have your node reference for connection setup to start; with the
> eventual opennet version (yes there will be an opennet version;
> opennet ~= freenet 0.5; peers are discovered automatically once
> you're on the network), you will only need its noderef. It's harder
> to do this on TCP, but still possible if we proxy a legitimate TCP
> service such as a web server.
>
> It may well be possible to detect freenet traffic at a router
> level, but this is not the same thing as portscanning; it is FAR
> more expensive. And at that point we can indeed have stego. And no,
> it can't perfectly protect against traffic analysis. But we can
> make a start, and make things difficult for our adversary.
After all, I have to admit: I think that's all one can ever hope for.
There's no perfect protection.

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From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Sun May 21 02:27:50 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 14:27:50 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: pyfcp 0.1.3
Message-ID: <446FD026.4070105@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

I've just released PyFCP version 0.1.3

Changes:
 - added 'fcpget' and 'fcpput' command-line apps for key retrieve
   and insert
 - minor bug fixes

Tarball, including installer, available from the PyFCP sites:

http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/pyfcp

freenet:USK at T4gW1EvwSrR9AOlBT2hFnWy5wK0rtd5rGhf6bp75tVo,E9uFCy0NhiTbR0jVQkY77doaWtxTrkS9kuMrzOtNzSQ,AQABAAE/pyfcp/5

Please give me a yell if you find bugs, or want extra features...

-- 
Kind regards
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Mon May 22 20:38:17 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:38:17 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
Message-ID: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

Your ideas are needed.

I'm in the early stages of implementing a linux filesystem for freenet,
based on the FUSE (userspace filesystem) framework.

The idea is to empower users and app developers, so they can type:

  $ mount -t freenetfs /dev/fuse /mnt/freenet -o <options>

or alternatively, have in their /etc/fstab the entry:

  /dev/fuse /mnt/freenet freenetfs <options> 0 0

and end up with freenet mounted at /mnt/freenet

The purpose is to allow seamless integration with freenet of any
application which accesses the filesystem. One use of this would be
allowing people to edit sensitive OpenOffice documents, and store
the files completely within freenet, and allow others to read these
anonymously.

So far, I'm thinking through some options for a directory tree model,
and here's what I've got so far:

  /
     - the root (d'oh)
  /keys/
     - returns empty directory listing
  /keys/KSK at somekey
  /keys/SSK at anotherkey/name
  /keys/USK at yetanotherkey/name/version
  /keys/CHK at yetanotherfreakinkey
     - performs a GET of the given key from freenet, and allows it
       to be read like a file. First line is <mimetype>\n
  /privatekeys/SSK at anotherkeyprivate/name
     - the filename 'SSK at anotherkeyprivate' is the private key
       corresponding to /keys/SSK at anotherkey/name
     - reading from this file produces a single line, the equivalent
       public key
     - writing to this file performs a freenet PUT. First line written
       should be <mimetype>\n, then the raw key data
  /cmd/
     - a pseudo-directory allowing commands to be sent to the fs, via
       reading/writing pseudo-files
  /cmd/genkey
     - reading this file produces an SSK@ keypair
  /usr/
     - contains a set of named subdirectories, where the mapping of
       physical freenet key to logical name is governed by config
       file settings, such as:

         [userdirs]
         fred=freenet:USK at privateblah1/name
         mary=freenet:USK at privateblah2/name

       so reads from '/usr/fred/' become a read to
       '/keys/USK at publicblah1/name, and writes to /usr/fred
       become a write to '/privatekeys/USK at privateblah1'.

If anyone gets some ideas to improve this model, please reply to this
thread.

-- 
Cheers
David



From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Mon May 22 22:12:04 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:12:04 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/22/06, David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> wrote:
>   /keys/CHK at yetanotherfreakinkey
>      - performs a GET of the given key from freenet, and allows it
>        to be read like a file. First line is <mimetype>\n
>   /privatekeys/SSK at anotherkeyprivate/name
>      - the filename 'SSK at anotherkeyprivate' is the private key
>        corresponding to /keys/SSK at anotherkey/name
>      - reading from this file produces a single line, the equivalent
>        public key
>      - writing to this file performs a freenet PUT. First line written
>        should be <mimetype>\n, then the raw key data

I don't like the idea of the MIME type being the first line of the
file; it's something that will have to be stripped when the file is
moved to the rest of the system or worked on by standard programs.

I'd rather have a directory for each key.  Assuming the freenet fs has
been mounted on /freenet, downloads would look like:
	$ cd /freenet/downloads
	$ mkdir CHK at keystring; cd CHK at keystring
	$ tail status
	<lots of messages>
	done
	$ cat mimetype
	text/plain
	$ cat name
	dissident_report
	$ cat data > ~/`cat name`
	$ ls ~/dis*
	/usr/glenda/dissident_report
	$

And uploads would look like:
	$ cd /freenet/uploads
	$ cat new
	42
	$ cd 42
	$ cat text/plain > mimetype
	$ cat ~/manifesto > data
	$ tail status
	<various messages>
	done
	$ cat key
	CHK at keystring
	$

The influence of Plan 9 (the original source of user-space
filesystems) may be visible here.

--Joel

From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Mon May 22 22:14:12 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:14:12 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605221514l2a45323ct721e3e0b84a4c09b@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/22/06, David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> wrote:
>   /keys/CHK at yetanotherfreakinkey
>      - performs a GET of the given key from freenet, and allows it
>        to be read like a file. First line is <mimetype>\n
>   /privatekeys/SSK at anotherkeyprivate/name
>      - the filename 'SSK at anotherkeyprivate' is the private key
>        corresponding to /keys/SSK at anotherkey/name
>      - reading from this file produces a single line, the equivalent
>        public key
>      - writing to this file performs a freenet PUT. First line written
>        should be <mimetype>\n, then the raw key data

I don't like the idea of the MIME type being the first line of the
file; it's something that will have to be stripped when the file is
moved to the rest of the system or worked on by standard programs.

I'd rather have a directory for each key.  Assuming the freenet fs has
been mounted on /freenet, downloads would look like:
	$ cd /freenet/downloads
	$ mkdir CHK at keystring; cd CHK at keystring
	$ tail status
	<lots of messages>
	done
	$ cat mimetype
	text/plain
	$ cat name
	dissident_report
	$ cat data > ~/`cat name`
	$ ls ~/dis*
	/usr/glenda/dissident_report
	$

And uploads would look like:
	$ cd /freenet/uploads
	$ cat new
	42
	$ cd 42
	$ cat text/plain > mimetype
	$ cat ~/manifesto > data
	$ tail status
	<various messages>
	done
	$ cat key
	CHK at keystring
	$

The influence of Plan 9 (the original source of user-space
filesystems) may be visible here.

--Joel

From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Mon May 22 22:19:22 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:19:22 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605221519h611834f6m9390975856025462@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/22/06, Joel Salomon <joelcsalomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd rather have a directory for each key.  Assuming the freenet fs has
> been mounted on /freenet, downloads would look like:
>         $ cd /freenet/downloads
>         $ mkdir CHK at keystring; cd CHK at keystring
>         $ tail status
>         <lots of messages>
>         done

On second thought, that might be:
	$ cd /freenet/downloads
	$ mkdir CHK at keystring; cd CHK at keystring
	$ cat status
	<some message saying that the key is well formed>
	$ echo 'start' > ctl
	$ tail status
	<lots of messages>
	done
	?
but the basic idea is there.

--Joel

From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Mon May 22 23:05:26 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:05:26 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060522230525.GA4166@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 06:12:04PM -0400, Joel Salomon wrote:
> On 5/22/06, David McNab <david at rebirthing.co.nz> wrote:
> >  /keys/CHK at yetanotherfreakinkey
> >     - performs a GET of the given key from freenet, and allows it
> >       to be read like a file. First line is <mimetype>\n
> >  /privatekeys/SSK at anotherkeyprivate/name
> >     - the filename 'SSK at anotherkeyprivate' is the private key
> >       corresponding to /keys/SSK at anotherkey/name
> >     - reading from this file produces a single line, the equivalent
> >       public key
> >     - writing to this file performs a freenet PUT. First line written
> >       should be <mimetype>\n, then the raw key data
> 
> I don't like the idea of the MIME type being the first line of the
> file; it's something that will have to be stripped when the file is
> moved to the rest of the system or worked on by standard programs.

It can be an extended attribute, no? Doesn't FUSE support these now?

I believe there are some problems with Reiser4-style file-as-directory,
otherwise that would be perfect.

Oh and you shouldn't have to mkdir for a get!
> 
> The influence of Plan 9 (the original source of user-space
> filesystems) may be visible here.
> 
> --Joel
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Tue May 23 00:03:29 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:03:29 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20060522230525.GA4166@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060522230525.GA4166@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605221703i55b54d46n1c1757a250f0e71e@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/22/06, Matthew Toseland <toad at amphibian.dyndns.org> wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 06:12:04PM -0400, Joel Salomon wrote:
> > I don't like the idea of the MIME type being the first line of the
> > file; it's something that will have to be stripped when the file is
> > moved to the rest of the system or worked on by standard programs.
>
> It can be an extended attribute, no? Doesn't FUSE support these now?

If the MIME type is essential to Freenet's handling of the file, have
it in a separate file so the concept is portable to OSes beyond
Linux/FUSE.  If it's just a frill, put it in an extended attitbute if
you like, but not in the file text itself.

> Oh and you shouldn't have to mkdir for a get!

Why not?  The directory is just an abstraction in memory; no disc
directory is being created.  (Unless FUSE has some fundamental design
flaws.)

> > The influence of Plan 9 (the original source of user-space
> > filesystems) may be visible here.

--Joel

From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Tue May 23 01:50:02 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:50:02 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] FreenetFS (freenet filesystem) WIKI
Message-ID: <44726A4A.1050903@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi,

Since my mention of freenetfs has aroused some discussion and worthy
thoughts, it felt right to put up a wiki page.

The page is FreenetFS (http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetFS), and is
linked from the 'Specifications' page which is linked from the main wiki
page.

All sane (and productively insane) contributions welcome. Simplicity,
elegance and intuitiveness preferred.

-- 
Kind regards
David



From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Tue May 23 15:38:54 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:38:54 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605221703i55b54d46n1c1757a250f0e71e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060522230525.GA4166@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<7871fcf50605221703i55b54d46n1c1757a250f0e71e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>

On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 08:03:29PM -0400, Joel Salomon wrote:
> On 5/22/06, Matthew Toseland <toad at amphibian.dyndns.org> wrote:
> >On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 06:12:04PM -0400, Joel Salomon wrote:
> >> I don't like the idea of the MIME type being the first line of the
> >> file; it's something that will have to be stripped when the file is
> >> moved to the rest of the system or worked on by standard programs.
> >
> >It can be an extended attribute, no? Doesn't FUSE support these now?
> 
> If the MIME type is essential to Freenet's handling of the file, have
> it in a separate file so the concept is portable to OSes beyond
> Linux/FUSE.  If it's just a frill, put it in an extended attitbute if
> you like, but not in the file text itself.

It's essential _to fproxy_ for safe handling of files. For many other
uses it's not essential.
> 
> >Oh and you shouldn't have to mkdir for a get!
> 
> Why not?  The directory is just an abstraction in memory; no disc
> directory is being created.  (Unless FUSE has some fundamental design
> flaws.)

Well sure but it's more intuitive if you are able to just do
/freenet/KSK at gpl.txt - or at least /freenet/quick/KSK at gpl.txt (I accept
that some files will take *ages* to fetch and so need a different API).
> 
> >> The influence of Plan 9 (the original source of user-space
> >> filesystems) may be visible here.

Of course. :)
> 
> --Joel
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Tue May 23 16:45:42 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:45:42 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<7871fcf50605221512q82f6a74qe18cc127df5da4ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060522230525.GA4166@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<7871fcf50605221703i55b54d46n1c1757a250f0e71e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605230945o296aabena97f8041679f73a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/06, Matthew Toseland <toad at amphibian.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > >Oh and you shouldn't have to mkdir for a get!
> >
> > Why not?  The directory is just an abstraction in memory; no disc
> > directory is being created.
>
> Well sure but it's more intuitive if you are able to just do
> /freenet/KSK at gpl.txt - or at least /freenet/quick/KSK at gpl.txt (I accept
> that some files will take *ages* to fetch and so need a different API).

That depends on the intended use; do we want to make the Freenet key
space to look like an extension of the file system, or do we want a
file-like, scriptable, interface to the network?

I rather suspect you'd need some *ugly* ioctl to make the
/freenet/KSK at gpl.txt interface work for large files or SSKs.  How do
you report "bad key format" or "splitfile error" or any
Freenet-specific error with the simple FS interface?

--Joel

From droden at gmail.com  Tue May 23 18:02:01 2006
From: droden at gmail.com (David 'Bombe' Roden)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:02:01 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605230945o296aabena97f8041679f73a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<7871fcf50605230945o296aabena97f8041679f73a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 23 May 2006 18:45, Joel Salomon wrote:

> How do you report "bad key format" or "splitfile error" or any 
> Freenet-specific error with the simple FS interface? 

That's easy.

return false;


> --Joel

	David
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From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Tue May 23 20:22:36 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:22:36 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>
	<7871fcf50605230945o296aabena97f8041679f73a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/06, David 'Bombe' Roden <droden at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 18:45, Joel Salomon wrote:
> > How do you report "bad key format" or "splitfile error" or any
> > Freenet-specific error with the simple FS interface?
>
> That's easy.
>
> return false;

And how do you report *which* error it was?  (Is it worth retrying the
file, or checking for a mis-copied key, or what?)

--Joel

From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Tue May 23 21:28:32 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:28:32 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>	<20060523153854.GA3458@amphibian.dyndns.org>	<7871fcf50605230945o296aabena97f8041679f73a3@mail.gmail.com>	<200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>
	<7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44737E80.5020408@rebirthing.co.nz>

Joel Salomon wrote:
>> > How do you report "bad key format" or "splitfile error" or any
>> > Freenet-specific error with the simple FS interface?
>>
>> That's easy.
>> return false;
> 
> And how do you report *which* error it was?  (Is it worth retrying the
> file, or checking for a mis-copied key, or what?)

One idea that comes to me is to allow read of /errors/read/KSK at blah

I'm intending to keep a memory cache of recent requests, keyed by URI,
such that this error info can be reliably retrieved.

Another thought is to cache some retrieved keys into the host
filesystem, with hashed filenames and encrypted contents, to speed up
performance.

Anyway, if you refer to the wiki page I put up (FreenetFS), you'll see
that the mimetype issue has been addressed.

Any further thoughts, either as replies to this thread, or hacks to the
wiki page, are most welcome.

Thanks for the input so far. Please keep it coming.

-- 
Kind regards
David



From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Wed May 24 00:03:10 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 01:03:10 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] [steve@einval.com: Moving irc.debian.org to OFTC]
Message-ID: <20060524000310.GA3692@amphibian.dyndns.org>

This is likely relevant to many here.

----- Forwarded message from Steve McIntyre <steve at einval.com> -----

From: Steve McIntyre <steve at einval.com>
To: debian-devel-announce at lists.debian.org
Subject: Moving irc.debian.org to OFTC

For a long time, irc.debian.org has been provided as a service by
Freenode [1], the well-known Free Software friendly IRC network.
However, as time has passed, more and more of our discussions have
instead been taking place on OFTC, the Open and Free Technology
Community [2]. In recognition of that, we have decided to move the
irc.debian.org alias over to use OFTC. OFTC is also a sister
organisation of Debian, as both are supported and represented by
Software in the Public Interest, Inc. [3]

We wish to thank Freenode for their support over the years, and wish
them every success in the future.

IRC clients configured to connect to irc.debian.org (as with most IRC
clients packaged in Debian) should need no changes by users wishing to
follow the changeover, but long-running clients may need to be
reconnected or restarted. Developers will be on hand in most of the
common development channels on both networks in case any help is
needed.

The date of this network changeover will be Sunday the 4th of
June. The change may take a few hours to propagate through the DNS
system on that day.

[1] http://freenode.net/
[2] http://www.oftc.net/oftc/
[3] http://www.spi-inc.org/

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve at einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html



----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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From droden at gmail.com  Wed May 24 22:30:07 2006
From: droden at gmail.com (David 'Bombe' Roden)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 00:30:07 +0200
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>
	<7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200605250030.10238.droden@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 23 May 2006 22:22, Joel Salomon wrote:

> > return false;
> And how do you report *which* error it was?  (Is it worth retrying
> the file, or checking for a mis-copied key, or what?)

If I want to access a file and it doesn't work I'll try again. If that 
doesn't work either I'll let it be and do something else. I don't 
especially care why it doesn't work.

If I want to access freenet more reliably I'd use FCP.


> --Joel

	David
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From freenet-chat at david.sowder.com  Wed May 24 23:02:28 2006
From: freenet-chat at david.sowder.com (David Sowder (Zothar))
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:02:28 -0500
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <200605250030.10238.droden@gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>	<200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>	<7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<200605250030.10238.droden@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4474E604.2090603@david.sowder.com>

David 'Bombe' Roden wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 22:22, Joel Salomon wrote:
>
>   
>>> return false;
>>>       
>> And how do you report *which* error it was?  (Is it worth retrying
>> the file, or checking for a mis-copied key, or what?)
>>     
>
> If I want to access a file and it doesn't work I'll try again. If that 
> doesn't work either I'll let it be and do something else. I don't 
> especially care why it doesn't work.
>
> If I want to access freenet more reliably I'd use FCP.
>
>   
Perhaps an interface where you request the key and either get it or not 
and the other interface where you have a "file" for the latest status 
(and all the other things already mentioned).   (I would probably use 
the later myself.)


From joelcsalomon at gmail.com  Thu May 25 00:10:22 2006
From: joelcsalomon at gmail.com (Joel Salomon)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:10:22 -0400
Subject: [freenet-chat] Towards a Freenet Filesystem
In-Reply-To: <200605250030.10238.droden@gmail.com>
References: <44722139.1070304@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<200605232002.04055.droden@gmail.com>
	<7871fcf50605231322s182d3e33w4ba0ee03fdf794cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<200605250030.10238.droden@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7871fcf50605241710v513e467ex3c9c06e06fb1d791@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/24/06, David 'Bombe' Roden <droden at gmail.com> wrote:
> If I want to access freenet more reliably I'd use FCP.

Seems I misunderstood the project; I was thinking this would be a
filesystem-like interface to FCP.

--Joel

From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Fri May 26 02:33:42 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:33:42 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freedisk (freenet filesystem) pre-alpha
Message-ID: <44766906.1050906@rebirthing.co.nz>

Hi all,

I've checked into the svn repo a first hack at 'freedisk', which is an
implementation of a linux filesystem over freenet (using the FUSE framework)

So far, it's only a partial implementation. I've announced it at this
premature stage in the hope that some brave soul might be persuaded to
take it for a spin, and report any hassles that arise from (attempts to)
install it and get it going.

It's way easy to set up on debian, because all the dependencies are in
the debian feeds already (libfuse2, python-fuse, fuse-source). Users of
other distros may or may not incur a bit of head-scratching, depending
on the distro.

This partial implementation of freedisk is only capable of:

 - generating new keypairs (cat /mnt/freenet/cmd/genkeypair)

 - retrieving simple URIs (cat /mnt/freenet/keys/KSK at hello),
   as long as the URIs don't contain slashes

Next stages will include:
 - error logging/retrieval
 - basic key insert
 - CHK insertion and URI retrieval
 - asymmetrical key insertions (SSK@, SRK@, USK@ etc)
 - directories over freenet, via USKs

-- 
Cheers
David



From conrads at cox.net  Fri May 26 02:44:55 2006
From: conrads at cox.net (Conrad J. Sabatier)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:44:55 -0500
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freedisk (freenet filesystem) pre-alpha
In-Reply-To: <44766906.1050906@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <44766906.1050906@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20060525214455.3b59df85@serene.no-ip.org>

On Fri, 26 May 2006 14:33:42 +1200, David McNab
<david at rebirthing.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I've checked into the svn repo a first hack at 'freedisk', which is an
> implementation of a linux filesystem over freenet (using the FUSE
> framework)
> 
> So far, it's only a partial implementation. I've announced it at this
> premature stage in the hope that some brave soul might be persuaded to
> take it for a spin, and report any hassles that arise from (attempts
> to) install it and get it going.
> 
> It's way easy to set up on debian, because all the dependencies are in
> the debian feeds already (libfuse2, python-fuse, fuse-source). Users
> of other distros may or may not incur a bit of head-scratching,
> depending on the distro.
> 
> This partial implementation of freedisk is only capable of:
> 
>  - generating new keypairs (cat /mnt/freenet/cmd/genkeypair)
> 
>  - retrieving simple URIs (cat /mnt/freenet/keys/KSK at hello),
>    as long as the URIs don't contain slashes
> 
> Next stages will include:
>  - error logging/retrieval
>  - basic key insert
>  - CHK insertion and URI retrieval
>  - asymmetrical key insertions (SSK@, SRK@, USK@ etc)
>  - directories over freenet, via USKs

Not intended in any way to detract from your work, but what is the
intended purpose or use for this?

-- 
Conrad J. Sabatier <conrads at cox.net> -- "In Unix veritas"


From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Fri May 26 08:28:26 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:28:26 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freedisk (freenet filesystem) pre-alpha
In-Reply-To: <20060525214455.3b59df85@serene.no-ip.org>
References: <44766906.1050906@rebirthing.co.nz>
	<20060525214455.3b59df85@serene.no-ip.org>
Message-ID: <4476BC2A.5090504@rebirthing.co.nz>

Conrad J. Sabatier wrote:
> Not intended in any way to detract from your work, but what is the
> intended purpose or use for this?

Not intended in any way to detract from your question, but does it matter?

-- 
Kind regards
David



From david at rebirthing.co.nz  Fri May 26 11:36:47 2006
From: david at rebirthing.co.nz (David McNab)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:36:47 +1200
Subject: [freenet-chat] ANN: freedisk (freenet filesystem) pre-alpha
In-Reply-To: <4476BC2A.5090504@rebirthing.co.nz>
References: <44766906.1050906@rebirthing.co.nz>	<20060525214455.3b59df85@serene.no-ip.org>
	<4476BC2A.5090504@rebirthing.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4476E84F.5060901@rebirthing.co.nz>

David McNab wrote:
> Conrad J. Sabatier wrote:
>> Not intended in any way to detract from your work, but what is the
>> intended purpose or use for this?
> 
> Not intended in any way to detract from your question, but does it matter?

Well, for a more constructive answer - what I'm hoping is to work
towards a 'virtual disk in freenet' kind of idea.

The longer range aim is where a user can create a SSK keypair, and store
this encrypted on their PC. Upon entry of a passphrase, the filesystem
would hold the decrypted keypair in memory, and use it (as USK@ keys) to
implement a hierarchy of files/directories totally within freenet.

In concept, it would work a little bit like PGPdisk, but with all
content distributed throughout the freenet. The user would be able to
use their familiar applications (eg OpenOffice) and save documents
within their freenetfs directory. For instance, saving a document to
/mnt/freenet/mydir/documents/protest-plan.doc, would result in such
'file' being inserted into freenet as a CHK@, then added to the manifest
for their private USK@ key, then the manifest reinserted upon sync.
OpenOffice would be none the wiser.

In addition, the user would be at liberty to disclose his public key to
others, to give others the ability to 'mount' the directory readonly.
Also, maybe give some trusted others the private key to allow them to
mount the directory read/write.

It's early days yet. I'm still sorting through options for how to do
these 'directory mounts' *within* the freenetfs.

Cheers
David



From toad at amphibian.dyndns.org  Mon May 29 20:42:07 2006
From: toad at amphibian.dyndns.org (Matthew Toseland)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 21:42:07 +0100
Subject: [freenet-chat] My GPG key has changed
Message-ID: <20060529204207.GA15928@amphibian.dyndns.org>

My GPG key has changed. I apologize if you see this as spam. :) The new
one, and the signature from the old one, are attached.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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