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[12:05] <toad_> rehi
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[12:10] <Cooo> hi
[12:12] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror2.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
[12:15] <Eol> lol toad_ .. actually had to look up rehi .. you know in 14 years of using IRC i have never seen anybody use it but you :)
[12:15] * toad_ got it from somebody else
[12:15] <toad_> re-hi
[12:15] <toad_> that's my usage of it
[12:15] <toad_> other people just say re
[12:15] <Eol> ja I know
[12:16] <kork> ja ja deine mudder
[12:16] <Eol> how goes the project?
[12:16] <toad_> if you have any urgent bugs/loiw cost high benefit features, mention them here for me
[12:16] * toad_ will be back in a couple of hours and have a look
[12:16] <toad_> cya
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[12:21] <batosai> toad_: I have one, adding WoT to the list of official plugins. r22618 looks stable to me :)
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[12:30] <nextgens> batosai> can't do that until the tagging is sorted out
[12:32] <batosai> nextgens: I was wondering what path to use tags/WoT/x.x.x ? ou tags/plugins/WoT/x.x.x ?
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[12:37] <nextgens> that's something I need to decide
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[12:37] <nextgens> keep working on your plugin, I'll do the tagging
[12:37] <batosai> ok
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[12:42] <Eol> btw does fuqid still work with 0.7 (or whatever the latest version is)? anybody actually maintaining it?
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[12:43] <nextgens> no and no
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[12:43] <nextgens> use thaw
[12:43] <batosai> Eol: try Thaw instead
[12:44] <Eol> i hate thaw .. so that leaves frost then for d/l and u/l
[12:44] <Eol> still liked fuqid the best but will get using it if no longe rsupported
[12:44] <batosai> thaw and frosts works exactly the same with 0.7, so yes
[12:44] <Eol> kk
[12:46] <nextgens> batosai> no
[12:46] <nextgens> frost is broken
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[12:46] <batosai> nextgens: for insert/downloads ?
[12:46] <nextgens> as it doesn't implement testDDA
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[12:46] <batosai> aw, didn't know worry
[12:46] <batosai> *sorry
[12:47] <nextgens> Eol> your options are thaw or fproxy then
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[13:52] <Divine_> Has Freenet become usable as a web serving platform since Freenet 6?
[13:52] <Divine_> I remember it was really slow and annoying
[13:52] <Divine_> Anyone care to shed some light?
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[13:54] <nextgens> annoying?
[13:54] <nextgens> of course it has evolved in two yeard
[13:54] <nextgens> years
[13:56] <Divine_> ah okay... sorry to be annoying... just sometimes asking questions is easier.
[13:58] <Divine_> Um... web design through Freenet? Can you setup websites that use Affiliate Advertising like Adbrite and such?
[13:58] <Divine_> That is... is it possible to run websites that monetise through it? Last I recall, you use static html pages and not dynamic. Can this be done?
[13:59] <Divine_> You uploaded the website, received a key and that was how you accessed the page. That meant you couldnt use php or anything dynamic but only static files itself. In theory, you had to make scripts to create hundreds of pages and upload them to Freenet weekly or something.
[14:00] <Divine_> So... if I uploaded a Static HTML page, would it be possible to bring in Adbrite or something?
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[14:03] <Divine_> Im curious because if things have improved to the point where web designers can actually have some control over what they're doing, then I wouldnt mind designing some quality websites for it?
[14:06] <nextgens> there hasn't been any work done on that area
[14:06] <nextgens> now we are using containers and stuffs, it's probably faster than last time you tried it
[14:07] <nextgens> but regarding dynamic content nothing has changed: we have plans to implement it but no one has done anything
[14:07] <Divine_> righto... any gossip on that front? thoughts, proposals, dates?
[14:07] <Divine_> That'd be so awesome.
[14:08] <nextgens> it's a complex topic, and until now we have always been postponning such matters
[14:09] <nextgens> so no, there is no date casted into the stone
[14:09] <nextgens> my guess is that it will be post 1.0 stuff
[14:09] <nextgens> ie: probably not implemented before a decade, if ever
[14:09] <Divine_> ah righto... fair enough...
[14:10] <nextgens> we have difficulties managing the small amount of time we have
[14:10] <nextgens> we can't really implement such a meta-feature until the network doesn't need to be worked on anymore
[14:11] <nextgens> it would be a time-sink
[14:11] <Divine_> I understand... from the outside looking in, its an exciting project...
[14:11] <Divine_> and Search would be the same? There was rumour that it was being worked on?
[14:11] <nextgens> well, if you are interrested in implementing it we can provide you guidance ;)
[14:12] <nextgens> search has been worked on
[14:12] <nextgens> but it's still not up to what we want it to be
[14:13] <nextgens> next stable build (eta less than one week) should feature some new-search-related-stuffs
[14:14] <Divine_> no worries... Is there cvs or place to look at code anywhere?
[14:15] <Divine_> No that I think Im skilled... I can program a little but dont think I'd be up to something this big.
[14:15] <nextgens> we use subversion
[14:15] <nextgens> there is a link to the public repository on the website
[14:15] <Divine_> okay
[14:16] <Divine_> great
[14:17] <nextgens> bbiab
[14:19] <Divine_> Sounds like the only way for you guys to accept dynamic content is to either design an API of sorts, or, some kind of internal parsing which loads the page and parses it on output from the proxy?
[14:20] <nextgens> the problem with dymamic content is network-latency
[14:20] <nextgens> what we can do at some point is client scripting
[14:20] <nextgens> ie: allow javascripting
[14:20] <Divine_> So accessing databases is waaay off.
[14:20] <nextgens> but to do that properly we need to update the content filter for it to understand js
[14:21] <nextgens> Divine_> freenet itself is a database
[14:21] <nextgens> or can be used as a database
[14:21] <nextgens> depending on which property of a database you're looking after
[14:22] <Divine_> I understand what you mean.
[14:22] <nextgens> the problem with allowing javascripting is that it requires to "understand" the script itself
[14:22] <Divine_> So... a simple shopping cart I guess? You could have a text file stored via changeable key in Freenet and, javascript loads and parses the information?
[14:23] <nextgens> and the only way we can do that is to double-parse the javascript code...
[14:23] <Divine_> ouch
[14:23] <nextgens> using a vm in the content filter and one in the browser
[14:23] <Divine_> or create your own markup language?
[14:23] <nextgens> yeah
[14:23] <nextgens> but noone would use it
[14:23] <nextgens> and I'm not convinced it's any simpler
[14:23] <Divine_> I see.. so you'd have to make it javascript to remain consistent.
[14:24] <Divine_> Easy transition... more people coming in and using it.
[14:24] <nextgens> for your cart thingy...
[14:24] <nextgens> we could allow some kind of cookies
[14:24] <nextgens> with javascript it should do what you want
[14:25] <Divine_> I just used that as a simple example of real world web app
[14:25] <nextgens> zmanTl3YrK
[14:25] <nextgens> hrrrm
[14:25] <nextgens> time to change it I guess
[14:28] <Divine_> Yeah, Freenets LAMP all over again heh.
[14:28] <Divine_> Without the L
[14:30] <nextgens> freenet isn't meant to be used like most LAMP setups
[14:31] <nextgens> freenet is a cheap way of distributing possibly big amounts of data to *many* people
[14:31] <nextgens> I wouldn't say that the current implementation is efficient at it
[14:31] <nextgens> but well, it should be
[14:32] <nextgens> and that's what we are working on
[14:34] <Divine_> More like anonymous P2P?
[14:34] <Divine_> Anonymous Bittorrent with better routing algorithm
[14:35] <nextgens> bittorent is centralized
[14:35] <nextgens> freenet is also about censorship resistence
[14:36] <Divine_> yeah, Im with you, but acts in a similiar purpose... though, the design is completely different.
[14:36] <nextgens> bittorrent isn't about routing, they don't route anything :)
[14:37] <Divine_> So its more like a file sharing utility than a web serving utility
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[14:41] <Divine_> a CHK key was the one which you could change, over and over again, wasnt it?
[14:47] <nextgens> no, it's USKs
[14:49] <Divine_> Ah okay... ah, InsertableUSK.java
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[14:56] <Divine_> Hmm okay... so, I want a key. ( FreenetStore.java :: fetch( ) ) I must check for Memory, then Hard Drive store, then if not, out into the big Network world ( Node I presume? Handling all of the inter-computer chatting ). I assume that each of these Memory and Hard Drive Store has some kind of encrypted Key Table of Contents somewhere... it would have to know how to know how to extract its own Key somehow.
[14:59] <Divine_> Ah... BerkeleyDBFreenetStore.java
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[15:06] <Divine_> How are you guys going to be as this project _matures_ and you reach a position where you might need to integrate with existing libraries and codebases? Like, php library for dynamics or something?
[15:07] <Divine_> Im not fully aware... can Java integrate with external libraries? PHP, C parsers and the like (if they exist? Im not sure) ?
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[15:12] <Divine_> The impression Im getting is that the 'node' area is where all the fancy stuff is happening but, scriptable parsing will be required, probably hooked in as a plugin at a later date ( if I understand anything? ) but its possible there might be libraries you guys could hook into which might save a whole lot of work, and re-inventing the wheel?
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[15:15] <Divine_> Ala: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/Rhino
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[15:16] <Divine_> Mozilla Java implementation of Javascript
[15:22] <nextgens> that's something we could use yeah
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[16:03] <toad_> batosai: well tested? what scale can it do?
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[16:05] <toad_> Divine_: you don't NEED to monetise on freenet cos there are no hosting costs
[16:06] <toad_> <nextgens> next stable build (eta less than one week) should feature some new-search-related-stuffs
[16:06] <toad_> nextgens: huh?
[16:07] <batosai> toad_: it passes ll the tests I used to do with 0.3.0, without making the same errors
[16:08] <toad_> Divine_: how do you propose to use freenet to implement online shopping?
[16:08] <toad_> Divine_: you would submit an order via freemail?
[16:08] <toad_> nextgens: modern bittorrent has a DHT doesn't it?
[16:09] <toad_> Divine_: we are using quite a lot of external code now, and third party apps can either integrate as plugins or use FCP
[16:09] <batosai> toad_: about scale, I didn't do more tests than I did at the beginning
[16:12] <batosai> and btw, I think the only valid test is to have a true WoT with a few hundreds identities
[16:12] <toad_> yeah... how's saces getting on with the FMS clone?
[16:12] <batosai> only then we could do profiling on ressource consumption, etc...
[16:12] <batosai> dunno
[16:12] <toad_> RESULT: Fetch took 485504ms (8m5s) of CHK@XBWh8N8M5Qm3xUomrZN3J~eSc6gYRyk2HK~jpNRRAn4,YnU3QZA34pkkh-s7eJCYY4Hpcm~MmjQLETmY5yVVs~w,AAIC--8 .
[16:12] <toad_> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
[16:12] <toad_> EIGHT MINUTES ?!!?!?!!?!?!
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[16:14] <batosai> and of course, we need client dev's feedback on what they need
[16:15] * toad_ is worried that FOAF is somehow making things worse
[16:15] <toad_> one fluke result shouldn't be enough to revert it still ... although yesterday it was 3 minutes, which is still on the high side...
[16:16] <toad_> maybe we need more simulations
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[16:34] <saces> someone around who want help to hack the FMS clone this weekend?
[16:34] <toad_> saces: how's it going?
[16:34] <toad_> saces: is there anything you need help on?
[16:35] <toad_> saces: the WoT will be an official plugin very soon, is there any chance you could make the fms plugin official too?
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[16:58] <saces> toad_: FMSPlugin is ok as name?
[16:58] <toad_> fine by me
[16:58] <toad_> you might want to ask somedude :)
[16:58] <toad_> but it sounds okay
[16:58] <toad_> is it just the backend? no real interface except FCP?
[16:58] <toad_> an interface would be a separate plugin?
[16:59] <toad_> if so, i suggest FMSBackend or something that makes it obvious
[16:59] <saces> if not SomeDude need to find a court that acceps anonymous :P
[16:59] <toad_> ;)
[17:01] <saces> the plugin is the backend with a light web-ui
[17:01] <toad_> saces: and an fcp interface as well?
[17:01] <toad_> are you planning to make the web ui fully functional and easy to use?
[17:02] <toad_> do you want to separate them or keep them together?
[17:02] <saces> ident creation/delete and database backup/restore is done
[17:03] <toad_> isn't that FMS stuff?
[17:05] <toad_> errr I mean WoT stuff?
[17:05] <toad_> is there any plugin infrastructure work you urgently need me to do e.g. plugin dependancies?
[17:06] <saces> if you dont need trust it will work without WoT
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[17:09] <toad_> saces: how does and FMSPlugin identity differ from a WoT identity?
[17:09] <FreenetLogBot> r22630 (FMSPlugin) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:10] <toad_> I suppose it's separate, although it shares the same keys?
[17:11] <saces> it uses the same key, but data/names differs.
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[17:25] <batosai> saces: do you know you could use WoT identities ? You can set as many custom properties as you need...
[17:25] <batosai> would be better IMHO
[17:26] <saces> it will autosync
[17:27] <batosai> sync what ? name ? properties ?
[17:27] <saces> the idents.
[17:27] <saces> between FMS<->WoT
[17:27] <batosai> oh, you mean you will insert FMS id and update WoT id accordingly ?
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[17:28] <saces> yes, at least this is the plan.
[17:29] <toad_> is the plan to be compatible with the C FMS?
[17:29] <batosai> I don't understand why you want to do the job twice
[17:29] <toad_> I know you use the same data formats, but do you publish the trusts lists? convert the FMS ones?
[17:29] <toad_> or is it to be completely separate?
[17:29] * batosai is not sure compatibility with FMS is a good thing
[17:30] <toad_> me neither, but there's a large seed community there...
[17:30] <Smar> I smell something fishy in fms...
[17:30] <toad_> something fishy?
[17:30] <toad_> you mean the fact that nobody has reviewed the code since 0.2.X?
[17:30] * toad_ hasn't had time
[17:30] <Smar> I don’t know what. it just doesn’t ... seems to behave correctly
[17:30] <toad_> there was a bug relating to content filtering (I won't say where), I hope that's been fixed
[17:31] <Smar> just a hunch.
[17:31] <toad_> an exploitable bug
[17:31] * cdent (n=cdent@) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[17:31] <batosai> if it was up to me, I would go for a fresh design and rely fully on the WoT for idenitites handling
[17:31] <toad_> well, let me know if you need anything - IMHO the future of freenet depends on WoT as much as anything
[17:32] <toad_> in the short term at least
[17:33] <batosai> but, like toad, I will do anything I can to help you. If you need anything in the WoT, feel free to ask
[17:33] <saces> batosai: the FMSPlugin and the C GMS are full data compatible, this is a good idea imho.
[17:34] <toad_> well, now that you've committed it as an official plugin, i'll send reviews to devl when i'm able to
[17:34] * nico_32 (n=user@) has joined #freenet
[17:34] <batosai> well, you are the boss. it's just that I don't like their file formats and USK tricks...
[17:34] <toad_> saces: if they are not trust compatible at all then what's the point?
[17:35] <saces> batosai: the question "accept messages from ident" goes different ways.
[17:37] <batosai> Also SomeDude and I totally disagree on trust values
[17:37] <batosai> He thinks trust is there to tell who like and who you don't
[17:38] <batosai> My opinion is it is just here to protect from spam, nothing else
[17:38] <toad_> isn't that another way to say the same thing?
[17:38] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror1.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
[17:39] <toad_> I mean, is spam a boolean?
[17:39] <batosai> so in my opinion, trust values should be given automgically by the software
[17:39] <batosai> you answer to someone, you give him 10 points
[17:39] <toad_> 10 points may be too much
[17:39] <batosai> toad_: IMO it is
[17:40] <toad_> but some points yeah
[17:40] <batosai> values can be tweaked of course
[17:40] <FreenetLogBot> r22631 (1163) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:40] <toad_> batosai: what if a spammer has a "legit" identity wich also trusts lots of spam identities?
[17:40] <toad_> how does either system deal with that?
[17:41] <batosai> I don't know how his does
[17:41] <toad_> how does yours?
[17:41] <saces> toad_: if the FMSPlugin does not know a trust (wot not loaded , not implemented, whatever why) it will only watch explicit given outboxes.
[17:41] <toad_> saces: ok
[17:41] <toad_> saces: so it relies on other FMSPlugin's
[17:41] <batosai> in mine, when you set an identity as a spammer, you can ask for identities that trusted it, and mark them down accordingly
[17:42] <toad_> if the density is above some value then there will be enough data to assemble a subset WoT
[17:42] <toad_> batosai: that's more or less what i figured
[17:42] <toad_> batosai: of course each tool using the WoT will need a UI for this ...
[17:43] <batosai> not necessarilly, other plugins can point to WoT web's interface
[17:44] <toad_> right
[17:44] <batosai> gtg bbiab
[17:44] <saces> there should be a way to talk with a bad guys, mark him bad to warn others and talk with the bad guy on an other thread, maybe to try brainwash him ;)
[17:45] <toad_> that's why FMS has trust list trust and message trust
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[18:05] <toad_> how important is hard bandwidth limiting?
[18:05] <FreenetLogBot> r22632 (1163) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[18:05] * toad_ could implement it *relatively* easily ...
[18:06] <toad_> there would need to be support for a token bucket for remote packets on the PacketSender
[18:06] * mpp (n=user@) Quit ("good night - good fight")
[18:06] <toad_> hard congestion control would be significantly more work
[18:07] <toad_> but isn't so urgent
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[18:15] <FreenetLogBot> r22633 (1163) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[18:18] <ordex> hi
[18:26] <toad_> hi
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[18:55] * infinity0 (n=infinity@) Quit ("Leaving.")
[18:57] <batosai> saces: there are two tasks here :
[18:57] <batosai> ) tell the others -> WoT's job
[18:58] <batosai> 2) remember of an identity you want to see despite the WoT -> client job
[18:58] <batosai> ;)
[18:58] <batosai> me.eat(fries)
[18:58] <batosai> bbl
[18:59] <saces> use ketchup to remove unwanted taste ;)
[19:01] <ordex> XD
[19:15] <saces> batosai: 2) is no problem, FMSPlug have already its own ident storage
[19:20] <FreenetLogBot> r22634 (FMSPlugin) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[19:21] <nextgens> hi
[19:22] <toad_> nextgens: hey
[19:23] <toad_> nextgens: i just committed no swap on opennet
[19:23] <toad_> nextgens: what else is up?
[19:23] * toad_ getting some reports of updating not working ... Dieppe is unable to reproduce though...
[19:24] <toad_> at least with trunk, which has had some changes...
[19:28] <nextgens> not much, I might have found my new squat :)
[19:28] <toad_> yay
[19:29] <toad_> it is good to have somewhere to live
[19:29] <toad_> | We have recently sent 5 announcements, 1 of which are still running, and added 0 nodes (79 nodes have rejected us).
[19:29] <toad_> :|
[19:31] <nextgens> toad_> if no one is going at gSoC mentor summit I'd like to go
[19:31] <toad_> talk to ian about it
[19:31] <toad_> sanity_: here?
[19:31] <sanity_> toad_: on phone
[19:31] <toad_> sanity_: would it be hypocritical and extravagant to send nextgens to the summit given he hasn't been involved in GSoC at all this year?
[19:31] <toad_> ok we wait
[19:31] <toad_> and given our one and only student failed?
[19:32] * Caco_Patane (n=caco@) has joined #freenet
[19:33] <toad_> the other question is whether you can be trusted to represent us i.e. whether i have to go with you :) ... dbkr isn't available?
[19:33] <toad_> dbkr: are you available?
[19:33] <toad_> dbkr: for a free trip to america?
[19:33] <nextgens> well, it's not only about what has been or what hasn't been done
[19:33] <nextgens> their year was a failure; we need to take action to ensure next won't be
[19:33] <nextgens> *this
[19:34] <toad_> sure
[19:34] <toad_> if we do participate next year
[19:34] <nextgens> yeah
[19:34] <toad_> is it a good idea to do so?
[19:34] <nextgens> I think so
[19:34] <toad_> that's one of the things we need to decide
[19:35] <nextgens> it would be silly for us not to
[19:35] <toad_> why?
[19:35] <nextgens> because it's a great opportunity?
[19:35] <toad_> opportunity for what?
[19:36] <nextgens> getting new people involved; fresh blood
[19:37] <nextgens> and in rare occasions getting some work done
[19:38] <nextgens> toad_> take it by the other end: why shouldn't we participate?
[19:38] <toad_> hmmm, updating works for me, at least with trunk
[19:39] <nextgens> because it's a time sink?
[19:39] <toad_> hmmm, it announces even though it has a bunch of peers that reconnect?
[19:39] <toad_> maybe we're announcing on every restart and maybe this is why announcing is so slow and unsuccessful?
[19:40] <toad_> nextgens: right
[19:40] * mpp (n=user@) Quit ("good night - good fight")
[19:41] <FreenetLogBot> r22635 (FMSPlugin) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[19:42] <nextgens> well, you're paid for your time, I'm not
[19:42] <toad_> if you want to be a mentor, that'd be fine by me
[19:42] <nextgens> and I don't think it's a time sink
[19:43] <nextgens> well, that's what I was this year
[19:43] <nextgens> a mentor without any student
[19:43] <sanity_> toad_: if Google pays - sure
[19:44] <sanity_> I'm not sure the project could afford that
[19:44] <sanity_> nextgens: I think you should definitely go
[19:47] <nextgens> sanity_> and what about next year's involvment?
[19:47] <nextgens> do you think too that gsoc is a time sink and we shouldn't spend any of toad's precious time on it?
[19:48] <nextgens> imho it's not such a time sink... it's just a mid-long term investment
[19:48] <sanity_> nextgens: GSoc should be a great way to get people to work on client apps, installers, etc
[19:48] <toad_> well of course the project can't pay for flights (or hotels for that matter)
[19:49] <sanity_> its disappointing that it hasn't been, we need to work out why we've had such trouble getting successful projects together
[19:49] <FreenetLogBot> r22636 (1163) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[19:49] <sanity_> nextgens: perhaps if you go to GSoc, you can talk to other projects and find out what worked and what did
[19:49] <sanity_> n't
[19:50] <nextgens> that's the idea, yeah
[19:50] <toad_> that is the purpose of the conference
[19:50] <nextgens> improving the program for next year
[19:50] <sanity_> so I think that would be well worth it - assuming Google is willing to cover your travel and accomodation
[19:52] <Dieppe> here is a little mockup : http://doc-fr.freenetproject.org/Fproxy_mockup (tell me what you're thinking about it)
[19:52] <toad_> you're the first person to do that...
[19:53] <nextgens> toad_> hmm?
[19:53] <toad_> heh lol
[19:53] <toad_> Dieppe: what about bookmarks?
[19:53] <toad_> imho being exclusively reliant on a big search box is gonna get us into trouble
[19:53] <Dieppe> dunno where to put them, maybe on a dedicated tab
[19:54] <sanity_> any change in the uninstallation survey results since our UI changes?
[19:54] <toad_> underneath the search box
[19:54] <batosai> personnaly, I like it (especially the 'slickness' effect)
[19:54] <toad_> nextgens: where is the new spreadsheet, you said you'd reset it?
[19:54] <Dieppe> well, then the bookmarks should be at bottom of the search box
[19:54] <batosai> I think this is the ind of eye-candy we need
[19:54] <nextgens> toad_> it has been reset
[19:54] <toad_> | I think we should add all features the regular social networks have. That could make Freenet the first anonymous and encrypted social network (in addition of all its nowadays features).
[19:54] <sanity_> Dieppe: looks great!
[19:54] <toad_> I agree
[19:54] <toad_> re social networking
[19:54] <toad_> but I dunno exactly what that entails
[19:54] <nextgens> Dieppe> make a css out of it
[19:54] <sanity_> toad_: we should consider migrating FProxy to use GWT
[19:54] <Dieppe> sanity_: thx :)
[19:55] <toad_> sanity_: what Dieppe has done does not require GWT
[19:55] <batosai> Dieppe: maybe you could use the same colors (blue/orange) for progress bars ?
[19:55] <Dieppe> nextgens: I'll try that
[19:55] <sanity_> toad_: especially if we are integrating chat as GWT makes AJAX stuff easy
[19:55] <sanity_> toad_: I know, but GWT might help
[19:55] <sanity_> toad_: have you played with it?
[19:55] <Dieppe> batosai: good idea yep
[19:55] <sanity_> toad_: you should, its pretty amazing
[19:55] <toad_> probably be a lot of work, make it slow in slow browsers...?
[19:55] <sanity_> toad_: GWT? nah
[19:55] <toad_> google spreadsheets is incredibly slow in my browser for example
[19:56] <nextgens> sanity_> toad_> 27 responses so far
[19:56] <toad_> granted that's because i use ssh -X
[19:56] <sanity_> nextgens: what is the URL again?
[19:56] <toad_> but no other site is slow because of that
[19:56] <nextgens> sanity_> it has changed : http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pARgKQ0i0ggoRv6Tba_fXdA&hl=en
[19:56] <toad_> Dieppe: how would the button "Invite a new friend!" work?
[19:56] <sanity_> nextgens: you'll need to grant access
[19:57] <sanity_> toad_: it definitely wouldn't be slow over a local connection
[19:57] <toad_> nextgens: you haven't done that
[19:57] <nextgens> doh sorry
[19:57] <Dieppe> toad_: dunno yet, pmpp and me have some ideas, but I'm not sure they can work
[19:57] <toad_> sanity_: it is a local connection, ssh -X on localhost cos i'm paranoid
[19:58] <toad_> sux doesn't do protocol filtering and i like to use a different user to browse
[19:58] <toad_> anyway, if you say it'll work in normal browsers, then that's ok
[19:58] <toad_> nextgens: i don't have access either
[19:58] <sanity_> toad_: you should play with it, you'll like it
[19:58] <nextgens> done
[19:58] <sanity_> toad: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/examples/hello/
[19:59] <nextgens> so far the policy has bee nto restrict the javascript code to a minimum
[19:59] <nextgens> the profile we vbundle has it disabled iirc
[20:00] <toad_> yeah
[20:00] <toad_> it would be useful for chat
[20:00] <sanity_> well, the UI could be on a different port to the proxy
[20:00] <toad_> how would that help/
[20:01] <sanity_> toad_: oh, right - the JS restriction isn't port specific
[20:01] <sanity_> but fproxy filters javascript anyway, right:?
[20:01] <sanity_> we really need JS to do chat in a reasonable way
[20:02] <toad_> Dieppe: you also have to have *completed* downloads
[20:02] <toad_> sanity_: it may be possible to tell FF to not use JS
[20:02] <toad_> sanity_: on a specific port
[20:02] <toad_> I dunno how far that work has got
[20:02] <ordex> toad_: noscript plugin for firefox do this
[20:02] <toad_> Dieppe: final point ... you need to post this to the mailing list!
[20:03] <toad_> in response to ian's call for layouts#
[20:04] <Dieppe> toad_: I'll post that to the devl when it'll be more complete
[20:04] <toad_> on the friends page, See profile will be greyed out if they don't publish a profile, of course
[20:05] <Dieppe> and yeah, I didn't thought about the complete download ^^"
[20:05] <toad_> i do think there's a lot of possibility in the distributed social networking thing
[20:05] * batosai bookmarks GWT for later ;)
[20:05] <toad_> i just didn't really know enough about them to propose much
[20:05] <ordex> i am afraid about gwt...no link with google in the code?
[20:06] <toad_> publishing your friends list to your friends will make them visible if you click on them on the friends page ... and when you have a 3 way chat
[20:07] <toad_> what happens if you chat with 2 friends who are not on each others lists and none of you publishes your friends list?
[20:07] <nextgens> okay, I need to fix my keyboard
[20:07] <nextgens> and my irc coand my inet connection so that I won't be typing blind
[20:07] <toad_> Dieppe: should publishing your profile be a separate setting from friends trust?
[20:08] <toad_> Dieppe: we could have a range of settings for each friend, but I was thinking we'd have a per-friend trust level for routing etc
[20:08] <toad_> if it's set to high trust we can do some fun optimisations
[20:09] <toad_> also we're gonna have two different profiles - my profile for friends, and my configuration settings (security levels etc)
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[20:09] <toad_> I should like to see a mockup implemented with HTML and CSS
[20:10] <toad_> that could then be adopted relatively easily
[20:10] <toad_> w.r.t. games, there were proposals a long time back to implement tunneling over Freenet, nextgens was playing with that
[20:10] <toad_> like hamachi
[20:10] <toad_> but with your Friends only
[20:13] <toad_> we'd want to change the connection statuses to make them more f2fish ... Busy (Backed Off) becomes Connected (Busy) and so on
[20:13] <toad_> Connected (Too Old), Connected (Too New) etc
[20:13] <sanity_> toad_: if we are going to use GWT, the design must be expressed in CSS
[20:13] <sanity_> toad_: GWT is a higher-level UI language than HTML
[20:14] <toad_> sanity_: the design must be expressed in CSS full stop
[20:14] <toad_> sanity_: our current themes are CSS
[20:14] <sanity_> toad_: you should play with GWT - see what you think
[20:14] <toad_> so far i see a button which opens a dialog box
[20:15] * archangelpetro (n=hellequi@) Quit ("<CENSORED>")
[20:15] <toad_> sanity_: also, if we use GWT, we will need to go to GPL3 to be compatible with ASL2
[20:15] <sanity_> toad_: I'm cool with that
[20:15] <toad_> well, it might mean some rewriting
[20:15] <toad_> it would certainly mean some work
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[20:17] <sanity_> toad_: rewriting?
[20:17] * archangelpetro (n=hellequi@) has joined #freenet
[20:17] <sanity_> toad_: of what?
[20:18] <toad_> Dieppe: FYI i think it's awesome, in the past when i've proposed to get social networking features in people have given a blank stare, and i haven't known enough about them
[20:18] <toad_> sanity_: any code that we still use that's written by somebody we've failed to contact
[20:19] <sanity_> toad_: screw that
[20:19] <Dieppe> toad_: well, thx :)
[20:19] <toad_> sanity_: there isn't much of it fortunately
[20:19] <sanity_> toad_: we should just do it, announce to the mailing list
[20:19] <toad_> but we need to go over it
[20:19] <Dieppe> and I think that social networking over Freenet could be a great feature in order to have user try it
[20:20] <sanity_> if someone wants to sue us (very unlikely), THEN we can rewrite their code
[20:20] <sanity_> no need to do it preemptive
[20:20] <sanity_> ly
[20:20] <toad_> sanity_: nobody ever assigned copyright to us, and it's arguable that freenet is GPL2 since we never made it clear
[20:21] <sanity_> toad_: it would be silly to waste your time rewriting code just on the off-chance that someone decides to annoy us. if someone wants to make an issue of it, then we should deal with it *then*
[20:21] <sanity_> anyway, why can't we use GWT with GPL2?
[20:21] <toad_> including the damages the court orders?
[20:21] <toad_> because the FSF says ASL2 and GPL2 are not compatible
[20:21] <toad_> of course the ASF says they are :|
[20:22] <nextgens> we already use asl2 code
[20:22] <toad_> where?
[20:22] <sanity_> toad_: look, this is bullshit - it is extremely unlikely that anyone would give a crap about this
[20:23] <sanity_> if you look hard enough, you'll find a law that says you can't do pretty much anything
[20:23] <sanity_> you have to be sensible
[20:23] <sanity_> and pragmatic
[20:23] <toad_> you have to respect people's property, don't you?
[20:23] <sanity_> law != code
[20:23] <sanity_> toad_: no, I'm a communist, property is theft
[20:23] <nextgens> toad_> isn't the unit testing framework asl2
[20:24] <toad_> am I automatically indemnified against civil suits by FPI's ordering them?
[20:24] <toad_> as a contractor?
[20:24] <toad_> nextgens: we don't bundle that
[20:24] <toad_> we just use it if it's available
[20:24] <sanity_> toad_: anyone can sue you at any time for any reason
[20:25] <sanity_> toad_: if you don't want to risk that, I recommend you lock your door, throw away your computer, and never talk or interact with anyone ever again
[20:25] <toad_> well i guess you're the big target
[20:25] <toad_> you want to make the announcement?
[20:26] <sanity_> toad_: what announcement?
[20:26] <toad_> or shall we stick with GPL2+ and hope that ASL2 compatibility isn't a problem?
[20:26] <sanity_> toad_: yes
[20:26] <toad_> the announcement that we're going GPL3+
[20:26] <toad_> ok, lets do that
[20:26] <sanity_> we aren't going to GPL3 if the Apache foundation claims ASL2 is compible
[20:26] <sanity_> compatible
[20:26] <toad_> even though the FSF says the opposite
[20:27] * nextgens thinks it's a good idea to go gplv3
[20:27] <sanity_> this really is legal nitpicking of the worst kind
[20:27] * sanity_ doesn't think its a good idea unless there is a concrete reason to
[20:27] <toad_> ok, so we can incorporate ASL2 stuff if we want to
[20:27] <toad_> the commons compress library would be useful for example
[20:27] <sanity_> yes
[20:27] <nextgens> so would the lzma one
[20:28] <toad_> for more efficient containers
[20:28] <nextgens> yeah, we are talking about the same then
[20:28] <toad_> i.e. smaller (faster) download when you open a freesite
[20:28] <sanity_> if you are looking for reasons not to do stuff, the law will always provide them. the trick is to look for reasons you *can* do stuff
[20:28] <nextgens> also the javascript VM called ruby someone talked about earlier
[20:28] <toad_> well yeah in the long term
[20:29] <toad_> imho scripting is post-1.0 at this point
[20:29] <toad_> or at least post-0.8
[20:29] <toad_> probably post-0.9
[20:29] <sanity_> toad_: so will you look at GWT?
[20:29] <sanity_> toad_: if nothing else, it will be a good thing to have on your CV ;-)
[20:29] <toad_> sanity_: what exactly do we want it for?
[20:30] <toad_> sanity_: are we completely certain that we can't have a good chat UI without using javascript?
[20:30] <sanity_> toad_: to make fproxy look better, and make fproxy development easier. also, to support IM
[20:30] <toad_> if javascript is vital for chat, then we should seriously consider it
[20:30] <sanity_> toad_: I'm not certain we can't, but I'd say we probably can't, and even if we can, it would be a lot more work
[20:30] * nextgens isn't sure it will ease the development of fproxy
[20:30] <toad_> of course it will break all the existing installs because the profile has javascript turned off
[20:31] <toad_> well, frankly, HTML is easy
[20:31] <toad_> doing stuff like chat in HTML is hard
[20:31] <toad_> GWT may make it easier
[20:31] <sanity_> toad_: building sophisticated UIs in HTML isn't easy
[20:31] <sanity_> and fproxy is now getting pretty sophisticated
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[20:31] <toad_> building most of that mockup in HTML and CSS is easy
[20:31] <nextgens> sure but we don't need/want sophisticated stuffs, do we?
[20:31] <sanity_> also, GWT takes care of a lot of the grunt work
[20:31] <toad_> as long as he gives us a CSS, we're fine
[20:31] <toad_> it's stuff like chat that's harder
[20:31] <nextgens> sanity_> a lot of people are actually using freenet on headless systems
[20:32] * caytchen (n=caytchen@) Quit (Connection timed out)
[20:32] <toad_> nextgens: sure but they share it over a LAN
[20:32] <nextgens> we can't possibly require them to use a js-enabled browser
[20:32] <sanity_> nextgens: it can be easy to use, while requiring sophisticated coding to achieve
[20:32] <toad_> nextgens: don't they?
[20:32] <nextgens> how? the wizard can't be done over lan
[20:32] <toad_> it can be if you configure it ...
[20:32] <toad_> but you won't normally configure it until after you've installed it
[20:32] <nextgens> setting the three undocumented parameters ?
[20:32] <toad_> but otoh can't we expect them to know about ssh -L ?
[20:33] <nextgens> no we can't
[20:33] <toad_> I mean this is a minority we're talking about here, fairly deep geeks
[20:33] <toad_> if they have a headless system, they know about ssh, surely?
[20:33] <nextgens> if we could we wouldn't be questionning about the friendlyness of the ui
[20:33] <toad_> nextgens: like i said they're a minority, we have to improve the UI for *the other people*
[20:33] <toad_> the average user
[20:34] <toad_> I can however see a strong argument that it should be usable in a text mode browser
[20:34] <toad_> if only from an accessibility standpoint
[20:34] <toad_> but maybe chat is something that can't be realistically done in a text mode browser
[20:34] <nextgens> hmm?
[20:34] <toad_> that doesn't mean the rest of the UI can't be accessible on a text mode browser
[20:34] <nextgens> it has been done like that for years
[20:35] <nextgens> the french word for it is "tribune"
[20:35] <toad_> nextgens: hmmm?
[20:35] <toad_> nextgens: what has been done?
[20:35] <nextgens> https://linuxfr.org//board/
[20:35] <nextgens> chat over text-mode-browsers
[20:35] <toad_> I mean real-time chat with peers
[20:35] * caytchen_ (n=caytchen@) Quit (Connection timed out)
[20:35] <toad_> which is an important part of the social networking agenda
[20:36] <nextgens> well that's real-time too
[20:36] <toad_> well it updates when you say something
[20:36] <nextgens> it's just refreshing the page once in a while
[20:36] <toad_> it's not very user friendly though
[20:36] <nextgens> we have no network latency in between fproxy and the browser ; we can refresh as much as we want
[20:36] <toad_> well, most recent messages at the top
[20:36] <toad_> so it's reasonable
[20:37] <toad_> also we could use frames, have the input box separate from the conversation itself
[20:37] <toad_> i've seen that on various sites
[20:37] <toad_> well at least one
[20:38] <toad_> so we update it when you type something, and every 5 seconds in any case? how clean is an update though?
[20:38] <toad_> if nothing has changed then there is no visible sign?
[20:38] <toad_> you get a half-hourglass at least?
[20:40] <toad_> Dieppe: why do we need a separate Manage my friends tab?
[20:50] <Dieppe> toad_: what's the other place where we manage our friends ?
[20:50] <kork> yikes... my persistent-temp dir is 2.4 mb in size. even though it's empty
[20:50] <kork> guess some heavy grinding going on in there :D
[20:53] <toad_> Dieppe: well, why can't you set trust levels and remove friends from the main friends page?
[20:53] <toad_> the overview
[20:53] <toad_> also re chat, will there be multiple chats going on simultaneously? there probably should be support for this ...
[20:54] <Dieppe> yep, there are tabs : dunno if it's possible without javascript though...
[20:54] <toad_> and if your peer adds somebody to a chat and you don't have access to his profile, should he have a short name especially for such things, should he show up as his nick, should he show up as Friend of Blah ?
[20:54] <toad_> tabs are easy
[20:54] <toad_> you're using tabs down the side already
[20:55] <toad_> next question: what to do when we need to tell the user something?
[20:55] <Dieppe> true ^^
[20:55] <Dieppe> you mean the alerts ?
[20:55] <toad_> arguably the security levels are a special case, we could make them color coded and part of the UI ...
[20:55] <toad_> yeah
[20:55] <Dieppe> I don't know yet ^^
[20:55] <Dieppe> I'm currently working on that
[20:56] <toad_> on which?
[20:56] <Dieppe> for the bookmarks : we don't need alerts
[20:56] <toad_> hmmm?
[20:56] <Dieppe> see the new version of the browse freenet page
[20:57] <Dieppe> we can have Updated bookmark in top of the bookmark
[20:57] <Dieppe> and remove them when the user click on them
[20:57] <Dieppe> or with a remove button...
[20:57] <toad_> okay ... and if there are multiple categories within updated, we show the categories
[20:57] * mikusr (n=mikusrak@) has left #freenet
[20:57] <toad_> yeah we can use a redirect link
[20:57] <toad_> or just an X somewhere
[20:58] <toad_> My Bookmarks should include all the bookmarks, categorised, whether or not they've been updated
[20:58] <Dieppe> yep
[20:58] <toad_> so we don't need messages for bookmark updates
[20:58] <toad_> cool
[20:59] * toad_ wonders if we need to explain that browsing is anonymous but talking to friends is only encrypted
[20:59] <Dieppe> we should have a link to add new bookmark also : maybe on the right of My Bookmark, and on the right of each category title ?
[20:59] <toad_> I suppose that will be obvious when you click on Add a new friend, and it tells you to find a real life friend and give him this file ...
[21:00] <toad_> Dieppe: that's logical
[21:00] <Dieppe> k
[21:00] <toad_> could you show the tabs on the Chat picture?
[21:00] <toad_> we can make them not show unless there's more than one chat going on of course
[21:00] <Dieppe> I already did, didn't I ?
[21:01] <toad_> you show the list of people involved in the conversation at the top
[21:01] <Dieppe> that's the tabs...
[21:01] <toad_> IMHO we can implement chat with or without javascript, if it's without there will be some refreshing latency
[21:01] <toad_> ah ok
[21:01] <toad_> so if you invite a friend to a chat, the name of the chat will change?
[21:01] <Dieppe> ok, well I'll change that then
[21:01] <toad_> you should make it obvious who is in a chat
[21:02] <Dieppe> yep
[21:02] <toad_> so if you have 2 people in a chat, the name *may* change for the tabs, and you need to clearly indicate who's there
[21:03] * greycat (i=rfc1413@) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[21:03] <Dieppe> ok
[21:03] <toad_> it's better for chat to go downwards, cos that's how people read ... which means we need to fix the number of lines, or use javascript to automatically scroll to the end on an update...?
[21:03] <Dieppe> dunno
[21:04] <Dieppe> which one is the best ?
[21:04] <Dieppe> maybe javascript
[21:04] <toad_> yeah...
[21:04] <toad_> well it needs to work in console mode for 1) accessibility, and 2) headless
[21:05] <toad_> and up until now we've turned off javascript in the browser profile we install ...
[21:05] <toad_> so there's an argument to keep that ...
[21:05] <toad_> i
[21:05] <toad_> Dieppe: the size of a file isn't really an advanced detail, should it be visible on the downloads page?
[21:06] <toad_> also we may in some cases want to show the total queued size and the quota for the current memory usage
[21:07] <toad_> although if we're nowhere near it we should let that go
[21:07] <toad_> mostly we'll be nowhere near it
[21:07] <toad_> but with the db4o branch, we need 3.7MB per 10G, and with the current code, we need *a lot more than that*
[21:07] <toad_> not so easy to quantify though
[21:08] <Dieppe> yeah, we should display those information
[21:08] <toad_> Dieppe: what do you think of making the security status, and maybe the connectivity status, part of the UI?
[21:08] <toad_> it could be a small status bar just under the menu?
[21:08] <toad_> if we don't, we need to find somewhere to put it
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[21:09] <toad_> (or maybe at the right end of the menu, for a large enough browser window?)
[21:09] * toad_ certainly agrees that simplicity is a good thing ...
[21:09] <Dieppe> yeah, we could do like google : it shows your status on top right, it's quite discrete
[21:10] <toad_> yeah that's good
[21:10] <toad_> well we basically have 4 items to display, all of which could be color coded with a single word, or something similar
[21:10] * sanity_ is all for emulating existing successful UIs when possible
[21:10] <toad_> network security, friends security, physical security, connectivity status
[21:10] <Dieppe> toad_: feel free to modify the wiki page btw
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[21:11] * batosai still not understand where we put the line between our 'official identity (node name or so) and our 'anonymous identity' (WoT)...
[21:11] <batosai> Are they the same in your idea ?
[21:11] <toad_> batosai: it's up to the user
[21:11] <toad_> batosai: generally a user will have one node identity (traceable, IP address, real name, visible to friends)
[21:11] <toad_> and one or more untraceable identities
[21:12] <toad_> in the future tunneling may require the user to declare which untraceable identity he is using in order to minimise information leakage
[21:12] <sanity_> hey, what is the URL of Dieppe's mock-up again?
[21:12] <toad_> in which case that might also have to be part of the UI
[21:12] <toad_> http://doc-fr.freenetproject.org/Fproxy_mockup
[21:12] <toad_> fortunately we don't need to worry about that until 0.9
[21:13] <toad_> but it might make sense to have a common identity between FMS, filesharing, maybe freemail etc
[21:13] <toad_> and have a dropdown on each page or something
[21:13] <sanity_> I think we should drop activelinks - they look awful
[21:13] <batosai> well integrating the choice of default identity to the UI is a good idea
[21:13] <toad_> sanity_: they do if they're blocks of blue!
[21:13] <sanity_> toad_: no, they look awful on current fproxy
[21:13] <toad_> hmmm
[21:14] <toad_> Dieppe: any opinions?
[21:14] <batosai> sanity_: agreed that they will look even more awfull in a slick, eye-candy UI
[21:14] <sanity_> batosai: exactly
[21:14] <Dieppe> toad_: about ?
[21:15] * toad_ wonders if we might even make it part of the UI, like with logged-in-on-google: have maybe a white title with your non-anonymous nick on pages where you're doing non-anonymous operations, and have a black title with your anonymous nick on pages where you're doing anonymous operations?
[21:15] <Dieppe> new chat picture uploaded btw
[21:15] <toad_> Dieppe: activelinks being ugly
[21:15] <Dieppe> ah
[21:15] <Dieppe> well, yeah, they often are...
[21:16] <Dieppe> but I'm not sure if it's sufficient to get rid of them...
[21:16] <toad_> Dieppe: I still don't see who the conversation is between
[21:16] <Dieppe> :/
[21:16] <sanity_> toad_: you think users will grok that? (re: white title...)
[21:16] <toad_> sanity_: certainly it would make the page load quicker if we got rid of them
[21:16] <toad_> sanity_: or pre-cached them
[21:16] <toad_> sanity_: they will if we make it obvious
[21:16] <sanity_> toad_: they just look terrible
[21:17] * toad_ would like a second opinion on that
[21:17] <sanity_> if there is still a functional reason for them, then we should just display a standard image - perhaps a green versus a red circle or something, that fits in with the appearance
[21:17] <Dieppe> toad_: you sure you saw the last version of the chat page (with the back in orange (which is not very pretty, but well...))
[21:17] <Dieppe> ?
[21:17] <toad_> thumbnails for people etc are fairly widespread
[21:17] <sanity_> toad_: batosai gave one
[21:17] <zerwas> hm... i'm inserting a big file into freenet. i have uploaded 709 MiB through this connection so far. but in Freent, only 50 MiB are inserted yet. Is this normal?
[21:17] <sanity_> toad_: these aren't photos
[21:18] <toad_> Dieppe: hmm, I see it
[21:18] <toad_> I agree the orange is ugly :)
[21:18] <sanity_> toad_: seriously, they make current fproxy look really messy - and IMHO they confuse people too
[21:18] <batosai> Dieppe, you should switch the two collors (1- orange background is agressive, 2- you use blue for selected items elsewhere)
[21:18] <Dieppe> batosai: will try that :)
[21:18] <toad_> Dieppe: apart from that, what does it look like if there's a 3 way conversation?
[21:18] <toad_> the current picture is ambiguous
[21:18] <toad_> well no it's not ambiguous
[21:18] <sanity_> Dieppe: the reflection on the text is a little cliched these days
[21:18] <toad_> but I'd like to see what it would look like with a 3-way convo
[21:19] <sanity_> Dieppe: "2004 called, they want their Web 2.0 logo back" ;-)
[21:19] <toad_> to avoid saying things you don't want to say it is vital to see who's in and who's out
[21:19] <toad_> hehe
[21:20] <Dieppe> sanity_: yeah, but I dunno how to make the other kind of reflections ^^"
[21:21] <toad_> sanity_: is it useful to differentiate between operations involving friends (e.g. chat), which are not anonymous but are encrypted, and operations involving freenet identities (which might also include chat), which is anonymous?
[21:21] <toad_> maybe it's obvious in any case?
[21:21] <toad_> "other kind of reflections" ??
[21:22] <toad_> Dieppe: is the "Show my bookmarks" box unnecessary complexity?
[21:22] <sanity_> toad_: I think ht may be difficult to articulate that
[21:22] * zerwas_ (n=zerwas@) has joined #freenet
[21:22] <toad_> sanity_: we might have a real-time chat box with pseudonymous identities, and a real-time chat box with traceable friends
[21:22] <toad_> it's important to separate them, no?
[21:23] <toad_> maybe it's just a matter of indicating the pseudonym on the page?
[21:23] <sanity_> toad_: well yes, but I worry that the distinction will be hard to articulate
[21:23] <sanity_> toad_: perhaps two different tabs or something like that
[21:23] <toad_> okay so it's a question of finding concise and clear terminology?
[21:24] <toad_> "Untraceable pseudonym: MadPig" at the top of the chat ... versus "Talking to friends: Me Myself"
[21:25] <toad_> anyway we're not going to have real time chat over freenet in the near future ... although there is an implementation of it ...
[21:25] <toad_> it's not a plugin yet anyway
[21:25] <Dieppe> toad_: well, yeah, maybe we should get rid of the show my bookmarks box
[21:26] <batosai> I really like all these ideas, but they have a prerequisite : tight integration of plugins in the UI
[21:26] * toad_ just brainstorming, don't let me distract you, certainly fight me if what i suggest makes the UI overcomplicated
[21:26] <toad_> batosai: okay .... ?
[21:26] <toad_> batosai: that's planned, if you want to talk about what specifically is needed then go right ahead
[21:26] * batosai is just wondering who, except you, can do it
[21:26] <toad_> saces has done some work on it
[21:27] <batosai> and if you have time to do it
[21:27] <toad_> but really it's not hard
[21:27] <batosai> ok
[21:27] <toad_> we'd have an interface for top level plugins that are alongside Browse Freenet in the main menu
[21:27] <Dieppe> toad_: I'll fight you if I'm disagree with you, but I don't (for now ;p)
[21:27] <Dieppe> s/I'm/I
[21:27] <toad_> another interface for search plugins and/or other stuff that goes on the Browse Freenet page
[21:28] <toad_> Dieppe: what's your view on visually distinguishing the traceable from the untraceable then?
[21:28] <Dieppe> ok, I uploaded a better looking chat page (with one to one conversation, multiple will follow)
[21:28] <Dieppe> hum
[21:28] <Dieppe> I didn't follow the conv about that ^^"
[21:28] * toad_ still thinks Show my bookmarks is superfluous
[21:28] <toad_> it should always show them
[21:29] <Dieppe> yeah
[21:29] <toad_> Dieppe: basically, do we want to indicate which pseudonym we are using for freenet-level operations (e.g. chat)? and how do we make a clear visual distinction between traceable chat with friends and untraceable chat via a pseudonym?
[21:30] <Dieppe> hum, for the traceable and untraceable, we could : say it in the top right corner, with the connection infos, and let the user choose a different theme if he wants to
[21:30] <toad_> well, we might not call it traceable
[21:30] <toad_> how about ENCRYPTED vs ANONYMOUS ?
[21:30] <Dieppe> or non-anonymous vs anonymous ?
[21:31] <toad_> "Encrypted chats with friends: <my name>", "Anonymous chat: <my pseudonym>" ?
[21:31] <Dieppe> encrypted doesn't say it's not anonymous
[21:31] <toad_> "Encrypted chat with friends: <my name>", "Anonymous chat: <my pseudonym>" ?
[21:31] <toad_> well yeah but do we need to say that?
[21:31] <Dieppe> dunno ^^
[21:31] <toad_> I mean when people add friends they'll know that they're adding friends
[21:31] <Dieppe> yeah
[21:31] <toad_> we just need to make it obvious so they don't make mistakes - we don't really need to explain it overmuch
[21:32] <Dieppe> we should have a faq tab too
[21:32] <toad_> yeah including some documentation is a good idea
[21:32] <toad_> in the short term we will have mail, non-real-time chat, maybe filesharing, under a pseudonym
[21:33] <batosai> maybe we could add links to a documentation freesite in the menu ?
[21:33] <batosai> for the faq and doc
[21:33] <toad_> perhaps ... we'd need RSKs, but if we have a very good reason to have them then i can implement them
[21:33] <Luke771> a few-seconds-lag chat would be great
[21:33] <toad_> or another hardcoded revocation mechanism
[21:33] <toad_> Luke771: i believe it already exists
[21:33] <toad_> Luke771: or you mean with friends?
[21:34] <Luke771> no i mean using fms or frost ID's as nicknames
[21:34] <toad_> so tied to the WoT
[21:34] <toad_> yeah
[21:34] <Luke771> it does ecist and it works but it's too featureless to be useful
[21:34] <Luke771> x
[21:34] <toad_> it's feasible, it's been demonstrated, but it's likely to be quite heavy on the network
[21:35] <toad_> you've tried it?
[21:35] <toad_> what is missing?
[21:35] <toad_> apart from a web interface?
[21:35] <Luke771> yeah it would have to be tied to the wot avoid spam/flood -that's the first thing it's missing
[21:35] <Luke771> freechat or whatever it was called
[21:35] <toad_> well the main advantage is you can reuse identities
[21:35] <toad_> but yes on multi-user channels the WoT will help to avoid spam
[21:36]