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[0:08] -dmwaters- {global notice} Good day all, I have a fairly large rotation server that needs to be restarted, about 6000 users. This won't take long, but it will be a bit noisey. I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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[0:43] <toad_> #!**!*!*!*!*!!
[0:43] <toad_> indexing by byte[] is impossible ... indexing by an object containing byte[] doesn't work, even if it's Comparable and has equals() ...
[0:44] <toad_> indexing by a String works, by value
[0:45] <toad_> and very very fast
[0:45] * toad_ is gonna have to convert keys to strings every time i want to do a lookup on a key ...
[0:45] <toad_> this is silly
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[0:59] <toad_> but silly or not ... it works
[1:00] <toad_> :)
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[1:55] <nextgens> hi
[1:57] <nextgens> toad_> what's up ?
[2:02] <nextgens> I'm not home atm and can't read the encrypted email you sent me :$
[2:07] <toad_> hmmm
[2:07] <toad_> 1sec i check
[2:08] <toad_> do you have a subject line or was that encrypted too?
[2:08] <toad_> i've found out why the db4o branch was so slow
[2:08] <toad_> oh i remember what i sent you
[2:08] <toad_> the mailing list archives only go up to may 2008
[2:09] <toad_> nextgens: also you should read the mini-summit-summary message on devl
[2:11] <nextgens> hmm
[2:11] <toad_> w.r.t. db4o, db4o will not index any of our objects by value apparently ... but we can convert to strings and then it works fine
[2:11] <nextgens> well, no time to read that atm; maybe later today
[2:12] <toad_> so that's a massive performance gain i made in the last few hours, maybe it will work fast enough to be useful
[2:12] <toad_> nextgens: it would be great if you could look into the mailing lists issue, or at least give me some idea where to look
[2:12] <nextgens> toad_> that sounds like a new root of bugs; Strings have got encodings!
[2:12] <toad_> nextgens: you should read the summit summary message as soon as you have time ... it's longish but worth it
[2:13] <toad_> nextgens: not in hex they don't
[2:13] <toad_> nextgens: actually strings don't have encodings at all, strings are just a series of char's
[2:13] <toad_> char's are UTF-16
[2:13] <toad_> so we're converting 34 bytes into 138 bytes :(
[2:13] <toad_> but at least it uses the index! :|
[2:14] <nextgens> ^-^
[2:15] <nextgens> okay, so for the mls:
[2:15] <nextgens> lurker is up to date
[2:15] <toad_> i doubt very much that they support indexing ByteBuffer's by value
[2:15] <toad_> it is?!
[2:15] <nextgens> and a script is in charge of updating monthly pipermail
[2:15] * toad_ checks
[2:15] <nextgens> apparently the last batch didn't run
[2:15] <toad_> no it isn't
[2:15] <nextgens> I dunno why yet
[2:16] <toad_> i don't see anything past may
[2:16] <toad_> on devl
[2:17] <nextgens> well, I do
[2:17] <nextgens> http://archives.freenetproject.org/mindex/devl@20080711.220000.00000000.en.html
[2:17] <nextgens> http://archives.freenetproject.org/message/20080709.122028.d2aae5d5.en.html
[2:17] <nextgens> that seems recent enough to me
[2:18] <nextgens> toad_> do you set the year correctly in the form ? :p
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[2:18] <toad_> hmmm
[2:18] <toad_> nextgens: i just click the link from the page on the freenet site
[2:18] <nextgens> apparently one of the indexed emails used a futur date in 2009
[2:18] <nextgens> so now lurker is "fast skipping" to it
[2:19] <toad_> well if i tell it to jump to 2009 then it shows recent stuff
[2:19] <toad_> if i don't it shows may
[2:19] <nextgens> :< so the plan is to postpone passive requests and stream based transports; once again
[2:20] <nextgens> toad_> I thought you wanted me to implement FOAF
[2:21] <toad_> no, the plan is to move up 0.8 :)
[2:21] <toad_> well it's a different way of looking at it
[2:21] <nextgens> arguably I haven't started yet... but that's one of the thing I could have done
[2:21] <toad_> implement whatever you want to implement, but let me know if you start on anything listed there
[2:22] <toad_> if you can get FOAF done in the near future then go for it
[2:22] * nextgens is agaisnt the "auto-bandwidth" calibration idea
[2:22] <toad_> oh?
[2:22] <nextgens> that can't possibly work
[2:22] <toad_> lots of p2p's do it
[2:22] <nextgens> sure but all of them use brazillion of connections
[2:22] <nextgens> we don't
[2:22] <nextgens> moreover we use udp
[2:23] <toad_> why does tons of connections make it easier?
[2:23] <nextgens> your auto-detection scheme has to be QoS proof
[2:24] <nextgens> our traffic isn't likely to be throtled the same way for each peer (different port numbers, packet sizes)
[2:24] <nextgens> using a lot of connections evens up the problem: the inet connection will be "mostly about" traffic generated from the p2p app
[2:24] <toad_> hmmm
[2:25] <nextgens> whereas our traffic will be insignificant; hence throtled differently
[2:25] * toad_ is tempted to say the answer is to use more connections then :)
[2:25] <nextgens> it's a real nightmare
[2:25] <nextgens> we can't do that
[2:25] <toad_> no, we can't use 100 connections
[2:25] <nextgens> because of routing; we said we need to limit the number of peers
[2:26] <toad_> well that's so we don't disadvantage darknet peers too much mainly
[2:26] <nextgens> of course we could have several links per peer using different transports
[2:26] <toad_> darknet nodes
[2:26] <nextgens> toad_> if we keep swapping on opennet we can't increase the number of peers
[2:27] <toad_> oh?
[2:27] <toad_> how does that follow?
[2:27] <nextgens> toad_> btw, hybrid network was *your* idea, remember ? :p
[2:27] <toad_> iirc it was ian's
[2:27] <toad_> but tiny isolated darknets really aren't what freenet is about
[2:27] <toad_> we don't provide what you would want for them
[2:28] <toad_> anyway, post your comments in reply to the message
[2:28] <toad_> anything urgent you need to ask me about?
[2:28] <nextgens> no but a global scallable one is what freenet is about
[2:28] <nextgens> toad_> streams are "0.9" according to it
[2:29] <nextgens> so are tunnels and passive requests
[2:29] <toad_> nextgens: if there is no hybrid mode then there will never be a global scalable darknet cos 95% of the network will use opennet and the rest will be SMALL darknets
[2:29] <toad_> nextgens: yeah, so?
[2:29] <nextgens> well, to sum up you've decided to rebrand 0.7.1 0.8 and 0.8 0.9: that's fine by me but that's marketing; nothing more, nothing less
[2:29] <toad_> nextgens: given what we will do for the next release, i figured we should call it 0.8
[2:29] <toad_> right
[2:30] <toad_> it's marketing, but the rational basis behind it is that 0.8 will be *significantly* faster and more secure than 0.7
[2:30] <toad_> now, any urgent business?
[2:30] <nextgens> hmm
[2:31] <nextgens> toad_> where is routing taking place nowadays ?
[2:31] <toad_> w.r.t. FOAF routing, i suggest you implement the first half
[2:31] <nextgens> I mean, in which file ?
[2:31] <toad_> i.e. expose peers' locations to peers
[2:31] <nextgens> LocationManager ?
[2:31] <toad_> that will need to be mandatory before we can implement the second phase
[2:31] <toad_> PeerManager
[2:31] * nextgens doesn't have a checkout of the code handy
[2:31] <nextgens> ok
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[2:32] <toad_> the logic may be a bit tricky
[2:32] <nextgens> and we want it to be backward compatible ?
[2:32] <toad_> afaics you want to route to the node closest to the target, within two hops ... subject to the usual constraints (who we've already visited etc)
[2:32] <nextgens> I mean can we have a self-mandatory build or should we avoid that ?
[2:32] <toad_> nextgens: avoid that
[2:33] <nextgens> okay
[2:33] <toad_> so for example if there's one Best Node and we can access it through 3 different nodes we haven't visited yet and which aren't backed off ... we should choose the one closest to the target
[2:33] <toad_> i mean the intermediary node closest to the target
[2:33] <toad_> even though the second hop is the same for all three
[2:33] <nextgens> I got that bit
[2:34] <nextgens> what I don't understand is how to propagate changes
[2:34] <nextgens> we learn about peers durring swapping
[2:34] <toad_> also, i dunno if e may have issues with backtracking - if we route to A to get to C, then it backtracks, do we try again with B? what if we did actually reach C?
[2:34] <nextgens> and when do we forget about them ?
[2:34] <toad_> how would we know?
[2:34] <toad_> etc
[2:34] <toad_> nextgens: umm, we broadcast location changes, what's the big deal?
[2:35] <toad_> we tell our peer our peers' locations when they connect ... then any change is broadcast to 2 hops
[2:35] <toad_> easy, no?
[2:35] <nextgens> no big deal as long as we agree on how to do it
[2:35] <toad_> well in principle
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[2:35] <toad_> in practice more complicated - you have disconnections and connections as well as swaps
[2:35] <toad_> and so on
[2:35] <nextgens> afaic it might represent a shitload of messages
[2:35] * toad_ has approx 900 commits to review before he is up to date, so it would be helpful if you did the FOAF stuff
[2:36] <nextgens> that's my conern
[2:36] <toad_> nextgens: why?
[2:36] <toad_> nextgens: if it's only one extra hop, why would it be a lot of traffic?
[2:36] <nextgens> if any level1 node disconnects we loose everyone behind it
[2:36] <toad_> sure ... so?
[2:36] <nextgens> meaning that we have to broadcast that all of them are gone
[2:36] <toad_> no
[2:37] * nextgens is lost
[2:37] <toad_> we just have an array of doubles for each PeerNode
[2:37] <toad_> what's the problem?
[2:37] <nextgens> okay
[2:37] <toad_> or doubles and identity hashes or something
[2:37] <toad_> but it doesn't have to be heavyweight
[2:37] <nextgens> and we assume the locations can't change without us noticing it
[2:38] <toad_> and when we lose a peer, we tell our peers that we lost that peer
[2:38] <toad_> it's only one hop
[2:38] <nextgens> understood
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[2:38] <toad_> nextgens: we will get a message when a node's location changes yeah
[2:38] <toad_> i mean we already get a message when a node's location changes
[2:38] <toad_> else we don't know that it has changed
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[2:40] <toad_> nextgens: when done, let me know which SVN numbers are involved, and i'll review just those commits
[2:40] <toad_> nextgens: is there anything more we need to talk about?
[2:40] <nextgens> well, I won't do it now; but it might be done when you get back tomorrow
[2:41] <nextgens> it's 12am here :)
[2:41] <toad_> that'd be great
[2:41] <toad_> it's past 3 am here
[2:41] <toad_> is there anything more?
[2:41] <nextgens> not that I can think of right now
[2:41] <nextgens> good night :)
[2:41] <toad_> you may want to display the peers' locations on the connections toadlet ...
[2:42] <toad_> in a sufficiently verbose mode ... like the one where we show the message counts
[2:42] <nextgens> a tooltip could do it
[2:42] <toad_> put them on a one-line table just above the message counts list
[2:42] <toad_> a tooltip will always get truncated
[2:42] <toad_> tooltips are evil
[2:42] <nextgens> drag the mouse over the current location and that displays other's
[2:42] <nextgens> ah
[2:42] <toad_> well, it will get truncated with most browsers
[2:43] <toad_> i think
[2:43] <toad_> certainly i've seen FF truncate them
[2:43] <nextgens> okay, will see how I handle it
[2:43] <toad_> ok
[2:43] <toad_> good night
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[3:22] <FreenetLogBot> The monitoring script has detected that http://mirror1.freenetproject.org/ is eligible to be back on the main mirror rotation list. Welcome Back!
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[5:17] <LeoStrange> *cough*
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[5:55] <v1rtuous> anyone about
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[6:19] <CryingFreeman> yeah, more or less.
[6:54] <nextgens> v1rtuous> hey
[6:55] <nextgens> v1rtuous> so, how is your SoC work going ?
[6:55] <v1rtuous> hey
[6:55] <v1rtuous> pretty well pretty well
[6:55] <v1rtuous> i just ran into a ... weird issue
[6:55] <v1rtuous> not with code but with actually getting freenet installed which seems ridiculous lol
[6:56] <nextgens> go ahead and ask, I'm here to help
[6:56] <v1rtuous> i uninstalled as i was preparing to move to a new system
[6:56] <v1rtuous> but decided i wanted to testo ut my interface some
[6:56] <v1rtuous> but when i reinstall it i get an error
[6:56] <v1rtuous> regarding ssl i believe
[6:56] <nextgens> let me guess, you're using ubuntu and openjdk, right ?
[6:57] <v1rtuous> yepyep
[6:57] <v1rtuous> and i've tried a lot of fixes
[6:57] <v1rtuous> including completely removing openjdk
[6:57] <v1rtuous> hehe
[6:58] <nextgens> the installer should have told you how broken the specific version of openjdk ubuntu bundles is
[6:59] <v1rtuous> mhm
[6:59] <FreenetLogBot> r21017 (1153) was built successfully on emu, mirrors are updating
[6:59] <nextgens> if it didn't that's a bug
[6:59] <nextgens> did you get any explicit error message blaming the jvm ?
[6:59] <v1rtuous> You are currently using:
[6:59] <v1rtuous> java version "1.6.0"
[6:59] <v1rtuous> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0-b09)
[6:59] <v1rtuous> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.6.0-b09, mixed mode)
[7:00] <nextgens> okay, that's the broken one
[7:00] <v1rtuous> k
[7:00] <nextgens> which installer did you use ?
[7:00] <nextgens> the tarball or the gui ?
[7:01] <v1rtuous> the gui
[7:01] <v1rtuous> i've had problems with the tarball as well i think
[7:01] <v1rtuous> but i ccan try it again
[7:01] <nextgens> can you try the gui out again please ?
[7:01] <v1rtuous> err
[7:01] <nextgens> and pastebin me the output of the processing stage
[7:01] <v1rtuous> i tried the GUI like 5 times
[7:01] <v1rtuous> kk
[7:01] <CryingFreeman> is there an OpenJDK that works now?
[7:01] <nextgens> ensure you have a recent version of the gui though ;à
[7:01] <CryingFreeman> in regard to "that's the broken one"?
[7:01] <nextgens> CryingFreeman> b10 is fixed
[7:02] <CryingFreeman> ah, ok. thanks. :)
[7:02] <v1rtuous> sec
[7:02] <v1rtuous> i saved one output
[7:02] <v1rtuous> http://pastebin.ca/1067742
[7:03] <nextgens> okay
[7:03] <nextgens> so it did display an error message
[7:03] <nextgens> huh
[7:03] <v1rtuous> mhm
[7:03] <nextgens> how come the user can't write a file into its home directory ?
[7:04] <v1rtuous> that beats me
[7:04] <nextgens> anyway
[7:04] <v1rtuous> and i tried a lot of fixes for that
[7:05] <nextgens> has someone made a wiki with the magic commands to type in ?
[7:05] <nextgens> I could link to it in the error message
[7:05] * nextgens adds an entry to the faq
[7:06] <v1rtuous> kk
[7:09] <nextgens> http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
[7:09] <nextgens> here it is
[7:09] <nextgens> feel free to improve it if needed :p
[7:09] <nextgens> I'm not using ubuntu so I'm only guessing
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[7:11] <nextgens> v1rtuous> appart from that; do you need anything from me ?
[7:12] <nextgens> v1rtuous> how do you work with dbkr? are you guys using a SCM or something?
[7:12] <nextgens> where did you put the code you've produced?
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[11:56] <shironeko> :3 Hello
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[11:57] <shironeko> Hi
[11:59] <shironeko> anyone awake?
[11:59] <nextgens> no
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[12:00] <shironeko> Then you're sleepwalking
[12:01] <shironeko> I have a few questions, since I'm new on Freenet. I'll simply state them and whoever wants can answer with a yes or a No
[12:01] <shironeko> When updating a file from a freesite with Jsite. Do I have to insert everything again?
[12:02] <nextgens> it depends
[12:03] <shironeko> 2- I've noticed the version number at the end of some USK keys. Ie. /activelink-index-text/32/. Is it possible to view a past/outdated version of that freesite
[12:03] <nextgens> yes
[12:03] <shironeko> How would I do that?
[12:03] <nextgens> using the ssk form of the url
[12:04] <shironeko> I'll try it out
[12:04] <nextgens> SSK@.../activelink-index-text-32/
[12:04] <nextgens> in your example
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[12:06] <shironeko> Thanks. What I meant in the first question, imagine I wanted to update my index.html, do I have to upload/insert the activelink and all the images again? Since Jsite will try to insert everything again if I don't delete it from the directory/folder in my computer
[12:07] <nextgens> it depends on the size of the freesite and whether it fits or not into a single container
[12:07] <nextgens> anyway, bbiab
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[12:08] <shironeko> Ok thanks, I'll just do some testing then
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[13:29] * Topic is 'http://freenetproject.org/download.html (1146 mandatory), please read before asking for help here. #freenet-refs is no more, turn on insecure mode if you don't have any friends using Freenet | http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | logs: http://emu.freenetproject.org/irc/ | Tor blocked due to spam (get an op to voice you) | #freenet-fr #freenet-se #freenet-es #freenet-it #freenet-de | paste at http://code.bulix.org'
[13:29] * Set by toad_ on Thu May 08 18:31:49 UTC 2008
[13:29] -ChanServ- [#freenet] Welcome to the official Freenet support channel! Read the channel topic for more information!
[13:31] <jameswhite> mmmm irony
[13:32] [freenode-connect VERSION]
[13:43] <toad_> bbiab
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[14:53] <sdiz> when i enable MINOR loglevel, all peers backoffs.. but my cpu usage is not very high...
[14:53] <sdiz> anybody else see the same problem?
[14:53] <sdiz> what hardware should i upgrade for this?
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[15:27] <saces> hi
[15:27] <saces> , all
[15:28] <saces> someone is working on plugin stuff?
[15:31] <toad_> hi sdiz
[15:31] <toad_> hi saces
[15:31] <toad_> sdiz: MINOR log level is bad
[15:31] <toad_> sdiz: unless you have fast hardware - lots of CPU, RAM and striped disks
[15:32] <toad_> sdiz: use the log level detail setting to enable MINOR only for those classes that need it
[15:32] <toad_> e.g. freenet.store:MINOR,freenet.node.FNP:MINOR
[15:32] <toad_> etc
[15:32] <toad_> saces: not that i know of :|
[15:32] <toad_> maybe Bombe is?
[15:32] <toad_> hmmm
[15:33] <toad_> the db4o branch is a lot faster than it was, but it's still too slow ...
[15:33] * toad_ will have to procede to the next stage in optimisations/massive-refactorings
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[15:38] <saces> toad_: loading plugins from freenet is the thing i want ;)
[15:38] <toad_> saces: :|
[15:38] <toad_> then code it
[15:39] <toad_> you want to maintain one over freenet? or you just don't want to have to access them over HTTP?
[15:39] <saces> but to get it poper working a kind of versioning is requierd...
[15:39] <toad_> have a look at the auto-updating system in node/updater/
[15:39] <toad_> most of that code should be reusable
[15:39] <toad_> saces: yeah, we need to add a simple integer version number, or a string which is ALWAYS comparable
[15:40] <toad_> preferably a simple integer version number
[15:40] <toad_> to the API
[15:40] <toad_> sdiz: how's it going?
[15:40] <toad_> sdiz: lots of commits! :)
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[15:46] <sdiz> toad_: ya... there are some big change... i have posted the new build on fms .. need some feedback from user.
[15:49] <toad_> cool
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[18:35] <saces> toad_: can you or nextgens move the plugin-config to a separate file?
[18:50] <toad_> why would that be useful? :)
[18:57] <toad_> it is possible
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[20:53] <shironeko> Good Afternoon
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[20:55] <shironeko> Could someone give me a link about how to configure Thunderbird for FMS?
[21:01] <Tommy[D]> What do you want to know?
[21:01] <Tommy[D]> Once running fms point thunderbird to localhost:1119
[21:02] <Tommy[D]> Once you have created an identity, enter it as name in thunderbird (use whatever you want as email as that will be ignored) and you should be able to send mails
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[22:04] <shironeko> What do I have to use as SMTP server?
[22:05] <shironeko> Whenn Adding the identity as Name do I only have to use the Name or the long SSK key too?
[22:09] <Tommy[D]> thunderbird will use fms as "smtp server", so that setting is ignored
[22:09] <Tommy[D]> and only the name
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[22:15] <toad_> you don't use SMTP to post to FMS
[22:15] <toad_> you might use it to post to freemail
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[22:25] <shironeko> Now I think I have done everything right :3 Messages appear. I wonder If I'll have to wait untill my identity has been anounced in order for my messages to appear
[22:26] <mrdmx> no
[22:26] <mrdmx> ah yes
[22:27] <shironeko> Ok, Then I'll just wait one day
[22:28] <shironeko> Btw, does anyone know on Linux What how to enable/disable the freenet autostart when computer boots up?
[22:33] <toad_> crontab -e on the user you installed it to
[22:33] <pmpp> crontab -e
[22:33] <toad_> wooh, the two major optimisations today and yesterday seem to be having a *major* impact on the performance of the db4o branch
[22:33] <toad_> it's working really well
[22:33] <toad_> famous last words, of course
[22:34] <toad_> and there's much more to do before we can merge it
[22:34] <toad_> but looking good so far
[22:36] <shironeko> Would it be ok If I delete the Crontab entry and just add run.sh to the Start programs/sessions menu?
[22:40] <pmpp> yes don't forget "start" after it
[22:40] <pmpp> hi all, do DarknetPeerNode N2N messages have strong crypto ?
[22:41] <mrdmx> RTFM
[22:41] <shironeko> where is TFM?
[22:41] <mrdmx> use fucking google
[22:41] <shironeko> thanks pmpp
[22:42] <mrdmx> or READ THE FUCKING TOPIC
[22:42] <shironeko> :)
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[22:48] <mrdmx> hey toad
[22:48] <mrdmx> what if they tell you you either put a backdoor or go to jail
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[22:54] <toad_> mrdmx: the scary thing about that scenario is the auto-update system
[22:54] <toad_> mrdmx: the code is fine, it can be reviewed, etc
[22:54] <toad_> but the auto-updates are binary :(
[22:56] <mrdmx> answer the question plz :)
[22:58] <pmpp> toad_> do DarknetPeerNode N2N messages have strong crypto ?
[22:58] <mrdmx> READ THE FUCKING WIKI
[22:59] <pmpp> there's something about the bulkreceiver in the wiki ?
[23:00] <pmpp> i'd enjoy a link to the page thx
[23:03] <pmpp> mrdmx> are you a freenet dev ?
[23:05] <mrdmx> nope
[23:05] <mrdmx> perhaps i didnt understand your question
[23:05] <pmpp> so stfu thx
[23:06] <mrdmx> :) yup
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