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[3:00] <alpinestr> Hi can anyone tell me how to add a refrence so i can connect to freenet
[3:03] <TheSeeker> sure: step 1) encourage people you know to use freenet. step 2) give them your reference (seen on the darknet friends page) step 3) get their reference, and add it.
[3:03] <TheSeeker> alternatively: go to your settings and enable opennet.
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[5:56] <Luke771> damn
[5:56] <Luke771> my latest translation has an encoding problem again
[5:57] <Luke771> sorry
[5:57] <Luke771> please revert
[5:58] <Luke771> the werid part is that it dint show any problem as long as it was loaded from the local file, and firefox is set to use unicode, I double checked before starting the translation of the new strings
[5:59] <Luke771> anyhow, there weent many changes since the previous version, I'll re-send it as soon as I figure out this encondiung thing
[5:59] <Luke771> nextgens: please read these lines
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[6:05] <Luke771> wait, donì't revert it yet, my gedit shows it correctly, maybe the problem is in my firefox, I'll ask someone to test it
[6:13] <Luke771> nextgens: OK I had it tested by another user, it is actually an encoding problem, please revert to the next-latest Italian translation (just cancel the latest one) I'm working on the my settings problem and I'll send the new striongs ASAP (couple of days tops)
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[6:33] <Hasbro> What's a freenet?
[6:35] <Hasbro> What is Freenets?
[6:39] <Hasbro> How do I find stuff on freenet?
[6:42] <Luke771> http://freenetproject.org
[6:42] <Luke771> you find the stuff in different ways
[6:42] <Luke771> for instance you use FMS or Frost (Freenet messaging) and use the links published there
[6:43] <Luke771> also, there's a search engine -like plugin called 'librarian' that allows keyword-based search
[6:43] <Luke771> there's a software called Thaw that has indexes to stuff (audio, video, software, etc)
[6:44] <nextgens> Luke771> so I should revert it?
[6:44] <Luke771> there's FreeMule that implements file sharing over freenet, much like eMule, but anonymous
[6:44] <Luke771> nextgens: please do
[6:44] <Luke771> I'm looking for the bad guy (file) right now, I'll send the new version asap
[6:45] <nextgens> done
[6:45] <Luke771> Hasbro: also there's wiki with info at wiki.freenetproject.org
[6:46] <Luke771> thx nextgens
[6:46] <nextgens> has anyone's node updated yet?
[6:46] <Luke771> expect the new version in a couple of days max
[6:46] <nextgens> was it using UoM or the normal process?
[6:46] <Luke771> mine was updating like 20 min. ago
[6:46] <FreenetLogBot> r22340 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[6:46] <nextgens> do you see a line with "SHOULD" in your wrapper.log?
[6:46] <Luke771> looking
[6:47] <Luke771> INFO | jvm 1 | 2008/08/07 11:33:07 | The update process seems to have been stuck for over an hour; let's switch to UoM! SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!
[6:47] <Luke771> lots of these
[6:47] <nextgens> :<
[6:47] <nextgens> okay
[6:47] <Hasbro> I'm looking for some good underage pornography. Would anyone be able to direct my call?
[6:47] <Luke771> bad news?
[6:48] <Hasbro> lolol, kidding.
[6:48] * Hasbro was kicked from #freenet by nextgens
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[6:48] <Hasbro> Me neither
[6:48] <Luke771> well go kid somewhere else, and give my typing back :P
[6:48] <nextgens> Luke771> yeah it's not good news
[6:48] <Luke771> hm, 'shouldn't happen' doenst sound like good news
[6:48] <Hasbro> I'm confused on how to search for things
[6:48] <nextgens> Luke771> has it found the freenet-ext #21 yet?
[6:49] <Hasbro> I see categories but nothing specific, no search or anyting.
[6:49] <nextgens> there is a plugin called XMLLibrarian
[6:50] <Luke771> Hasbro: if you don't like freenet loading plufgins off the website (I know I don't like that) you can download it and run it locally
[6:50] <Hasbro> How do I do that?
[6:50] <nextgens> Luke771> huh?
[6:50] <nextgens> Luke771> it uses a ssl-secured link!
[6:50] <Luke771> nextgens: still using freenet-ext #20, Iì'm searching the log to see if has at least found #21
[6:50] <nextgens> way better that what you would do
[6:50] <Hasbro> Nextgens
[6:50] <Hasbro> Link to plugin please
[6:50] <Hasbro> =D
[6:50] <nextgens> and it checks both the hash and the pubkey of the server
[6:51] <Luke771> still it tells my ISP (or my DNS) that I connect to freenet. Not a real problem in my specific case as I'm not anonymous anyway
[6:51] <Luke771> does it use wget?
[6:51] <Luke771> one could configure wget to use tor...
[6:52] <Hasbro> I'm sure you're not the only user with your isp using freenet
[6:52] <Hasbro> =P
[6:52] <Luke771> i'm sure I don't use my fascist ISP's DNS
[6:52] <Luke771> it blocks stuff as soon as PM Silvio Mussolini tells it to
[6:52] <Luke771> anyhow
[6:52] <Luke771> back to the logs
[6:52] <Hasbro> Where can I get this search thing from?
[6:53] <Luke771> go to plugins page in fproxy and load Librarian, then click 'visit'
[6:53] <Hasbro> fproxy?
[6:53] <Luke771> http://127.0.0.1:8888
[6:53] * Luke771 suspects someone's trolling
[6:53] <Hasbro> oh okay got it in Plugins
[6:54] <Luke771> nextgens: got INFO | jvm 3 | 2008/09/02 03:26:52 | freenet.jar built with freenet-ext.jar Build #21 r21993
[6:55] <Luke771> but fproxy still says that it's using #20
[6:55] <Luke771> now it says that it's using #20 but #21 is recommended
[6:55] <Luke771> I)'ll leave it alone to see if it gets it
[6:56] <Luke771> INFO | jvm 3 | 2008/09/02 03:33:39 | Found freenet-ext.jar update edition 21
[6:56] <Luke771> that's the last log line
[6:56] <Luke771> so I guess it's OK
[6:56] <nextgens> well, will see if it updates
[6:57] <Luke771> that line is from at least 3 hours ago
[6:57] <Luke771> 5 hours if the log uses GMT
[6:57] <Luke771> (my time= GMT +2, in summer)
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[6:58] <Luke771> no, the other way around, but anyways 5 or 3 hours
[6:59] <Luke771> got some stuff to do now, I' have a postit reminding me of the l10n thing, I'll be back on it as soon as I can, cya later
[7:00] <Hasbro> You should rename freenet to slownet ;)
[7:00] <Hasbro> be back later
[7:00] <Hasbro> will keep my node up for a while
[7:00] <Hasbro> =D
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[7:31] <FreenetLogBot> r22341 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[10:40] <Anarhist> hi, so strangers are now also doing friend-of-friend routing?
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[11:24] <nextgens> Anarhist> that has always been the plan
[11:24] <Anarhist> ok
[11:24] <Anarhist> q;-/
[11:24] <Anarhist> i hope you people know what you are doing then
[11:29] <nextgens> Anarhist> are you still working on your wiki-over-freenet project?
[11:29] <nextgens> that would be really awesome if it worked :)
[11:31] <Anarhist> unfortunately tidal breaking isn't fast enough, i need about 70 hours in a day
[11:31] <Anarhist> i'm working on 10000 projects right now
[11:31] <Anarhist> how stable is current freenet plug-in infrastructure?
[11:33] <nextgens> it's still evolving
[11:33] <FreenetLogBot> r22342 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[11:33] <nextgens> but well, it's more stable than it was
[11:34] <Anarhist> ok, i will put freekiwiki on my mental diary
[11:34] <Anarhist> last i checked it completely failed to work
[11:35] <Anarhist> some incopatible change in freenet
[11:36] <saces> Anarhist: show me a link to trunk/head, i can have a look at it (and maybe fix it to current)
[11:37] <Anarhist> from what i remember last i worked on it was on the machine without internet access
[11:37] <Anarhist> so latest changes aren't committed
[11:38] <Anarhist> http://sourceforge.net/svn/?group_id=159938
[11:39] <Anarhist> but i suggest you wait a bit, i'll drag that laptop to the uni with me and commit that which i have
[12:09] <FreenetLogBot> r22343 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[12:09] <toad_> Anarhist: saces: if you do do more work on freekiwiki, it'd be great to adopt it as an official plugin...
[12:10] <toad_> i'd be willing to take on code review if it's not humongous
[12:10] <toad_> if you need a database you can use db4o
[12:10] <toad_> (7.2, 1.5 version)
[12:10] <toad_> bbiab
[12:14] <saces> replace the mysql by db4o would be cool -> closer to "one click install" ;)
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[12:29] <FreenetLogBot> r22344 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[12:29] <FreenetLogBot> r22345 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[12:32] <FreenetLogBot> r22346 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[13:27] <zerwas> How long does it normally take for Freenet to download an update of itself?
[13:34] <toad_> dunno
[13:35] <toad_> after 3 hours it switches to Update Over Mandatory mode
[13:35] <toad_> then it should be quick
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[13:49] * toad_ wonders what proportion of the slowness in bootstrapping is caused by us including noderefs for nodes that won't connect in the seednodes file...
[13:50] <toad_> maybe we should have an internal and an external seednodes file, nodes that haven't been up for 48 hours don't get included in the external version
[13:52] <toad_> clearly nodes not connecting causes some delay...
[13:58] <kork> toad_: couldn't the freenet project rent some cheap-*ss dedicated servers to run a few seednodes?
[14:02] <toad_> well we have 10 or so already
[14:02] <kork> oh...
[14:03] <toad_> run by volunteers of course
[14:03] <kork> I only knew about emo^Hu
[14:03] <toad_> well we have 23... but sadly they don't all work
[14:03] <toad_> 8-12 of them work on a typical day
[14:03] <kork> 2 of them are mine... I usually try to fix them pretty quickly if they die
[14:04] <toad_> bootstrapping did work well around the 0.7.0 release, which suggests there may be a serious problem
[14:05] <toad_> something that changed since then
[14:11] * ahuxley (n=ahuxley@) Quit ()
[14:11] <toad_> kork: running a seednode on emu requires running a node on emu, we don't do that atm, partly for bandwidth and cpu reasons
[14:12] <toad_> my node is a seednode otoh
[14:17] <kork> toad_: yeah well that's why I suggested renting a few servers dedicated to that task, actually owned by the freenet project, so at least a few seed nodes would not run by volunteers, who I think tend to be more or less unreliable
[14:18] <toad_> would be expensive
[14:18] <toad_> VMs have very limited CPU; dedicated servers are expensive
[14:18] <toad_> and we'd have to run actual nodes
[14:19] <toad_> to have useful seeding
[14:20] <kork> I found a pentium 3 733/256M/10G/500G of bandwidth (yeah, right) for 14 euros/month =)
[14:21] * toad_ would imagine there is a catch
[14:21] <toad_> like it's really a VM
[14:21] <kork> it's not
[14:22] <kork> I had one of those until it became too slow for my needs
[14:22] <kork> so I got a faster one at OVH in france
[14:38] <zerwas> toad_, thx for the info. it took a few hours with the message that the node is getting updated but now it is done.
[14:39] <toad_> it really shouldn't take anywhere near that long... i'm trying to reproduce the problem so i can debug it ...
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[14:48] <pisi_> Hi. I'm interested in programmatically accessing freenet, via some kind of (Java?) API. Where to start?
[14:49] <toad_> there are a number of libraries
[14:49] <pisi_> I understand that freenet provides an anonymous, distributed dictionary? I found PyFreenet from the freenet site index but that did not lead to downloadable stuff.
[14:49] <toad_> or you can use FCP directly
[14:49] <Anarhist> toad_, saces, i won't use db4o because mediawiki doesn't use that
[14:50] <Anarhist> my main intent is to have people who already have a mediawiki installation to be able to have freekiwiki
[14:50] <toad_> Anarhist: well then very few people will be able to use it
[14:50] <toad_> Anarhist: is that the intention?
[14:50] <pisi_> toad_: http://wiki.freenetproject.org/pyfcp apparenty
[14:50] <toad_> pisi_: there are other libraries
[14:50] <Anarhist> toad_, only the person who actually publishes the wiki needs to have mysql db
[14:51] <toad_> they are not particularly well documented, but have a look around on the SVN repository
[14:51] <pisi_> thanks for the pointers, this should keep me busy for a while.
[14:51] <toad_> Anarhist: so it's a read-only medium?
[14:51] <Anarhist> toad_, no
[14:51] <Anarhist> but clients only need the plug-in
[14:51] <Anarhist> they don't touch the database at all
[14:51] <toad_> ok
[14:51] <Anarhist> they don't even see any database
[14:52] <pisi_> what is the biggest known object on freenet that is acessible in a reasonable time? any iso cd images for example?
[14:52] <toad_> yes we have ISOs
[14:53] <toad_> CD ISOs and even a few DVD ISOs
[14:53] <toad_> it takes a while to fetch them, depending on how old/popular they are
[14:54] <pisi_> I've tried a few times (my node has been running for a few days now) to find something up to date and interesting information but have not found yet any..
[14:57] <toad_> pisi_: meaning?
[14:57] <toad_> what are you looking for?
[14:57] <pisi_> toad_: I have not found any iso images or anything.
[14:57] <toad_> ah
[14:57] <FreenetLogBot> r22347 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[14:58] <toad_> what parts of freenet have you used?
[14:58] <toad_> just fproxy?
[14:59] <pisi_> toad_: I've installed the macosx package and clicked around :8888
[14:59] <pisi_> toad_: which apparently counts as fproxy
[14:59] <toad_> 8888 is fproxy yes
[15:00] <toad_> there's a good deal more to freenet than fproxy, but most people don't find most of it before they give up, because 1) we don't bundle it, and 2) it's either hard to use or GUI apps that can't be loaded from fproxy, or ...
[15:00] <toad_> we're trying to figure out what to do about it :(
[15:00] <toad_> anyway, FMS and Thaw are the main ones
[15:01] <pisi_> I'm comfortable with non-gui stuff if there is some quick highlevel intro and some basic examples or 'teasers' available
[15:02] <toad_> FMS is a messaging system like usenet, Thaw is a filesharing system with searchable interlinked indexes
[15:05] <pisi_> I'll start fresh with a non-webstart freenet installation which hopefully makes me feel comfortable with the system.
[15:05] <toad_> you can find both of them on the FAFS site
[15:06] <toad_> well either way we recommend you use the GUI installer
[15:06] <toad_> you can use the tarball if you want to
[15:08] <pisi_> a different question: as I work with hardware tokens a lot (a dev @opensc-project.org camp) is there a way to bind freenet related cryptographic identity to a hardware token for added privacy?
[15:08] <FreenetLogBot> r22348 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[15:08] <toad_> not at the moment
[15:08] <toad_> but feel free to look into it
[15:09] <toad_> it would be interesting to have the datastore and download queue encrypted using a hardware-based key
[15:10] <pisi_> most existing devs use linux/bsd I assume?
[15:10] <toad_> yeah
[15:10] <toad_> one or two windows from time to time
[15:10] <toad_> no vista at all afaik
[15:11] <toad_> windows devs are useful though
[15:11] <toad_> we do have some platform issues especially with ther installer
[15:11] <pisi_> basically it would be nice to have one cd iso to boot the system from, then plug two tokens: one smartcard and one flash drive with encrypted data.
[15:11] <toad_> right
[15:11] <toad_> smartcard having the advantage of the contained key being easily destroyable
[15:12] <toad_> which would then make the flash data useless
[15:12] <pisi_> I'm on mac/linux. But this looks like an interesting bridge project.
[15:12] <toad_> cool
[15:13] <toad_> the iso could of course be on the flash media
[15:13] <toad_> then you only have to carry two items
[15:13] <toad_> otoh if you want to have a big store you'll have to allocate it from local disk
[15:13] <pisi_> I like to writeprotectedness of cdroms
[15:14] <pisi_> to->the
[15:14] <toad_> true ... well there are various options...
[15:14] <toad_> what were you interested in the API for?
[15:14] <toad_> you got any client app project ideas?
[15:14] <pisi_> the fproxy was not interesting at all and did not fit in my mind so I thought I'd look at the API and thing what I could do interesting with it.
[15:15] <toad_> well at the moment we have fproxy (with primitive searching, has major issues), Thaw (filesharing) and FMS (usenet-style chat)
[15:15] <toad_> and a couple of clients (jsite, thingamablog, echo) for inserting content for fproxy
[15:15] <pisi_> I'll look at Thaw and FMS later tonight. Thanks for hints.
[15:15] <toad_> cool
[15:15] <pisi_> homedrive now
[15:15] <toad_> let me know if you need any input
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[15:35] <FreenetLogBot> r22351 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[15:57] <saces> is this spelled right? FredPluginUpdatedable
[15:59] <toad_> Updateable surely
[15:59] <toad_> only one d
[15:59] <toad_> or maybe Updatable
[15:59] <toad_> hmmm google shows 689k for updateable and 722k for updatable
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[16:01] <toad_> updatable is probably better
[16:01] <toad_> thefreedictionary.com shows updatable but not updateable
[16:07] <saces> its called 'FredPluginUoF' now (updatedable over freenet, to clear out what it realy is)
[16:07] <toad_> ok
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[16:33] <FreenetLogBot> r22353 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[16:47] <toad_> re
[16:47] <toad_> Caco_Patane: hey
[16:47] <toad_> Caco_Patane: wb
[16:47] <toad_> Caco_Patane: had any time to work on the spanish translation lately?
[16:48] <toad_> okay, what can i do about bootstrapping apart from what i've already done?
[16:49] <toad_> in 1 week the tester will start telling me which nodes haven't connected in a week, and i'll contact their owners and get rid of them from the official seednodes file
[16:49] <toad_> i've asked for more seednodes
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[16:56] <toad_> okay, there's one more thing i can do, done now
[17:00] <FreenetLogBot> r22354 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[17:00] <FreenetLogBot> r22355 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[17:46] <FreenetLogBot> r22356 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
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[19:09] <toad_> lets talk about deploying the new paranoia settings
[19:09] <toad_> we have 3 basic questions - network trust (is the NSA out to get you), peers trust (is the Gestapo out to get you), and datastore seizure (are the cops about to bust down your door and take your computer away)
[19:10] <toad_> given the longish explanations we probably should make this two or three separate pages
[19:10] <toad_> on the post-install wizard
[19:10] <toad_> now, once we have installed, we want it to still be changeable
[19:11] <toad_> probably we want a Paranoia Level tab on the config page?
[19:11] <toad_> so Paranoia Level, then Basic Settings, then Advanced Settings ?
[19:13] <toad_> and the current "Insecure Mode Enabled" warning alert could be changed to something based on the paranoia level
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[19:28] <Spets> Reminds me of GTA
[19:30] <Spets> It would be fitting if the highest level was called "paranoia panorama" displaying this picture
[19:30] <Spets> http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/50/Munch_The_Scream_lithography.png
[19:31] <nextgens> I would prefer if we were speaking in terms of threat level
[19:32] <nextgens> paranoia doesn't sound right; our most valuable users are those for who the threat is real
[19:33] <Spets> I guess you are right, albeit i dont consider myself a less valueable user
[19:34] <nextgens> :)
[19:34] <Spets> Is there any collaboration with the ubuntu hardened project? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-hardened
[19:34] <nextgens> not that I'm aware of
[19:37] <Spets> How about just calling it 1984
[19:39] <Spets> The freenet project enters into the realms of philosophical freedom and security, but technically its the same
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[22:09] <tessier_> So, anyone downloading ISO's from freenet yet? :)
[22:11] <zerwas> tessier_: 700 MByte files, yes
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[22:15] <tessier_> zerwas: Nice. How long does it take?
[22:15] <zerwas> depends (i don't know on what). but at least 5 hours or so
[22:16] <zerwas> what was strange that it got to 49% in unbelievable speed (using 16MBit line)
[22:16] <toad_> 5 hours? woah
[22:16] <toad_> it's always been days when i've heard about it before
[22:16] <zerwas> toad_: fast? or slow?
[22:17] <toad_> my downloads haven't completed yet, but then, they're unpopular and mostly rather old testing stuff
[22:17] <zerwas> yep i couldn't believe it too. But i'm using opennet due to the fact of missing friends
[22:17] <zerwas> toad_: i'm curious: Do the freenet devs themself use opennet too?
[22:19] <toad_> i have a hybrid node yes
[22:19] <zerwas> Freenet needs more users :-(
[22:19] * nextgens doesn't
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[22:25] <tessier_> 5 hours isn't too bad for a 700M iso
[22:26] * tessier_ is still hoping that freenet will hit upon the magic p2p formula that makes freenet even faster than a normal direct download
[22:26] <tessier_> Of course, I've been hoping that for 8 years so...
[22:26] <tessier_> My freenet node may still be running but way out of date..
[22:26] * tessier_ checks
[22:28] <nextgens> how could it be faster than a direct connection?
[22:28] <tessier_> nextgens: In the same way that bittorrent is usually faster.
[22:28] <nextgens> well bittorent isn't any faster
[22:29] <nextgens> on a one vs one model at least
[22:29] <tessier_> nextgens: Downloading, say, the latest Fedora ISO is not faster with bittorrent than downloading it via http from downloads.fedora.org?
[22:30] <tessier_> Wow, fred is still running. Stability has improved greatly.
[22:30] <nextgens> sure if you have thousands of seeders it's faster that way
[22:30] <tessier_> And if you have a popular file with blocks spread across freenet nodes all over the world freenet should be able to get the same performance.
[22:31] <Spets> But it cant be faster than inbound speed
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[22:31] <Spets> nonetheless
[22:31] <tessier_> Spets: Correct.
[22:31] <tessier_> But if I could max out my inbound speed using freenet like I can with bittorrent that would really be a breakthrough.
[22:31] <nextgens> tessier_> it's just not possible
[22:31] <tessier_> nextgens: Why not? Have you read the original freenet paper?
[22:32] <nextgens> for the precise reason that bittorent peers which are part of the same cloud are interrested in the same data
[22:32] <nextgens> whereas freenet nodes aren't
[22:32] <tessier_> freenet nodes are interested in whatever part of the keyspace their node has specialized in.
[22:32] <tessier_> Or that's how it was originally supposed to be.
[22:32] <nextgens> tessier_> I would be a really bad dev if I hadn't :)
[22:32] <tessier_> Maybe that has changed. If so, I suppose all is lost.
[22:32] <tessier_> nextgens: You never know.
[22:33] <pmpp> the swarm effect can be implemented on darknet , not on opennet imho
[22:34] <pmpp> so i agree with nextgens
[22:34] <tessier_> pmpp: nextgens didn't say it would work on darknet.
[22:34] <nextgens> tessier_> files are split into chunks and each chunk is sent to a different area of the keyspace; As we use a cryptographically secure hash function (sha256) to find out what the location is we have the proof that it's homogeneous over the keyspace
[22:34] <tessier_> nextgens: Right...I understand that.
[22:34] <nextgens> it wouldn't work either on darknet
[22:35] <tessier_> nextgens: That's how a kademlia style network works in general. A distributed hash table.
[22:35] <nextgens> yeah
[22:35] <nextgens> but swarms are built around people interrested in the same content
[22:35] <nextgens> that's not something we do on freenet
[22:35] <tessier_> I have never used the word swarm in associated with freenet.
[22:35] <tessier_> If the data is popular it will be replicated widely.
[22:36] <nextgens> bittorent can use things like what they call "p4p"
[22:36] <tessier_> And should download quickly from whatever machines (hopefully many) contain those blocks which we find via routing by the key.
[22:36] <nextgens> where you chose your peers in function of their "distance" network-wise
[22:36] <tessier_> I know you know all this...I'm just trying to deduce the current state of freenet.
[22:36] <nextgens> on freenet the path will *always* be longer
[22:37] <tessier_> Right. But wouldn't the distribution of popular data increase the number of "seeds"?
[22:37] <nextgens> of course it would
[22:37] <nextgens> but those seeds wouldn't be choosen depending on their network distance
[22:37] * tessier_ updates his fred
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[22:38] <nextgens> contrary to what's doable on bittorent
[22:38] <nextgens> hence it will always be slower :)
[22:38] <nextgens> by design
[22:38] <nextgens> slower but hopefully more scallable
[22:38] <nextgens> the main problem right now is that people can affort hosting "big" trackers
[22:39] <nextgens> and that's unlikely to change
[22:39] <nextgens> hence freenet is destined to fail as a content distribution system
[22:39] <nextgens> *afford
[22:45] <tessier_> nextgens: Until the RIAA shuts down all of the big trackers. Maybe they won't succeed internationally. But even the Pirate Bay guys are putting up with a lot of hassle.
[22:45] <FreenetLogBot> r22362 (1160) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[22:46] <toad_> no
[22:46] <toad_> the fundamental problem with freenet in terms of speed is simply that we have to route the returning data via many nodes
[22:46] <toad_> it goes from node 1 to node 2 to node 3 etc
[22:46] <toad_> whereas on a classic non-telescoping DHT, or on bittorrent, it's a direct connection to the data source
[22:47] <toad_> however, imho for semi-popular stuff we could probably achieve similar or better reliability and speed
[22:47] <toad_> we'll see anyway, there are changes afoot that should significantly improve freenet's performance
[22:48] <tessier_> toad_: Er...similar or better reliability and speed then bittorrent?
[22:48] <tessier_> than
[22:48] <toad_> tessier_: i said for semi-popular stuff
[22:48] <toad_> tessier_: there's plenty of bittorrent trackers that have no seeders
[22:48] <tessier_> But not really popular stuff or not very unpopular stuff?
[22:48] <toad_> and thus the files can't be fetched
[22:48] <tessier_> Right
[22:49] <toad_> clearly we're not going to be able to max out massively asymmetric DSL lines with 20 peers also on massively asymmetric DSL lines
[22:49] <toad_> but there is room for massive improvement
[22:49] <toad_> brb
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