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[0:14] <Revo33> low
[0:14] <Revo33> on everything
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[2:37] <popcorn99> hi
[2:38] <popcorn99> anyone here willing to answer a question about ip static vs dynamic?
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[2:48] <popcorn99> hi, i got this error tonight while trying to access the README file on .5 :
[2:48] <popcorn99>
[2:48] <popcorn99> Network Error
[2:48] <popcorn99>
[2:48] <popcorn99>
[2:48] <popcorn99>
[2:48] <popcorn99> Couldn't retrieve key: CHK@ix0Z0wFt5jfWFGmbIZaLud%7eVOIsPAwI%2c2MBdgGPT57XMzl0AxpSKyA
[2:48] <popcorn99> Hops To Live: 18
[2:48] <popcorn99> Error: Data Not Found
[2:48] <popcorn99> Data Not Found messages mean that your request passed through Hops-To-Live nodes without finding the data. It may simply not be there, but you can try again, possibly with a higher Hops-To-Live (which will make freenet try more nodes before giving up).
[2:48] <popcorn99> Change Hops To Live to and ..
[2:48] <popcorn99> is this indicative of a real problem for sure?
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[3:49] <Luke771> Revo33: around?
[3:51] <Luke771> popcorn99: forget 0.5
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[5:42] <Derk> hey I have a q... it's been a month or two since I even had freenet running. I stopped it when it kept trying to download and install a new version and was really kiling my system since it was going through and cleaning up the 10gb cache/keys and stuff
[5:43] <Derk> anyway I turned it back on and it told me it was so old it couldn't even get the new version... so I uninstalled and reinstalled
[5:43] <Derk> but the config is really odd... like I don't even see a spot to put in how many gigs I want to use for my local store
[5:44] <Derk> and it seems to be perpetually "connecting" to other nodes... you know the "The node is trying to connect to the network, it will be slow for a while" message
[5:44] <Derk> I poked the requisite holed in my router
[5:44] <Derk> holes
[5:45] <Derk> any idea what's up?
[5:45] <Derk> I can't imagine the local data store is totally gone now
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[6:02] <Luke771> Derk: run the update script
[6:02] <Derk> update script?
[6:02] <Luke771> what OS you run?
[6:02] <Derk> xp
[6:02] <Luke771> then that would be update.cmd
[6:02] <Derk> ok but what does that do
[6:02] <Derk> I totally removed freenode
[6:02] <Derk> and totally reinstalled it
[6:02] <Luke771> besides, you should let freenet update versions
[6:02] <Derk> I tried
[6:03] <Derk> it kept downloading, failing to install, restarting, downloading again, etc.
[6:03] <Luke771> oh, you totally remnoved? are you sure? did you run the uninstaller from the uninstaller folder inside the freenet folder?
[6:03] <Derk> yes
[6:03] <Derk> I ran the uninstaller
[6:03] <Luke771> ok
[6:04] <Luke771> lemme try to figure this out, one min...
[6:04] <Derk> for what it's worth, I did try reinstalling without uninstalling, but it was giving me logon errors so that's when I totally removed it
[6:04] <Luke771> you did right
[6:05] <Luke771> do you see the fproxy web interface I guess?
[6:05] <Luke771> at localhost:8888
[6:05] <Derk> yeah
[6:05] <Luke771> ok
[6:05] <Luke771> set your configuration to advanced
[6:05] <Derk> yeah
[6:05] <Luke771> then you should see howlines for setting store size and max mem usage
[6:06] <Luke771> now the version thing
[6:06] <Luke771> what version are you running?
[6:06] <Derk> ok well I don't see the store anywhere
[6:06] <Luke771> freenet #116...?
[6:06] <Derk> Freenet 0.7 Build #1165 r22843
[6:06] <Derk> Freenet-ext Build #22 r22506
[6:06] <Luke771> we'll take that later, let's try to get it connected first
[6:06] <Derk> downloaded and installed yesterday
[6:06] <Luke771> that should be OK
[6:06] <Derk> well I may have fixed that
[6:06] <Derk> I had erroneously set my download bandwidth to low
[6:06] <Luke771> possibly
[6:07] <Derk> too low
[6:07] <Derk> I had it set at 200 bytes instead of 200kb
[6:07] <Luke771> you see a 'connections to strangers' link in the links box aty top-left?
[6:07] <Derk> while my upload was at like 40kb, so that was already fine
[6:07] <Derk> yeah
[6:07] <Derk> since I made the change from 200 to 200kb it's connected 2 people
[6:07] <Luke771> ok click it and see whether you have connections
[6:07] <Derk> whereas before it was just 6 not connected
[6:08] <Luke771> yeah but do you have any connected or busy/backed off
[6:08] <Luke771> ?
[6:08] <Derk> yes 2 connected
[6:08] <Luke771> than you're fine
[6:08] <Derk> anyway like I said I may have fixed that
[6:08] <Derk> about the store though
[6:08] <Luke771> you have
[6:08] <Derk> I seriously don't see where that is
[6:08] <Luke771> now the store
[6:08] <Derk> give me a string to search for or something
[6:09] <Luke771> search for 'Store size in bytes'
[6:09] <Derk> ah, ok
[6:09] <Luke771> now
[6:09] <Derk> I was looking for hard drive, hdd, gb, etc.
[6:10] <Luke771> you don't have to calculate the size in bytes, set it in GiB
[6:10] <Derk> yeah
[6:10] <Luke771> use GiB not GB, the node understands that
[6:10] <Derk> right
[6:10] <Derk> what's generally accepted as a good number now
[6:10] <Derk> I used to have it set at 10 and it would just totally kill my machine when it restarted or whatever
[6:11] <Luke771> anfd bear in mind that you need a lower value than it would be in GB, as GB = x1000 and GiB = powers of 2 (or at least that's the way it's done here)
[6:11] <Luke771> I have it set to 410GiB for a dedicated 500G freenet disk
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[6:11] <Derk> lol ok not that much for me :)
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[6:12] <Luke771> before I got a dedicated freenet disk, I have freenet 100GiB, and before that, on a box where I only had 40+80GB I gave it 25GiB
[6:12] <Luke771> but 10GiB is good anyway
[6:13] <Luke771> the point is, make it as big as you can afford, that will come back to you in node performance
[6:13] <Derk> yeah
[6:13] <Derk> k, thanks for the help
[6:13] <Luke771> the bigger the datastore, & the more mem you can allow freenet to use, the better the node will perform
[6:14] <Luke771> letting it run is important too, let it run as much as you can, possibly 24/7
[6:14] <Luke771> the update thing: check that you have both fetch and install updates set to true
[6:14] <Luke771> it's towards the bottom of the config page
[6:14] <Derk> right, it us
[6:14] <Derk> is
[6:15] <Luke771> nice
[6:15] <Luke771> test if the update script work?
[6:15] <Derk> not yet, I will
[6:15] <Luke771> k
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[6:38] <pernils> hi
[6:39] <pernils> Is anyone here ??
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[9:16] <FreenetLogBot> r22925 (WoT) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[16:49] <toad_> hi
[16:49] <Artefact2> hi
[16:50] <Ratchet> hi toad_
[16:50] <toad_> what's up?
[16:50] <Ratchet> toad_: I have "Limit to one connection per address?" in node.opennet config set, but still two of my darknet peers have connections as opennet nodes
[16:51] <Ratchet> "Also prevents having the same node connected on darknet and opennet simultaneously."
[16:51] <toad_> :|
[16:51] <Ratchet> is this info outdated?
[16:51] <toad_> did the opennet connection come online first?
[16:52] <Ratchet> no. I even deactivated opennet, restarted and activated it after some time.
[16:52] <toad_> ok so it connected the darknet nodes, then you enabled opennet, and the opennet nodes connected as well?
[16:52] <Ratchet> yes
[16:52] <toad_> curious
[16:52] <toad_> imho not urgent - file a bug
[16:52] <Ratchet> ok
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[17:07] <toad_> re
[17:07] <toad_> hmmm, next steps...
[17:07] <toad_> i suppose debug freesite inserts on db4o...
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[17:21] <Zero3> I'm wondering.. Why is it that linux installs are not handled via packages?
[17:21] <Ratchet> to frequent updates?
[17:21] <toad_> official packages are out of the question due to very frequent incompatible updates
[17:22] <toad_> unofficial packages are a good idea but nobody has got around to it
[17:22] <Ratchet> there's some gentoo ebuild around
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[17:22] <toad_> also our current system has the advantage that if auto-update works on linux it probably also works on windows
[17:23] <Zero3> I was mostly thinking about the actual installation process. Linux users must
[17:23] <Zero3> ... *hate* having to install Freenet manually
[17:23] <Zero3> When everything else comes in packages...
[17:24] <Artefact2> Zero3: you only have to launch the webinstall jar once, I don't see where it's complicated
[17:25] <Artefact2> the whole process could be written in a makefile, that could make the whole process more console friendly
[17:25] <Zero3> Artefact2: Because of all the stuff you have to choose in the installer.. Where to install, what to install, manual download procedures, ...
[17:25] <Zero3> Linux has a *great* advantage with its packaging systems.. True one-click installs
[17:26] <Zero3> sudo apt-get install freenet -> Done
[17:26] <Zero3> (if it was an official package of course)
[17:26] <greycat> I remember when there were Debian freenet packages. *shudder*
[17:26] <greycat> They were always 2 years out of date or some such.
[17:26] <Artefact2> Zero3: just do a script that does it, it's pretty easy (using wget and crontab)
[17:27] <Ratchet> I was always happy with the headless install :-)
[17:27] <Zero3> Script doing what? Downloading the installer and clicking through it?
[17:27] <Zero3> :)
[17:27] <Artefact2> Zero3: no. downloading the latest jar and zip, extracting it, installing the daemon, checking for JVM, ...
[17:28] <Ratchet> there should be a console wizard for headless installs. that would make packaged installes easier
[17:28] <toad_> why?
[17:28] <Ratchet> download, install, call udpate.sh, run some console wizard
[17:28] <Zero3> Well - that is the point, kind of. "Why isn't Freenet installed on Linux via packages?". Its not me that need it - I'm thinking in terms of general improovement of the installation procedure of Freenet
[17:29] <Artefact2> that won't be useful (because you only install freenet once at all)
[17:29] <Artefact2> fred self-updates
[17:29] <Zero3> Headless installs would be fixed with packages too.. You would just ssh (or whatever) the package install command?
[17:29] <Zero3> Artefact2: I'm not talking updates here.. I'm talking initial installation
[17:30] <Zero3> Artefact2: It would seem ideal to actually use the advantages Linux have... And package systems seems like a big one to me
[17:31] <Ratchet> yeah, btu what do you do if the distribution package updates?
[17:31] <Ratchet> overwrite the auto-updates of the node?
[17:32] <Zero3> Obviously you would need to design the package and update-over-freenet process according to each other
[17:32] <Artefact2> you mean override ?
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[17:33] <Zero3> Random solution: Have the packaged files be a "baseline" and let updates-over-freenet be saved under another name. The wrapper would then check which one is the newest, and launch that one.
[17:34] <Zero3> or latest* - or whatever proper English grammar is :P
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[17:35] <Zero3> Perhaps the package systems even allow checking of file versions and has the ability to only override older files. No idea.
[17:37] <Luke771> make a deb package out of the headless installer and let an install script fire up update.sh (I still think it's pointless)
[17:38] <toad_> it would be possible to package it properly
[17:38] <Zero3> Luke771: Why?
[17:38] <toad_> however 80% of our hits come from windows users
[17:38] <Zero3> Really?
[17:38] <Ratchet> well, 80% of pc users _are_ windows users :-)
[17:38] <toad_> sadly so :|
[17:38] <toad_> no, 95% of PC users are windows users
[17:38] <toad_> but only 80% of freenetproject.org hits
[17:39] <Ratchet> oh
[17:40] <Zero3> Well... I suggest that if we want more Linux users, we might as well adapt to their platform... Personally, I'm get annoyed when Linux apps don't offer package installs. The idea is just so great that people should be punished for not using it.
[17:41] <Zero3> I*
[17:41] <toad_> we'd need a lot of different package types
[17:41] <toad_> but sure it's a good idea
[17:41] <toad_> but so are n zillion other things, so unless you're gonna do it ...
[17:41] <toad_> you would have to sanitise the build scripts first
[17:41] <Zero3> .deb and .rpm should cover quite a lot of ground, right?
[17:41] <toad_> split off stuff that needs to be split off
[17:41] <Zero3> mm
[17:42] <toad_> make it all build out of the box, including C binaries
[17:43] <Zero3> We have c bins?
[17:43] <Ratchet> I still wasn't able to build the new 3.3.1 release of wrapper under freebsd. it fails with some errors in struct_time :-/
[17:43] <toad_> yeah for FEC etc
[17:43] <Zero3> FEC?
[17:44] <toad_> splitfile redundancy. Vandermonde codes. Onion FEC codecs.
[17:44] <Zero3> o_O
[17:44] <Ratchet> and libjbigint
[17:44] <toad_> also native thread priorities, and some other stuff iirc
[17:44] <toad_> and the wrapper
[17:45] <toad_> yeah, faster modPow
[17:46] <Zero3> I'll never get time to learn all that before military service o_O. Should i fill a bug, in case someone wants to do it sometime?
[17:46] <Ratchet> you should fill a mug before going to military service ;-)
[17:47] <Zero3> I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to get through it.. :o
[17:47] <toad_> grrr heisenbug...
[17:48] <toad_> it goes away when you try to debug it
[17:49] <Ratchet> those are the meanest
[17:53] <Luke771> well, with a package and system-wide install as root, one could create the freenet user on linux too...
[17:54] <Luke771> i mean automatically on install, as on windows
[17:54] <toad_> indeed
[17:54] <toad_> well we could almost do that now with LSB
[17:54] <toad_> but there are some problems
[17:55] <toad_> last time i checked
[17:56] <toad_> e.g. LSB isn't installed by default on debian
[17:57] <toad_> hmmm
[17:58] <toad_> if there's a debugger attached, and i try to trace it on SBI calling onSuccess, then the insert always succeeds
[17:58] <toad_> if i don't attach a debugger, it always reaches fetchable and stalls forever
[17:59] <toad_> has to be some sort of timing bug ... but they ought not to happen here ...
[18:13] <Zero3> Is the fproxy HTML generated from the code itself? I can only find the PNGs and CSS in SVN?
[18:14] <toad_> the pngs and css are in SVN but are fixed
[18:14] <toad_> the html is generated
[18:14] <p0s> debian 5.0 will be out soon
[18:14] <toad_> we have 4 themes, we welcome more
[18:14] <toad_> p0s: soon as in next year, next 3 years? :)
[18:14] <p0s> toad_: "september this year"
[18:14] <toad_> you mean september 2009?
[18:14] <p0s> no 2008
[18:15] <Ratchet> hehe
[18:15] <p0s> ;)
[18:15] <toad_> then it's overdue
[18:15] <Ratchet> as always
[18:15] <toad_> is there a release candidate yet?
[18:15] <p0s> yea. but feature freezed.
[18:15] <Ratchet> there times when debian was feature freezed for months :-)
[18:15] <Ratchet> *there were
[18:16] <toad_> will it include LSB in the default install?
[18:17] <Zero3> toad_: I wanted to play around with it a bit, but it doesn't make much sense if all I can mess with is the CSS
[18:17] <p0s> toad_: i dont know. you could download debian-testing and see.
[18:17] <toad_> Zero3: i don't follow. you can mess with the css and with the pngs. that's a great deal of flexibility.
[18:18] * Luke771 (n=luke@) Quit ("[add smart/funny quote here]")
[18:18] <toad_> and yes we will consider HTML changes - dieppe was working on some mockups
[18:19] <Zero3> Yea, I looked a bit at the mockups you linked to on the dev list.. But how is that going to happen if the HTML is generated from 127 places in the code?
[18:19] <Zero3> Or is it packed together somewhere?
[18:19] <toad_> I still don't get it
[18:19] <toad_> go read a book about CSS :)
[18:19] <Zero3> I'm looking for a template
[18:19] <Zero3> :P
[18:20] <toad_> CSS *IS* the template
[18:20] <toad_> that is, the overall style is defined by and modifiable through CSS
[18:20] <Zero3> Yea, but I wanted to be able to move things around as well :(
[18:20] <Artefact2> toad_: it's not very clean to alter inner HTML with "content:" CSS
[18:20] <toad_> huh?
[18:21] <toad_> Zero3: CSS can move things around, CSS can do almost anything
[18:21] <toad_> you don't need tables to move stuff around
[18:21] <Artefact2> toad_: sometimes, you need to change the structure itself
[18:21] <toad_> right, well if the *CONTENT* is wrong, you talk to me
[18:22] <Artefact2> and some tricky CSS properties that can avoid change xHTML aren't sometimes supported by every browser
[18:22] <Zero3> Well, for a mockup realization, it would be nice to be able to move *everything* around. Make the menu horizontal, exclude menus, add submenus, etc.
[18:23] <Zero3> Change text headers and so on
[18:23] <toad_> there are themes that make the menu horizontal
[18:23] <toad_> and themes that make it vertical
[18:23] <toad_> submenus are going to be implemented when we get around to it
[18:23] <toad_> unfortunately Dieppe seems to have disappeared :|
[18:23] <Artefact2> toad_: i mean that an editable template is *always* better than tricky CSS properties
[18:24] <toad_> any template that we actually use is going to be inflexible and require code changes for any MAJOR modifications
[18:24] <Zero3> Yea, that was kind of what I was looking for.. A modifyable template
[18:24] <toad_> if you need code changes then ASK FOR THEM
[18:24] <toad_> otherwise, mockups are fine, post them on the list
[18:24] <Artefact2> z.B., you can't set a floating image at a higher position than it is, unless you edit relative position, which is very complex
[18:24] <toad_> the core code doesn't use images
[18:25] <toad_> the places where images are used are defined by CSS
[18:25] <Artefact2> yes, it was an example
[18:25] <toad_> because they're just style, they're irrelevant to content
[18:25] <Zero3> What if I wanted to insert an image at a given apge? Surely the only reasonable way to do that would be to add it to the HTML?
[18:25] <Zero3> page*
[18:25] <toad_> no, CSS supports images
[18:26] <toad_> CSS has always supported images
[18:26] <toad_> as far as i know
[18:26] <Artefact2> use "p.someclass:before { content: url(image.jpg); }
[18:26] <Zero3> Yea, but that would be a mess.. To use CSS to add a simple image to a page
[18:26] <toad_> e.g. for backgrounds, cell contents, forms ...
[18:26] <toad_> no, it's the right and only way to do it
[18:26] <Zero3> o_O
[18:26] <toad_> unless the image is generated by the node
[18:26] <toad_> e.g. for the stats page
[18:26] * Ratchet agrees
[18:27] <Zero3> So you wouldn't ever use the <img> tag?
[18:27] <Artefact2> no.
[18:27] <toad_> unless that image is part of content
[18:27] <Artefact2> css != xHTML
[18:27] <toad_> e.g. a generated graph on the stats page
[18:28] <toad_> separation of style from content is enormously powerful, we should exploit it properly
[18:28] <Zero3> Hmm
[18:29] <toad_> and yes, in some places we just build a table or do <b> or whatever, but only because i don't know CSS and i expect others to tidy it up and prettify it once i get the basics working :)
[18:29] <Artefact2> <b> is outdated, use <strong> instead.
[18:29] <toad_> <b> is deprecated in xhtml 2.0?
[18:30] <Smar> weren’t it even in 1.0...?
[18:30] <Smar> <strong> is what you should to use
[18:30] <Zero3> lol
[18:30] <Artefact2> toad_: indeed, it is.
[18:30] <Smar> I don’t know if _that_ is deprecated in 2.0... :)
[18:30] * toad_ can remember this debate going back to the days of html 3 :)
[18:31] <Zero3> Is fproxy xhtml?!?
[18:31] <toad_> but it's official as of XHTML, good
[18:31] <Smar> :>
[18:31] <Artefact2> <b> is replaced by <strong>, <i> by <em> and others like <u> are simply gone
[18:32] <Zero3> Most web browsers have mature support[7] for all of the possible XHTML media types.[8] The notable exception is Internet Explorer by Microsoft; rather than rendering application/xhtml+xml content, a dialog box invites the user to save the content to disk instead.
[18:32] <toad_> heh
[18:32] <toad_> that will be fixed now i'm sure
[18:33] <Zero3> Hopefully fproxy isn't xhtml.. Eh?
[18:33] <toad_> :)
[18:33] <toad_> of course fproxy is xhtml
[18:33] <toad_> at least it declares itself as suh
[18:33] <toad_> such
[18:33] <toad_> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN">
[18:33] <Zero3> Except MIME type then?
[18:33] <Zero3> Yet IE renders it fine?
[18:33] * fetter_oml (n=florian@) has joined #freenet
[18:33] <toad_> who cares? :)
[18:34] <toad_> freenet isn't safe with IE
[18:34] <Smar> Result:4 Errors, 1 warning(s)
[18:34] <toad_> but iirc we serve it as text/html
[18:34] <Smar> maybe you should change it... ;)
[18:34] <Zero3> Hmm
[18:35] <toad_> if it ain't broke...
[18:35] <Zero3> I'd say you are brave if you dare excluding all IE users from Freenet
[18:35] <Smar> toad_: those errors are quite easy to fix, if you want it to be validated
[18:35] <toad_> Zero3: we don't exclude them, but we do warn them
[18:35] <toad_> we used to use very explicit language but lots of people got mad about that
[18:35] <Smar> Zero3: I’d do it :)
[18:35] <toad_> so we're more precise and less inflammatory nowadays
[18:36] <Smar> my own site doesn’t work with ie and I’m happy with it. :)
[18:36] <toad_> :)
[18:36] <Smar> (ok, now it doesn’t with anything since it is broken, but anyway)
[18:37] <Zero3> Smar: Haha :P. Well, it is just that in this phase, it would seem like quite a setback to exclude IE users
[18:38] <Smar> (not for me, only user of my site is me, or maybe random people who has heard of my image collection, which should work even with ie(maybe))
[18:39] <toad_> Smar: send a patch :)
[18:39] <toad_> Smar: i mean for the errors
[18:39] <Zero3> Freenet needs users (according to... everyone?)... Yet IE has a market share of 72%... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers)
[18:39] <Smar> toad_: hmm... how I should make it?
[18:40] <toad_> Zero3: there are ways to make it safe in IE but they're rather going out of our way; the consensus has always been to tell the user and move on to more important things
[18:40] <toad_> we'd have to encode text/plain into text/html when we serve it for example
[18:41] <Artefact2> talinkg about browsers : that would be VERY nice to upgrade the "please don't close me", the browse.cmd (broken), the firefox profile & theme for 3.0....
[18:41] <Zero3> toad_: I agree, hence I'd say *dont* change the MIME type
[18:41] <toad_> the browse.cmd was fixed weeks ago
[18:41] <toad_> get the updated version and move on
[18:42] <Artefact2> in my opinion, a simple link "firefox.exe -p freenet" would be easier (with the rabbit icon)
[18:43] <toad_> every so often that will choose to reset the profile
[18:43] <toad_> and then users will uninstall freenet, uninstall firefox, scream, and kill uis
[18:43] <toad_> us
[18:43] <toad_> in more or less that order
[18:43] <toad_> and then go back to IE
[18:43] <toad_> because their firefox is fscked
[18:43] <toad_> and they have no idea that the correct fix is firefox -ProfileManage
[18:43] <toad_> r
[18:43] <toad_> and yes, we do still get these reports, on the uninstall survey
[18:43] <Artefact2> simply explain how it works and why it's important in the welcome page
[18:44] <toad_> we do
[18:44] <toad_> don't we?
[18:44] <toad_> that's what the don't close me is about
[18:44] <toad_> people don't read it
[18:44] <Artefact2> it doesn't talk about the -profileManager
[18:45] <Artefact2> anyway, I use firefox only for freenet, and Chromium for censored web. That's more practical like this :)
[18:46] <Zero3> The reason we have a custom FF profile.. Is because of the connection limits in the default install.. Right? Do we have other important reasons?
[18:46] <toad_> <p>If Firefox always opens the freenet profile, you can rectify this by finding firefox.exe and running it with the -ProfileManager option.</p>
[18:46] <Zero3> Seperate history/bookmarks?
[18:47] <toad_> most users won't know what that means :(
[18:47] <toad_> hopefully our users are slightly more savvy than the average, but still...
[18:47] <Artefact2> Zero3: no JS, no plugins, no cache, etc. good options for anonymity
[18:47] <toad_> no history
[18:47] <toad_> that's pretty important
[18:47] <Zero3> Hmm
[18:47] <toad_> finding freesites on a user's browser history is *bad*
[18:47] <Smar> toad_: command line options are pain in windows
[18:47] <Artefact2> no, they aren't.
[18:47] <toad_> Smar: agreed
[18:47] <toad_> Smar: so?
[18:48] <toad_> I propose to add that line to the don't close me page, any objections?
[18:48] <Zero3> I propose to kill that page once and for all...
[18:48] <Smar> toad_: mm?
[18:48] <toad_> Zero3: unacceptable
[18:48] <toad_> Zero3: IT STILL HAPPENS!
[18:48] <Zero3> Who can reproduce it?
[18:48] <toad_> Zero3: therefore we cannot get rid of the page
[18:49] <toad_> nobody, that's half the problem - but we still get reports of it from users doing the uninstall survey
[18:49] <Zero3> and/or had the problem?
[18:49] <Artefact2> or maybe create two shortcuts : one "-p freenet" and other "-p default" so newbies won't be puzzled
[18:49] <Zero3> Add a shotcut saying "Fix FireFox lockout" instead. And/or trigger it on uninstall?
[18:49] <toad_> Artefact2: so you want us to hack the firefox icon on the toolbar, and the two on the start menu? that'll go down really well...
[18:49] <Smar> hmm... I wonder if opera actually caches localhost *goes to change some settings*
[18:49] <Artefact2> or add a shortcut to the profile manager on the desktop
[18:49] <toad_> what we could do is reconfigure firefox to always ask the user which profile they want
[18:50] <toad_> but that's horrible
[18:50] <Zero3> Wont do either
[18:50] <toad_> another option is to have our script edit profiles.ini directly, and reset it if it's changed to freenet as default
[18:50] <Zero3> We can automate the "fix", right? So can't we just add a shortcut to the fix?
[18:50] <Artefact2> or simply make a little browser in java which comes bundeled in fred ;)
[18:50] <toad_> that's the real option imho - but we need to be able to reproduce it in order to test it
[18:51] <toad_> Artefact2: XULRunner might be an option, but the basic XULRunner browser is far too spartan, we need something half way from it to firefox
[18:51] <toad_> => lots of work
[18:51] <Artefact2> i think it's the best way to do : we would be sure "risky settings" won't be on, and extra tricky conf (like connections.max-per-server) would be ok
[18:51] <Zero3> Doing our own browser seems insane
[18:51] <Artefact2> isn't any bundled browser bundled in the java framework ?
[18:51] <toad_> it is insane
[18:51] <Artefact2> that should do the trick - freesites are simply basic xHTML
[18:51] <toad_> plus CSS
[18:52] <Artefact2> you don't need JS support
[18:52] <toad_> we do not want to have to maintain our own browser!
[18:52] <Artefact2> just use an existing one ! :)
[18:52] <toad_> or even somebody else's with auto update over freenet
[18:52] <toad_> LIKE WHAT?
[18:52] <toad_> go find me a modern browser written in java
[18:52] <Artefact2> isn't there any webbrowser widget into the java framework ?
[18:52] <toad_> there isn't one as far as i know
[18:52] <Artefact2> there is a such class in C#, i thought there were one in java either
[18:53] <p0s> Artefact2: i bet its a wrapper for IE =)
[18:53] <toad_> "embed IE"
[18:53] <toad_> C# by definition isn't cross platform
[18:53] <Artefact2> yes, but it's easy to implement and easy to do ourself the tricky configuration
[18:53] <toad_> is it? making IE safe involves registry hacks ...
[18:54] <Artefact2> C# by definition IS cross-platform. some parts of the .NET framework aren't cross-platform.
[18:54] <Zero3> toad_: Do you have a list of the uninstall surveys about FF lockouts?
[18:54] <toad_> Artefact2: yeah it's portable from windows to windows. and yes i know about mono, MS can hardly take credit for that though
[18:54] <Ratchet> there's a SWT browser widget... but I don't know if that would suffice
[18:54] <toad_> SWT?
[18:54] * gasi (n=gasi@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:54] <Artefact2> toad_: C# and .net framework are two completely separate things
[18:54] <toad_> Zero3: it's not common
[18:55] <Ratchet> that swing gui stuff
[18:55] <toad_> Artefact2: okay, well, the embed-an-Internet-Explorer thing is ".net framework", not "C#"
[18:55] <toad_> Artefact2: and therefore only portable due to Mono
[18:55] <Artefact2> toad_: yes it is, unfortunately
[18:55] <Artefact2> but if the 1.7 JVM is GNU, MS will probably do something to counter
[18:56] <toad_> hah
[18:56] <toad_> MS GPL's .net!!!!111!!1!1!!!ZZZ!!"!
[18:56] <Smar> don’t even dream :D
[18:56] <Artefact2> i didn't say that
[18:56] <toad_> I don't dream
[18:56] <Zero3> My personal opinion on this: We have a *few* people with these odd lockouts nobody here can reproduce. The cost: We popup the "don't close me" page for every single session for every single user. I'd say add a note to the installer saying "IF YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF FIREFOX PROBLEMS AFTER INSTALLING FREENET PLEASE CONTACT US IMMEDIATELY" etc. and wipe the "don't close me"
[18:56] <toad_> not about MS doing the right thing... my objective is for them to crash and burn :)
[18:57] <toad_> Zero3: they won't read it even if it's in the installer
[18:57] <toad_> they don't read
[18:57] <Zero3> Then screw em :P
[18:57] <toad_> they click Next and click Next and click Next and expect instant pornography
[18:57] <Zero3> The uninstaller then
[18:57] <Artefact2> i'm not dreaming. i just like C# ease-to-use, syntax. I would like to learn java (which is very closer to C# syntax) but I don't know where to start :(
[18:57] <toad_> Artefact2: Java is easy
[18:57] <Zero3> "IF YOU UNINSTALLED FREENET BECAUSE OF FF blah blah"
[18:57] <toad_> Artefact2: just do it
[18:57] <Artefact2> toad_: with what ?
[18:58] <toad_> nah, the solution is the profiles.ini hack script, the problem is we need to reproduce the bug so we can test the script
[18:58] <toad_> Artefact2: "just do it" refers to learning java
[18:59] <toad_> hhmmm
[18:59] <Artefact2> i don't understand all the java jargon : packages, jar, ...
[18:59] <toad_> db4o does evil things with arrays, i think this is why MultiPutCompletionCallback is broken...
[18:59] <toad_> Artefact2: that's all easy, and in any case it's secondary
[18:59] <Artefact2> but I know POO already, so I just have to learn the basics
[19:00] <toad_> jar is just a binary file, half-compiled, like p-code
[19:00] <toad_> packages are basically namespaces in directories
[19:00] <Zero3> .jar is just an archive, no?
[19:00] <toad_> a directory in the source tree ~= a package
[19:00] <Artefact2> toad_: hmmm, fine. and what IDE should I use (which has something like intellisense, and a good doc if possible :))
[19:01] <toad_> i use eclipse
[19:01] <toad_> eclipse is good
[19:01] <toad_> some people use netbeans
[19:01] <p0s> netbeans is nice for GUIs.
[19:01] <p0s> for freenet i would also use eclipse.
[19:03] <toad_> hmmm
[19:03] <toad_> now i remember ... arrays AND THEIR CONTENTS are stored with the object ... hmmm
[19:04] <toad_> so you can't store an array of pointers to other things and expect them to be updated when you update them ...
[19:04] <toad_> this is a major semantic violation, i have no idea why db4o does it this way...
[19:05] <toad_> oh i remember
[19:05] <toad_> hmmm
[19:06] <toad_> is it just the array or is it the array and its contents
[19:06] <toad_> i've run into it with the array in the past ... object A keeps makes an array and keeps a reference to it, then passes it to object B, which keeps it itself; object B changes the array, and object A can't see object B's changes
[19:07] <p0s> toad you told me about cascading...
[19:07] <toad_> but this doesn't explain the current behaviour...
[19:07] <p0s> hmm what about the other features...
[19:07] <p0s> http://developer.db4o.com/resources/api/db4o-java/com/db4o/config/ObjectClass.html
[19:09] <toad_> there are two objects created:
[19:09] <toad_> freenet.client.async.SingleBlockInserter@2d9b8afa
[19:09] <toad_> freenet.client.async.SingleBlockInserter@4cd4eaac
[19:10] <toad_> both are added to waitFor on the MultiPutCompletionCallback
[19:10] <toad_> one of them completes, calls in to it, and is removed
[19:10] <toad_> the other completes, but isn't removed
[19:11] <toad_> the MPCC's waitFor array has in both cases one deactivated item: freenet.client.async.SingleBlockInserter@0
[19:11] <Zero3> toad_: About the theming issue: So that means I won't be able to create a completely different theme and remove/add things, rename things, merge/split pages, etc...? You would have to stick with the way the content is arranged atm..?
[19:12] <toad_> Zero3: you can't rename pages for the simple reason that page names have to be localised
[19:13] <toad_> you can't split up pages because that would require HTML changes in any theming scheme except for the most advanced and expensive ones (equivalent to rewriting the web UI in php)
[19:13] <toad_> however, you can make a mockup with structural changes and we'll consider them
[19:16] <toad_> most of the changes in dieppe's mockups will definitely happen sooner or later
[19:16] <toad_> structural changes i mean
[19:18] <nextgens> toad_> Ratchet> there is already a ticket for it
[19:18] <toad_> for what?
[19:19] <Ratchet> oh, sorry. should have checked in advance
[19:20] <Ratchet> toad_: the opennet7darknet connections
[19:20] <Zero3> toad_: Hmm. Yea, okay. I'll stick around and see what happens then.
[19:21] <toad_> aaargh
[19:21] <toad_> doh
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[21:48] <toad_> rehi
[21:48] <Smar> hire
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[21:55] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[21:55] * amphibian is now known as toad_
[21:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
[21:57] <toad_> re-rehi
[21:57] <toad_> lost connection completely for a moment there ... seems to work now though, for "work" meaning no HTTP and no UDP
[21:58] <Smar> :S
[21:58] <toad_> i had hoped that reconnecting would help, it didn't, caused it to go down completely, but back up now
[21:58] * toad_ will set up a VPN if it goes on long enough to get really annoying
[21:59] <toad_> i've done that before - on the same ISP too
[21:59] * toad_ is glad he didn't get rid of his vserver...
[22:08] * fetter_oml (n=florian@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[22:16] * mikedep333 (n=mike@) has joined #freenet
[22:36] * Zarggg (n=zarggg@) has joined #freenet
[22:38] <toad_> what uses maxRetries=10 ?
[22:41] <Smar> :)
[22:41] <Smar> mm?
[22:58] <mikedep333> hey, I'm new to freenet and it seems like the newbies channel is no longer around
[22:59] <mikedep333> so the indexes show you the entire opennet, right?
[22:59] * infinity0 (n=infinity@) Quit ("Leaving.")
[22:59] <mikedep333> and they include download links to files across the entire data store opennet
[22:59] <mikedep333> but FreeMulET only can browse friends and untrusted peers
[23:03] <Tommy[D]> there is no "opennet"
[23:03] <Tommy[D]> and the indexes are only some links their maintainer collected, they are surely not complete
[23:04] <Tommy[D]> and FreeMUlET is probably unusable, afaik
[23:04] <mikedep333> if there is no opennet
[23:05] <mikedep333> then how do I connect to people that aren't untrusted peers or friends?
[23:06] <Tommy[D]> "opennet" and "darknet" are only different ways to connect, the network is the same for all
[23:06] <mikedep333> how do I access their data store files rather
[23:07] <Tommy[D]> you dont access someones data store or file, you only request specific data or files and freenet collects it from whereever it actually is, if it is in freenet
[23:07] <mikedep333> oh, right
[23:08] <mikedep333> I gotta go, bbl
[23:12] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected a network glitch on http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ : it has been disabled
[23:27] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
[23:42] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected a network glitch on http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ : it has been disabled
[23:51] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[23:51] * ordex (n=linuxaro@) Quit ("leaving")
[23:55] <mikedep333> Tommy[D], so when I access a URL like:
[23:55] <mikedep333> http://127.0.0.1:8888/freenet:USK@ugb~uuscsidMI-Ze8laZe~o3BUIb3S50i25RIwDH99M,9T20t3xoG-dQfMO94LGOl9AxRTkaz~TykFY-voqaTQI,AQACAAE/FAFS/34/
[23:55] <mikedep333> the portion after the @ sign is only a publisher's signature
[23:57] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
These logs were automatically created by FreenetLogBot on chat.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.