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[7:04] <funbun> hello
[7:05] <funbun> i'd like to know if there's a static build of fms somewhere, since I can't get to build libpoco in my system
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[8:29] <Luke771> look at that cloak!
[8:29] <Luke771> ha
[8:29] <Luke771> hi btw
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[11:01] <devurandom> Hello.
[11:11] <devurandom> I just installed Freenet and then read about the infamous childporn issue. I am in the probably common dilemma of assisting people supressed by their government and also those I'd like to see jailed. (I know it is the same kind of supression to many...) I've read that there are censorship patches, but could not find them. Hints? I also see the necessity of not knowing what I spread. Can someone give an advise here? Ratios disgusting vs.
[11:11] <devurandom> informative, whether it is possible for someone to figure out what I route through the net, how long the on-disk encryption will hold, etc?
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[11:19] <devurandom> Does storing the freenet data on an i.e. truecrypt volume bring significant additional security?
[11:23] <caytchen> 'how long the on-disk encryption will hold'?
[11:23] <caytchen> it will hold forever
[11:24] <caytchen> the data may get cached in your node but you won't ever be able to decrypt it without any extra information
[11:24] <devurandom> Doubt that, since iirc no encryption is not decryptable even with brute force.
[11:24] <devurandom> It is just a matter of how long it will take.
[11:24] <caytchen> it's binary data.
[11:24] <caytchen> so first off you'll probably not notice even if you got it decrypted and second it will take you centuries.
[11:26] <devurandom> And does it make sense to add an additional layer of encryption?
[11:27] <caytchen> it won't help freenet
[11:27] <Smar> another is that cached data on your node may not be complete, afaik
[11:28] <caytchen> of course it's not complete, just pieces
[11:28] <devurandom> No, but maybe me if someone discovers he got a piece of porn from my node...
[11:28] <Smar> devurandom: if it is piece, it can’t be decrypted
[11:28] <Smar> like, take half of the byte off. what it is after it?
[11:28] <devurandom> So the software takes care I never get a whole document?
[11:29] <caytchen> no, but it's unlikely you'll ever get the complete document unless it's high-traffic
[11:29] <devurandom> I assume that makes it a simple moral decision, if it is technically impossible to get caught...
[11:29] <caytchen> you can''t tell what pieces of your cache belong to the document
[11:30] <Smar> it’s not impossible.
[11:30] <devurandom> Doesnt the software have to figure it out to make any use of the cache?
[11:30] <Smar> figure what?
[11:30] <devurandom> Since: How shall I extract a piece out of the cache if I dont know where I'll find it.
[11:31] <caytchen> devurandom, it can identifiy the specific piece that it is being asked for, but it can't make the connection to a specific file
[11:31] <Smar> you don’t get files with its name but using ”keys”
[11:32] <devurandom> So if I get a request I cannot reverse the key/hash and figure out what I was asked for?
[11:33] <devurandom> I.e. if I have seen the hash before, etc.
[11:33] <Smar> I can’t say sure, but no
[11:34] <caytchen> even if you could, what does that information help?
[11:34] <devurandom> Does the data spread globally? Or is it more likely to cache georaphically near data (data which origins from my neighbourhood.)
[11:34] <caytchen> a big part of freenet is routing of requests / etc.
[11:34] <caytchen> so, if some node asks you for piece #1, you can't know if its also the node that needs the piece or is just routing
[11:35] <devurandom> Well for the matter of pornography it would be enough to know what that piece actually is. To build a "blacklist" of keys or whatever.
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[11:43] <toad_> yes, it makes sense to use truecrypt as well
[11:43] <toad_> imho
[11:43] <toad_> it's not technically impossible to get caught - but for just running a node you shouldn't be committing any crime as far as we know
[11:44] <toad_> in most countries
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[11:44] <toad_> with regards to censorship/blocking of child porn, that is very problematic, just as it is for the internet at large
[11:45] <toad_> the main difficulty is you'd need somebody to construct such a blacklist
[11:45] <toad_> and you'd need to either keep the list secret, or obfuscate it (by not showing keys) ... you can't do the former, the latter means you have to ultimately trust the censor, because you can't do spot checks
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[11:47] <toad_> so blocking child porn from freenet is extremely problematic, unless you can get the Internet Watch Foundation to provide you with a blacklist ... but even then, you have to trust that they won't abuse this power, that the courts, politicans, corps etc won't order/bribe them to abuse it, etc; it rather defeats the object of freenet
[11:47] <toad_> devurandom: make sense?
[11:48] <toad_> devurandom: legally it's similar to running an ISP with a caching transparent proxy - you are bound to have some child porn pass through your system, but that doesn't mean you're legally in posession of it
[11:48] <toad_> of course it does mean you have to co-operate with wiretaps etc, in theory; that's never happened to me
[11:48] <toad_> anyway IANAL
[11:49] <toad_> getting individual freenet nodes to do wiretaps is probably going to be way too much work for way too little results; it's more likely that they'd ban anonymous networking outright, although germany has data retention law applying specifically to such things
[11:50] <toad_> (oh and if it had happened to me i'd have to lie about it - even to a high court judge - under UK law :< )
[11:51] <Luke771> the only acceptable solution is to try to talk to the "illegal porn community" (they don't have to actually answer) and make them understand that in order to keep freenet up and working and stay legal as long as possible, it is important that they clearly label their stuff, so people who don't won't to see it won't accidentaly download some
[11:52] <Luke771> implementing the ability to block content is not going to happen. I'm not a developer but I don't think you can make a program understqand the difference between "good" and "bad" censorship (in fact, I'm not sure I understand it myself)
[11:52] <Luke771> anyways, I'll go back to what I was doing before I get started with one of my on-line conferences...
[11:58] <toad_> yeah, labelling is mostly reasonable on Freenet, with two exceptions: 1) you need to know all the acronyms. if a porn site is labelled as SomeWierdAcronymYouDontKnow, it's probably child porn. 2) most indexes don't index child porn, AnotherIndex does, but *it doesn't label it* and has been known to get the categories wrong
[12:00] <toad_> bbl
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[12:01] <devurandom> sry, have been absent.
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[12:05] <devurandom> Yes, toad, it makes sense.
[12:05] <devurandom> Specifically the constructor of that blacklist would have to check the files, and thus would operate illegally...
[12:06] <devurandom> So basically I can just hope that Freenet does not decide to route unwanted material through my node.
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[12:07] <devurandom> Even though geographical distance to countries censoring "wanted" information is rather high, I presume.
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[12:55] <saces> something to read: http://127.0.0.1:8888/freenet:USK%40MYLAnId-ZEyXhDGGbYOa1gOtkZZrFNTXjFl1dibLj9E,Xpu27DoAKKc8b0718E-ZteFrGqCYROe7XBBJI57pB4M,AQACAAE/pyFreenetHg/9/
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[17:32] <toad_> rehi
[17:32] <toad_> anything up?
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[17:43] <toad_> NEVER_CONNECTED : 14
[17:43] <toad_> CONNECTED_SUCCESS : 10
[17:43] <toad_> we need more seednodes folks
[17:43] <toad_> let me know if you have a static ip / dyndns address, and are port forwarded, and have at least 256kbps bandwidth each way
[17:43] <toad_> and run opennet
[17:49] <kork> my older seednode died yesterday due to UPS failure. just brought it back up
[17:49] <toad_> oops
[17:49] <toad_> you have major power problems?
[17:49] <kork> nope
[17:49] <kork> the ups died
[17:50] <toad_> and took down the node even though there was AC
[17:50] <toad_> i see :|
[17:50] <kork> yeah
[17:50] <kork> anyway, it's back up now
[17:50] * toad_ just bought a UPS last month
[17:51] <kork> the box is at the uni, somewhere
[17:51] <kork> I haven't even seen it in real life yet
[17:52] <kork> # Seeding for: 38
[17:52] <kork> whoa
[17:52] <kork> the other one isn't "seeding for"
[17:52] <kork> but I do have seen it seed
[17:53] <toad_> firewall issues?
[17:53] <kork> shouldn't be
[17:53] <toad_> static IP?
[17:53] <kork> yep
[17:54] <kork> 75M 33G ACCEPT udp -- * * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 udp dpt:10000
[17:54] <kork> 83M 41G ACCEPT udp -- * * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 udp spt:10000
[17:54] <kork> it's also creating tons of traffic
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[18:04] <kork> toad_, http://pastebin.ch/401 this is a good thing, right?
[18:05] <kork> # Seeding for: 1
[18:05] <kork> so it's just not used often, or something
[18:05] <toad_> yeah
[18:05] <toad_> hmmm
[18:05] <toad_> maybe it takes a long time to connect to for some reason?
[18:06] <kork> it shouldn't...
[18:06] <kork> it's a pretty fast 100 mbit line
[18:08] <infinity0> toad_: i have a dynamic IP but it only changes every few days
[18:08] <toad_> infinity0: :|
[18:08] <toad_> well you really don't want to have to send me a new ref every few days
[18:08] <toad_> can you get a dyndns address?
[18:08] <kork> won't a dyn... heh
[18:08] <toad_> and keep it up to date automatically?
[18:08] <infinity0> i could, i guess, but what's this for?
[18:08] <toad_> seednodes
[18:08] <toad_> we need more of them
[18:09] <infinity0> seeds for what?
[18:09] <toad_> bootstrapping performance sucks right now, and part of it is that half our seednodes don't connect
[18:09] <infinity0> oh ok
[18:09] <infinity0> i'll send you my ref in oct
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[18:10] <infinity0> i'll be in uni by then
[18:10] <infinity0> i'll have a static IP then
[18:10] <toad_> ok thanks
[18:10] <infinity0> np
[18:10] <infinity0> 100MBps :p
[18:10] <toad_> will you remember or can i have your email address?
[18:10] <infinity0> er, Mbps
[18:10] <infinity0> i'll remember but have it anyway
[18:11] <toad_> obfuscate it, this channel is logged to the web
[18:11] <toad_> ok
[18:11] <Smar> toad_: does seednodes get much more attention?
[18:11] <infinity0> oh i LPMd
[18:11] <toad_> ok
[18:11] <infinity0> PM'd*
[18:12] <toad_> Smar: in theory I'd expect them to be DoSed by various bad guys and blocked by e.g. chinese government
[18:12] <toad_> in practice attacks tend to be on emu
[18:13] <Smar> it’s just that this ip is attached to smar.fi, so somehow I don’t feel like being seednode..
[18:13] <toad_> also it's sort of irreversible since we don't update the seednodes list once a node is installed - that IP will get hits for quite a long time after adding it even if we remove it
[18:13] <toad_> well if you don't then don't :)
[18:13] <Smar> especially now when they are doing all kind of fun sencorship laws here..
[18:13] <toad_> bandwidth isn't usually a big problem
[18:13] <infinity0> hmm so how much bandwidth should i expect a week?
[18:14] <toad_> i dunno
[18:14] <toad_> it depends whether we get slashdotted, how big the network is etc
[18:14] <toad_> there's no data transferred, it's just for bootstrapping new nodes
[18:14] <infinity0> yeah i get that
[18:14] <toad_> so they handshake, they connect, they do an announcement, up to approx 20 or so noderefs come back to them
[18:14] <infinity0> ah ok
[18:14] <toad_> in practice nowhere near that many cos almost all nodes reject the announcement
[18:15] <infinity0> hmm why?
[18:16] <toad_> dunno
[18:16] <toad_> maybe they're happy with their existing peers
[18:16] <kork> toad, if I set the store size to 64M or something, the node shouldn't churn too much content, should it?
[18:17] <kork> because if all it does is seed, I might be able to set one up at work
[18:17] <toad_> kork: i don't follow
[18:17] <toad_> hmmm
[18:17] <kork> toad_: err, I don't want the node to eat too much bandwidth
[18:17] <toad_> well, you probably want a seednode to be a functional participant on the network
[18:17] <kork> oh, ok
[18:18] <toad_> otherwise it's not going to be starting from a good position
[18:18] <kork> I mean, we're an ISP, but traffic still is expensive for us... lol
[18:18] <infinity0> is eg ~100MB per week a good estimate do you think?
[18:19] <toad_> again ...
[18:19] <toad_> kork: lol
[18:19] <toad_> again, it needs to be a functional node in the first place to have good connections
[18:19] <toad_> so we're probably talking tens of gigs per month
[18:19] <kork> I don't care about 500 gig at the uni or where I'm paying for it
[18:19] <kork> but my boss won't like 500 gig wasted for "nothing" :|
[18:19] <toad_> :|
[18:20] <toad_> running freenet at work is always iffy, don't do it if you value your job more than freenet :)
[18:20] <kork> :D
[18:24] <kork> I can't really run freenet at home... my roomie will kick my a** if I lag up his WoW :P
[18:24] <toad_> :(
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[18:25] <toad_> life sucks for freenet ... the answer is to make freenet work with life, not (always) to make life work with freenet
[18:25] <toad_> i.e. to make it not lag WoW
[18:25] <toad_> i don't think we'll have time to make freenet more gaming-friendly before 0.8 :|
[18:25] <kork> it's not strictly a freenet problem
[18:26] <kork> he also kicks me for running bittorrent or whatever uses upstream
[18:26] <toad_> :|
[18:26] <toad_> well if he's a fanatic then yea
[18:26] <toad_> h
[18:26] <toad_> but we need freenet to run co-operate *reasonably* with such things
[18:26] <Smar> well, for me(not doing anything with it) freenet is quite invisible now..
[18:26] <toad_> how much bandwidth does WoW use anyway? EVE will run on a dial-up modem...
[18:27] <Smar> bandwidth totally isn’t problem.
[18:27] <kork> toad_: I have no idea really... he's complaining all the time although I'm not really sure it's my fault
[18:27] <toad_> upstream bandwidth totally IS the problem
[18:27] <Smar> I think it’s just cpu that can’t handle both
[18:27] <toad_> when you use more than X% of your upstream, everything becomes *really* slow
[18:27] <Smar> toad_: wow takes something like 5kB/s
[18:27] <Smar> at most
[18:27] <toad_> high ping times
[18:27] <kork> tbh I don't really know what our upstream is, it's either 256 or 384, which *should* be plenty for wow AND some p2p stuff...
[18:27] <kork> *shrugs*
[18:28] <Smar> general ping time at wow is something like 200-500
[18:28] <toad_> if your upstream is poor in the first place ... it could push it over the usable limit
[18:28] <toad_> well if you have 256, 256 = 32K/sec
[18:28] <toad_> if freenet auto-detects that it'll assign itself to 16K/sec
[18:28] <toad_> WoW then wants 5K/sec
[18:28] <kork> toad_: dunno what's with him, he even complains when my ssh feels 100% nice
[18:28] <kork> guess he's just paranoid or something
[18:29] <Smar> kork: does he has own comp?
[18:29] <toad_> 21K out of 32K might cause some latency issues ... but the worst thing is that freenet *doesn't have accurate output bandwidth limiting*
[18:29] <toad_> freenet as currently written will normally exceed the bandwidth limit for seconds or half seconds
[18:29] <toad_> because we don't throttle packets that aren't carrying data
[18:29] <Smar> (hmh, that sentence is totally wrong...)
[18:29] <toad_> so clearly it's not going to work well with online gaming :(
[18:29] <toad_> we should deal with this before 0.8, but i'm not sure whether we will have time to do so
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[18:30] <toad_> but if a major object of 0.8 is to be low profile, then we really need to deal with it
[18:30] <toad_> objective
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[19:56] <kork> toad_: you still there?
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[21:14] * trulala (i=trulala@) Quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )")
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[21:27] <nextgens> hi
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[21:48] <toad_> hi
[22:35] <Luke771> I got pointed to this page for my tools site
[22:35] <Luke771> USK%40MYLAnId-ZEyXhDGGbYOa1gOtkZZrFNTXjFl1dibLj9E,Xpu27DoAKKc8b0718E-ZteFrGqCYROe7XBBJI57pB4M,AQACAAE/FMSPlugin-trunk/4/
[22:35] <Luke771> now the question is, should I try tpo get noobs to the plugin, or to the usual FMS?
[22:36] <Luke771> I'd say the plugin, it's more freenet-ish, but
[22:36] <Luke771> anyone tried it? (OK I'll do that) have anyone read the source? (etc)
[22:37] <Luke771> should I link to both? (probably, yes)
[22:38] <Luke771> ok, I'm loading the plugin and see how it works
[22:42] <toad_> it's not really done yet
[22:42] <Luke771> it doesnt
[22:42] <Luke771> it refuses to load
[22:43] <Luke771> OK I won't link to it then
[22:43] <Luke771> please tell when it's done so I'll link to it
[22:44] <Luke771> otoh I can link to is but not write an instructions page yet, and mark it as 'work in progress'
[22:52] <toad_> good idea
[22:52] * Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@) Quit ("Invisible Internet Project: http://www.i2p2.de")
[22:52] <Luke771> i havent been reading FMS for a while, I'm sick and tired of all that censor-blabber
[22:53] <Luke771> but otoh I do need to know what happens, what to link etc
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[23:16] <Kedlun> hi
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[23:17] <Kedlun> is frost usable or is it still plagued with spam?
[23:18] <Tommy[D]> last time i did run it, it was still spammed
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[23:19] <toad_> depends on the board probably
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[23:20] <Kedlun> then the only way to announce an insert would be on my own freesite?
[23:20] <Tommy[D]> What about fms?
[23:21] <toad_> yeah you could use FMS
[23:21] <toad_> or freemail an index author
[23:24] <Kedlun> i will give FMS a shot. I havent used it yet so this should be interesting
[23:24] <Kedlun> thanks
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Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
These logs were automatically created by FreenetLogBot on chat.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.