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[12:56] <FreenetLogBot> Website is up to date with r22698
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[13:32] <FreenetLogBot> r22699 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[14:33] <FreenetLogBot> r22701 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[14:39] <FreenetLogBot> r22702 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[14:45] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected a network glitch on http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ : it has been disabled
[14:51] <FreenetLogBot> r22703 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[15:24] <FreenetLogBot> r22704 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[16:00] <FreenetLogBot> r22705 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[16:00] <FreenetLogBot> r22706 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[16:55] <FreenetLogBot> r22707 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:43] <FreenetLogBot> r22708 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:55] <FreenetLogBot> r22709 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:55] <FreenetLogBot> r22710 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[18:01] * FreenetLogBot (n=PircBot@) has joined #freenet
[18:01] * Topic is 'http://freenetproject.org/download.html (1164 mandatory soon), please read before asking for help here. #freenet-refs is no more, turn on insecure mode if you don't have any friends using Freenet | http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | logs: http://emu.freenetproject.org/irc/ | Tor blocked due to spam (get an op to voice you) | #freenet-fr #freenet-se #freenet-es #freenet-it #freenet-de | paste at http://code.bulix.org".'
[18:01] * Set by toad_ on Thu Sep 18 12:12:26 UTC 2008
[18:01] -ChanServ- [#freenet] Welcome to the official Freenet support channel! Read the channel topic for more information!
[18:02] <b0mber> ahhh, there it is, thanks !!
[18:03] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: what db are you using?
[18:03] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: Original DB
[18:04] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: How much free space on that device?
[18:04] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: 140GB
[18:05] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: trunk or stable version and which version of -ext?
[18:05] * b0mber (n=none@) has left #freenet
[18:06] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: Right now I am using Trunk. #1164 r22697 and freenet-ext Build #22 r22506
[18:09] <Tommy[D]> hm
[18:09] * infinity0 (n=infinity@) Quit ("Leaving.")
[18:10] <Tommy[D]> strange, does not happen for me (also my setup is a little bit special - ebuilds with splitted -ext)
[18:12] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: It has been happening for a while now. 2 weeks or mabye more, Never had a corrupted DB before (Several years of usage).
[18:13] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: Perhaps related to your hardware?
[18:18] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: I do not think so. I guess it's because the (too many files open) I am getting
[18:18] <Anarhist> ok, i've been trying to get wireshark to run (gui of tshark) and it is just sitting there doing nothing eating up a lot of resources
[18:19] * Zarggg (n=z@) has joined #freenet
[18:20] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: Running Wot plugin?
[18:20] <Cooo> nope
[18:21] <Tommy[D]> Cooo: i also had once db problems, in the end it was the memory that was defect, new memory => problem solved
[18:23] * kers (n=kersfree@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[18:24] <Cooo> Tommy[D]: Hrmmm. Don't think it's a memory problem but I guess I should run an memtest on next reeebot..
[18:27] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected a network glitch on http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ : it has been disabled
[18:52] <toad_> rehi
[18:52] <toad_> Anarhist: you need to find out whether there are packets being exchanged with the two nodes
[18:52] <Zero3> bbl
[18:52] * Zero3 (i=5550d67b@) Quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
[18:52] <toad_> Anarhist: maybe they're only going out, or only coming in, or neither
[18:53] <toad_> Anarhist: when it's showing up as disconnected
[18:53] <Anarhist> ok, i'll do it a bit later now
[18:54] * toad_ gonna test his bandwidth limiting and packet ordering changes
[19:00] <FreenetLogBot> r22711 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[19:02] <toad_> how big a spike in output bandwidth usage is acceptable?
[19:03] <toad_> currently the token filter has a half second capacity
[19:03] <toad_> that is, if your bandwidth limit is 40K/sec, and you don't send any packets for 500ms, then the node can send 20K at once, empty the bucket, and then gradually use up what becomes available over the next second
[19:03] <pmpp> 1/20 second is udp synchro in fps online gaming
[19:04] <toad_> for a total of nearly 60K/sec
[19:04] <toad_> pmpp: not sure i understand
[19:04] <toad_> pmpp: that's the latency target? 50ms?
[19:04] <pmpp> under 100
[19:04] <toad_> but how does our usage influence that?
[19:05] <pmpp> it depend on how big is the spike
[19:05] <toad_> our average round trip time is never that low
[19:05] <toad_> granted there's up to 100ms on each end...
[19:05] <toad_> pmpp: right
[19:05] <toad_> pmpp: so how big can a spike be and not be a problem?
[19:05] <pmpp> if spike can't eat the whole upload then no problem
[19:06] <toad_> sure, but how sensitive is it?
[19:06] <toad_> I mean, if we have a capacity of 80K/sec, a limit of 40K/sec, and we do a 20K spike, is that a problem?
[19:06] <toad_> is that going to cause significant lag?
[19:07] <pmpp> yeah if it does durring 0.05 sec it can eat a frame in a game maybe
[19:07] <toad_> servers don't send frames
[19:07] <toad_> frames are client side
[19:07] <pmpp> they are both
[19:07] <toad_> hmmm?
[19:07] <pmpp> at least on all those q3 engines
[19:08] <toad_> that seems extraordinarily unlikely
[19:08] <toad_> the network simply isn't fast enough to deal with frames - in the usual sense of frames
[19:09] <toad_> so we're talking about a different kind of frame here
[19:09] <pmpp> yes
[19:09] <pmpp> frame packet for calcultating the next graphic frame
[19:10] <toad_> graphic frames can be much faster than frame packets
[19:10] * toad_ supposes the engine just interpolates
[19:10] <toad_> but the server sends the definitive state 20 times per second
[19:10] <pmpp> yes it interpolates on client side and try to sync each 1/20 second wtih server
[19:11] <toad_> you get lag when the upstream is clogged up so that your clicking fire doesn't get sent for a while ... or when the upstream is so saturated that the downstream is no longer usable
[19:11] <toad_> given the games are on UDP, the former is probably the bigger concern for games
[19:12] <pmpp> right
[19:12] <toad_> so... lets assume we use half of the physical output limit (this is the default in most cases). lets assume that up and down are completely independant at the physical layer (apart from TCP acks etc).
[19:12] <toad_> then if we have a half-second-quota-in-one-go spike, this will likely cause a delay of 250ms, right?
[19:13] <toad_> for other outgoing packets
[19:13] <toad_> well, up to 250ms
[19:13] <toad_> 125ms on average probably
[19:13] <pmpp> it will probably drop the packet on the client , player won't notice
[19:13] <pmpp> but other player will see the guy stuck in the game
[19:13] <toad_> well we're talking about outgoing packets here
[19:14] <toad_> your "fire" packet gets sent, its delayed by 250ms, you get killed instead of the target, right?
[19:14] <pmpp> yeap
[19:14] <toad_> of course your client will eventually resend it
[19:14] <toad_> but it qualifies as lag
[19:15] <toad_> 250ms is worst-case, we should probably aim based on the average ... so if we send a 1/5th-second-in-one-go spike, that's 1/10th of the upload, so 100ms worst case, 50ms average
[19:16] <toad_> which is acceptable, although gamers should probably either turn it off, cut the bandwidth limit, or set it to say 1/20th
[19:17] * toad_ wonders if we should ask the user explicitly in the post-install wizard?
[19:17] <toad_> i'm assuming the game doesn't use any significant fraction of the user's upload bandwidth, of course
[19:18] <pmpp> yes it's very small bandwith
[19:18] <toad_> even for FPSs?
[19:18] <toad_> i know some MMORPGs use miniscule amounts of bandwidth (e.g. eve)
[19:18] <Smar> I think hugest problem is that windows doesn’t seem to handle multiple connections that wisely linux handles
[19:18] <pmpp> well for mmofps it's more bw
[19:19] <Smar> I have no lag problems unless I use 90% of bandwidth :)
[19:19] <toad_> Smar: why is that a problem for us?
[19:19] <toad_> Smar: we use UDP, it's connectionless
[19:19] <toad_> Smar: I'm talking about spikes here, not normal usage
[19:19] <Smar> hmm. ’kee
[19:19] <toad_> if the link is idle for a while, then we can send a whole bunch of packets immediately
[19:20] <toad_> at the moment that's up to half a second's worth, so one quarter of a second on the underlying link
[19:20] <toad_> that could be significant lag-wise
[19:20] <toad_> VoIP might not like it either
[19:21] * toad_ wonders if there's another way of dealing with it...
[19:22] <toad_> like if we have had a period of low bandwidth usage, we could follow it by a period of high usage - but not a bundle of packets all sent at once
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[19:22] <DarkRat> hey there. Got a question: how can I use Frost with Fproxy?
[19:22] <nextgens> '
[19:22] <toad_> token buckets are pretty standard otoh...
[19:22] <toad_> DarkRat: you can't use frost, because frost is DoS'ed
[19:23] <DarkRat> ah, okay
[19:23] <nextgens> toad_> dealing with game's latency is hard
[19:23] <toad_> DarkRat: but if you're looking at nonstandard boards (e.g. non-english), which aren't spammed, it might work
[19:23] <nextgens> toad_> the problem is that we have much more data to send than them
[19:23] <nextgens> we will clober the bandwidth, whether we want it or not
[19:23] <toad_> nextgens: i don't see how that follows
[19:23] <toad_> we don't use ALL the bandwidth
[19:24] <toad_> if we did we'd be in trouble
[19:24] <nextgens> the most urgent thing is to limit the bulk-transfert related code
[19:24] <nextgens> because that can degradate a connection for way too long
[19:24] <toad_> well
[19:24] <nextgens> imho we shouldn't serve more than once at any time
[19:24] <toad_> that's more or less what i've fixed
[19:24] <nextgens> ok
[19:24] <nextgens> good
[19:24] <DarkRat> still the question remains: How to use Frost wth Fproxy? There is an otion to override the FCP at startup. Should I insert the IP of the proxy in therre?
[19:25] <toad_> we now 1) round-robin between peers, regardless of the size of the message queue, and 2) implement throttling at send time, not pre-queue
[19:25] <toad_> this should fix the bulk transfer DoS, and greatly mitigate the low-MTU DoS
[19:25] <toad_> DarkRat: you just install it, what's the problem?
[19:25] <toad_> DarkRat: what is it not doing?
[19:25] <DarkRat> its freezing at "Sending Ip to..."
[19:25] <toad_> DarkRat: you should use FMS, it's harder to set up, but it's not DoS'ed
[19:26] <toad_> DarkRat: is it on a different computer than the node?
[19:26] <DarkRat> yes
[19:26] <DarkRat> thats why I'm using fproxy
[19:26] <toad_> okay then you need to go to config, and tell the node which IPs to allow
[19:27] <toad_> under fcp
[19:27] <toad_> not under fproxy
[19:27] <DarkRat> ok
[19:27] <toad_> hmmm, it's on the advanced mode settings
[19:27] <toad_> IP address to bind to
[19:27] <toad_> Allowed hosts (read the warning!)
[19:27] <toad_> those two settings
[19:29] <DarkRat> I'm using the freenet.ini for such things, but thx
[19:29] <toad_> nextgens: afaics it's a solvable problem. if we know that the overall capacity of the link is 80K/sec, and we never send a spurt greater than 2K, we know that we will be causing a maximum of 2/80 = 50ms lag, and on average 25ms, *during the spurts*
[19:31] <DarkRat> ok, working now. thanks
[19:31] <nextgens> 50ms lag is still a lot for a gamer
[19:31] <DarkRat> lets hope the DoS wears off ;)
[19:31] <nextgens> my point is that you won't ever do enough to please them
[19:32] <Luke771> DarkRat: it wont
[19:33] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:33] <Luke771> DarkRat: but, most non-english boards are still usable
[19:33] <DarkRat> ok
[19:33] <Luke771> for Englsih we're currently using FMS, but that's not an 'official' freenet app yet
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[19:34] <toad_> argh, bagrat42 networking stopped again... no obvious messages, doesn't happen on 2.6.22, but i can't recompile 2.6.22 to use SMP...
[19:39] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[19:39] <FreenetLogBot> r22712 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[19:59] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
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[20:29] <FreenetLogBot> r22713 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[20:40] <matt__> where can one aquire jSite.jar?
[20:41] <Tommy[D]> tried http://downloads.freenetproject.org/alpha/jSite/ ?
[20:42] <matt__> why does it not come with the installer anymore?
[20:43] * TheSeeker (i=Fridlekh@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:44] * caytchen (n=caytchen@) Quit ("Verlassend")
[21:06] <Luke771> matt__: to get people to join this channel?
[21:09] * DarkRat (n=DR2@) Quit ("Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur")
[21:14] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[21:29] <Tommy[D]> Does the installer not install it?
[21:31] * vi390 (n=fc@) has joined #freenet
[21:34] <matt__> nope
[21:34] <matt__> i remember it used to
[21:34] * vi390 (n=fc@) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:34] <matt__> but I just recently reinstalled my OS and have a fresh install of freenet
[21:34] <matt__> and it didn't have it in there
[21:54] * iznotsobad (n=iznotsob@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[21:57] <nixmus> i'm new, how can i finde freener "Frinds"
[21:58] <Tommy[D]> matt__: also not somewhere in the freenet dir?
[21:58] <nixmus> y
[21:58] <nixmus> new installed
[21:58] <toad_> nixmus: hi
[21:58] <Tommy[D]> nixmus: friends should be your real world friends, people you know and trust, else just use the default one, opennet
[21:59] <toad_> opennet = normal network security level
[21:59] <Tommy[D]> (lower the network security to normal)
[21:59] <toad_> imho at this stage you don't have to strongly trust your Friends
[21:59] <toad_> but they do have to be people you know
[21:59] <nixmus> ok, i havt openet testet and nothing, i can't open any side with opennet, so i think i must have "frinds" to ust freenet or?
[21:59] <toad_> to have improved security
[22:00] <Tommy[D]> How did you "test" opennet?
[22:00] <toad_> nixmus: ah, so you installed it, you went through the wizard, you set the network security level to NORMAL, and it still doesn't work?
[22:01] <toad_> nixmus: did you go through the wizard? did it open a browser window after the installer finished?
[22:01] * matt__ (n=matt@) Quit ("Leaving")
[22:02] <nixmus> a view month ago i installed opened and after i set the settings for opennet, and i cand klick on any side (dir. of so)
[22:02] <toad_> did it ask you about security levels?
[22:03] <toad_> you installed freenet months ago?
[22:03] <nixmus> no?
[22:03] <toad_> and you've only just tried to enable opennet?
[22:03] <toad_> or what?
[22:03] <toad_> when did you install freenet? what OS are you running on (windows, ubuntu, ???)?
[22:03] <nixmus> y, after i can nothing do i deinstalled it, and i now i want to test it for the second time
[22:03] <toad_> okay
[22:03] <nixmus> win
[22:03] <toad_> so you uninstalled it
[22:03] <toad_> and then you reinstalled it
[22:04] <toad_> and it doesn't work
[22:04] <nixmus> y
[22:04] <toad_> when the installer finished did it open a browser window?
[22:04] <nixmus> y
[22:04] <toad_> and you configured it to use NORMAL network security level?
[22:04] <nixmus> and the freenet side say: i MUST have frinds
[22:05] <toad_> what are your security levels set to?
[22:05] <toad_> it will say at the top of the page
[22:06] <nixmus> ok mom
[22:07] <toad_> what are you doing?
[22:07] <nixmus> Sicherheitslevel:: Netzwerk: HOCH, Freunde: NORMAL, Physikalisch: NORMAL (Neetwork hight, Frinds Normel, Phisikaly normel)
[22:07] <toad_> okay
[22:08] <toad_> your network security level is set to HIGH, you can only do that if you have friends to connect to
[22:08] <toad_> so you need to change it to NORMAL
[22:08] <nixmus> shoud i tet it lower?
[22:08] <nixmus> ok
[22:09] <toad_> if you click on the alert, then click on the bit where it says you can change the levels
[22:09] <toad_> then you can change it
[22:09] <nixmus> ok thx
[22:09] <toad_> let me know whether it starts working
[22:10] <nixmus> ok one mom plz
[22:12] <toad_> one moment here too, i gotta reboot, brb
[22:12] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[22:12] <nixmus> ok the first defuld bookmark-pages com
[22:12] <nixmus> are comming
[22:13] <Luke771> do you see a strangers page?
[22:13] <Luke771> in the left menu: connections to strangers
[22:13] <nixmus> I havent a link like strangers?!
[22:15] <Luke771> you have enabled insecure mode?
[22:16] <Tommy[D]> he set the network level to normal, so yes
[22:16] <Luke771> wait a minute, I think I may have spotted a bug
[22:16] <nixmus> y
[22:16] <Luke771> you set the security level to normal, and you don't have a link to 'connections to strangers'?
[22:17] <nixmus> NO (i have the german version but i HAVNT any link like this
[22:17] <Luke771> what'ìs the page called? opennet? strangers? I mean as in 127.0.0.1:8888/strangers
[22:17] <Luke771> well then we might have a bug, I'll try to figure that out later
[22:17] <Tommy[D]> hehe, so it is called "Fremde" :)
[22:18] <Luke771> in the meantime, you go to the configuration page, make sure you have enabled the advanced configuration (lcick on advanced interface), then scroll down to Node.opennet
[22:18] <Luke771> Fremds = strangers and freunde = friends?!?
[22:18] <Tommy[D]> yes
[22:18] <nixmus> ok
[22:18] <Luke771> now that's one confusing language
[22:19] <Luke771> ok so fremde
[22:19] <nixmus> ja yes i must wayt till the side is opend
[22:19] <Luke771> do you see a list of IP's wityh green or orange labels saying connected or busy (the german equivalent)?
[22:21] <Luke771> if you do see peers in the strangers page (fremde) then you're OK, just start exploring freenet
[22:22] <Tommy[D]> if the default bookmark images are loading, he is also ok :)
[22:22] <Luke771> and remeber that it may be quite slow when newly installed, it gets better with time -let it run as much as you can, ideally 24/7 but if you can't do that, running morning-to-night is also good
[22:22] <Luke771> hm
[22:22] <Luke771> yeah I guess so
[22:22] * toad_ (n=toad@) has joined #freenet
[22:22] <Luke771> I missed that
[22:22] <toad_> re
[22:22] <Luke771> did blueyonder change name, or toad swicthed isp?
[22:23] <kork> or the MI5 changed toad :D
[22:23] <Luke771> argh
[22:23] <Luke771> and the cia changed the mi5
[22:24] <toad_> switched ISP ages ago
[22:24] <Luke771> and of course, reptilian aliens changed the cia
[22:24] <kork> Luke771: and I changed the cia
[22:24] <kork> heh
[22:24] <toad_> kork we will be along to you shortly!
[22:24] <kork> off-topic again, sorry about that
[22:24] <toad_> argh, /msg
[22:24] <toad_> ;)
[22:24] <Luke771> anyhow, nixmis' node seems to be OK now
[22:24] <toad_> it works now? pages actually load? he has a Strangers page?
[22:25] * nixmus (n=dsf@) Quit ()
[22:25] * cdent (n=cdent@) Quit ()
[22:25] <toad_> to be precise, we switched ISP when we moved house (to a non-cable area)
[22:25] * amphibian (n=toad@) has joined #freenet
[22:25] <Luke771> sure
[22:26] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Client Quit)
[22:26] <amphibian> re-rehi
[22:29] * amphibian (n=toad@) Quit (Client Quit)
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[22:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
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[22:34] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[22:37] * kryptos23______ is now known as kryptos23
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[22:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
[22:46] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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[22:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
[22:52] <FreenetLogBot> r22714 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[22:55] * kryptos23_____ (n=kryptos@) Quit (Connection timed out)
[23:01] <FreenetLogBot> r22715 (1164) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[23:15] * kryptos23 (n=kryptos@) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.16/2008070205]")
[23:35] * archypetro (n=hellequi@) has left #freenet
[23:47] * toad_ (n=toad@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[23:49] * Johan^mlg (n=bllarf@) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
These logs were automatically created by FreenetLogBot on chat.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.