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[1:09] <hello23> Hi :)
[1:15] <hello23> anybody here?
[1:15] <hello23> wanna trade refs?
[1:17] <Tommy[D]> if you need refs, enable opennet ;)
[1:17] <squee_> do If you ned refs
[1:17] <squee_> Go to the ref exchange channel
[1:17] <Tommy[D]> does not exist any more
[1:17] <Tommy[D]> not needed as opennet is fully working now
[1:18] <squee_> Oh...
[1:18] <squee_> So you can't even pick your nodes?
[1:19] <Tommy[D]> eh, use darknet with trusted people.... darknet with strangers does not give you really better security than opennet
[1:20] <Tommy[D]> and if you pick some random strangers or freenet does it for you, no big difference
[1:20] <squee_> Trusted people, heheh.
[1:20] <squee_> Sorry, i have a thing for oxymorons.
[1:20] <hello23> oh cool finally responses..
[1:21] <hello23> what is opennet? I thought there is only darknet?
[1:21] <Tommy[D]> 2 minutes is rather fast response at this time and date :)
[1:21] <Tommy[D]> hello23, go to the config page and there enable opennet/insecure mode and wait some minutes, after that, freenet should work for you
[1:22] <hello23> yea.. No worries.. Just thought nobody is talking.
[1:22] <hello23> oky..
[1:23] <Tommy[D]> opennet is for people who have no friends /trusted people they can trade refs with (=darknet), for those freenet does everything to get peers, also its of course less secure than real darknet with friends or trusted peole
[1:23] <hello23> so people aren't trading darknet anymore?
[1:23] <hello23> well I have darknet peers, just need more of them, as a lot died off..
[1:23] <hello23> 2 connections isn't much to keep any decent speed going
[1:23] <Tommy[D]> some do still do because the still think its more secure
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[1:25] <Tommy[D]> if you have an older node, you perhaps need to download http://freenetproject.org/alpha/opennet/seednodes.fref into your freenet dir to get opennet fully working
[1:27] <Tommy[D]> but opennet is the easiest and best way for you and the network to get some peers (if you dont know enough trusted people to trade with and are not in a land where freenet is illegal)
[1:28] <hello23> I'll try that.. I have 1095, I think
[1:29] <Tommy[D]> not 1096?
[1:29] <squee_> so there is a newer version?
[1:29] <squee_> IS it faster?
[1:30] <Tommy[D]> 1095 had some problems with speed, they should be solved with 1096, so it should be faster
[1:30] <squee_> As in CPU hog wise i mean.
[1:31] <Tommy[D]> seems to behave better
[1:31] <squee_> Awsome.
[1:31] <squee_> I may check it out again at some point.
[1:32] <squee_> I suport the idea fully i just don't use it myself.
[1:32] <hello23> I'll check.. It might have auto updated to 96 by now
[1:33] <Tommy[D]> under 3 percent cpus usage for me, i would not call this a cpu hog :)
[1:35] <Tommy[D]> i support the idea, so i support development, freenet itself and users, if i have time for it ;-)
[1:44] <squee_> Tommy[D], whats yoru ram, etc.
[1:44] <hello23> yea.. I wish freenet would have some better development work. It's too slow. Some countries come to rely on it for communications
[1:45] <hello23> well my ram it through the roof as I have tons of tabs for firefox open..
[1:45] <hello23> cpu is pretty low
[2:00] <Tommy[D]> hello23, do some development work, the more people work on it, the faster the development is :)
[2:02] <Tommy[D]> squee_, freenet should have at least 128MB ram, so together with a slim linux, 256MB should be enough, also more is always better
[2:02] <squee_> Yea, i'm using fluxbox.
[2:02] <squee_> So it should all be good.
[2:03] <squee_> It's just something you want in the backround though, something VERY lightweight.
[2:06] <Tommy[D]> as freenet (+frost and thaw) are written in java, they will always need a good amount of ram, but that should be no big problem with todays prices for ram
[2:09] <Tommy[D]> anyway, enough activity for me this night > away
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[2:16] <squee_> Tommy[D], not really.
[2:17] <squee_> I run a cheap laptop with low ram
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[3:44] <hello23> Hi :)
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[4:22] <funda3> will freenet run on a 64-bit jvm?
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[4:25] <- *knoxman* http://dark-code.bulix.org/a37gky-62467?raw
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[5:02] <hello23> Hi :)
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[5:25] <kobbay> hi all
[5:26] <kobbay> may anyone have an idea about this error in my wrapper.log : Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: freenet/node/NodeStarter ?
[5:26] <kobbay> when i try to start freenet with ./run.sh start
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[5:55] <Sham> Hi all
[5:56] <Sham> I get a bunch of stuff from bittorrent. Will freenet do th same kind of thing?
[5:57] * Sham is now known as harlequin516
[5:59] <phrosty> freenet is not your typical p2p network. it does not act anything like bittorrent, though it can be used to transfer files.
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[6:13] <kobbay> hi
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[9:23] <TheSeeker> @Q%%!
[9:23] <TheSeeker> looks like a recent update nuked my darknet peers file :(
[9:24] <TheSeeker> and of course, there's no backup.
[9:27] <Ratchet> oh sh... :-/
[9:29] <TheSeeker> not a HUGE problem, since most know that I hang out here and will come here looking for me to reconnect if they want. Opennet is working, so I'll be making a frost post as soon as it decides to finish loading.
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[9:36] <EbiDK> Speaking of things working, how's everything working compared to back in around May? I've been gone since then and I'm curious.
[9:37] <TheSeeker> I can't remember that far back. Freenet's got too rapid a development cycle to remember trends over 4 weeks from months ago :P
[9:39] <TheSeeker> anywho... gotta go to ged, Scrooge says I have to work tomorrow. (today) ... at least half the day.
[9:39] <EbiDK> Anything significant to tell? I see there's opennet now, did it steal all the users?
[9:39] <EbiDK> :/
[9:39] <EbiDK> Laters
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[9:40] <Nogaso> depends what you mean by steal... a few still ask about #freenet-refs so its not completely dead I guess
[9:40] <TheSeeker> there's still people coming around encouraging users to go back to 0.5 ...but the Pussy Galore freesite started getting migrated to 0.7, so that's something :P
[9:41] <EbiDK> I hope most people will use darknet
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[9:42] <Nogaso> most people know noone running freenet, adding random people from here to darknet is no better than opennet
[9:42] <TheSeeker> I don't. at least not until freenet is standard on every PC :P I don't believe that a darknet only approach can result in a small world topography given the user-base we have currently.
[9:43] * styX-Xyts (n=styx@) Quit (Client Quit)
[9:45] <EbiDK> Nogaso: I know, but those who do know people or who can convince others to join
[9:45] <EbiDK> TheSeeker: True but I also only said most people, not all
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[11:07] <Androw> hi !
[11:08] <Nogaso> hi
[11:09] <Androw> nogaso do you want to excahnge refs ?
[11:10] <Nogaso> not really, opennet works for me...
[11:10] <Androw> ho ok
[11:11] <Androw> do you use thaw ?
[11:11] <Nogaso> lot a lot, but sometimes, mostly frost
[11:12] <Androw> ok
[11:12] <Androw> can you explin me how index work ?
[11:12] <Androw> explain*
[11:12] <Nogaso> I can try :)
[11:13] <Androw> thanks a lot
[11:13] * EbiDK is now known as ljn1981
[11:14] * ljn1981 is now known as ljn1981_
[11:14] <Nogaso> simply put its a list of files and other indexes that you can add to Thaw
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[11:14] <Nogaso> from there you can download the files etc.
[11:15] <Androw> ok
[11:15] * ljn1981_ is now known as ljn1981
[11:16] <Androw> can i give the index refs to someone that want to see the file i upload ?
[11:16] <Androw> (sorry for my english u'm french)
[11:16] <Androw> i'm*
[11:17] <Nogaso> if you upload a file you will get a key back, this key points to the file
[11:17] <Androw> ok
[11:17] <Nogaso> if you give that key to someone they can download the file, and/or you can add it to an index
[11:18] <Androw> but can i give the index references like that people can see all the file i put in ?
[11:19] <Nogaso> yes, in Thaw if you right click an index it says Index -> Copy index key to clipboard
[11:20] <Androw> ok
[11:20] <Androw> thanks a lot
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[11:59] <tommy240> ref trade anyone?
[12:00] <toad_> why not use opennet?
[12:02] <tommy240> ive never really bothered to ask what the difference is, and darknet has worked fine for me
[12:03] <toad_> ummm well there's a reason we got rid of #freenet-refs
[12:04] <tommy240> was it security related?
[12:04] <toad_> exchanging noderefs with total strangers is insecure (the bad guys probably run ref-bots), not very user friendly, and produces a very poor topology => network won't work well
[12:05] <tommy240> if i wanted to run opennet where would i find a tutorial?
[12:06] <toad_> just downloads http://downloads.freenetproject.org/opennet/seednodes.fref into your freenet directory, and turn on insecure mode on the config page
[12:07] <run2time> that link gives me a 550 error
[12:07] <tommy240> will it improve network speed as well? just curious
[12:07] <run2time> o got a 404 after retrying
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[12:36] <toad_> hmmm
[12:36] <toad_> well it's somewhere around there :|
[12:37] <toad_> sorry it's /alpha/opennet
[12:37] <toad_> http://downloads.freenetproject.org/alpha/opennet/seednodes.fref
[12:37] <toad_> sorry
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[12:57] <saces> something to read(?) & play: USK@MYLAnId-ZEyXhDGGbYOa1gOtkZZrFNTXjFl1dibLj9E,Xpu27DoAKKc8b0718E-ZteFrGqCYROe7XBBJI57pB4M,AQACAAE/jHyperochaLoader/2/
[13:05] <toad_> bbiab
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[13:24] <toad_> saces: interesting
[13:24] <toad_> saces: it would be great if we could distribute plugins over freenet, and auto-update them (with separate revocation keys for third-party plugins)
[13:25] <toad_> saces: have a look at node/updater/ - it would be best if we could reuse the existing code mostly
[13:26] <toad_> saces: one problem is we'd need to add a versioning API to the plugins before we could update them
[13:32] <BraveHe> hi
[13:48] <toad_> rehi
[13:48] * toad_ sets mode +v BraveHe
[13:52] <BraveHe> It's time to lunch here, i'll back after lunch, bye!
[13:52] <saces> toad_: each time I resolve a "sub-problem" I get ten more on the list!
[13:54] <saces> USK@MYLAnId-ZEyXhDGGbYOa1gOtkZZrFNTXjFl1dibLj9E,Xpu27DoAKKc8b0718E-ZteFrGqCYROe7XBBJI57pB4M,AQACAAE/jHyparochaNodeLib/5/
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[14:15] <p0s> hi.
[14:15] <p0s> toad_: i did not delete the file. i just used the commit function of eclipse/subclipse. was it just that one single commit which was strange?
[14:15] * Gtfru99 (n=chatzill@) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]")
[14:18] <toad_> p0s: yes
[14:18] <toad_> p0s: want a dev cloak?
[14:18] <p0s> the only thing which was different about that commit is that i imported the patch which i had created before
[14:18] <p0s> maybe eclipse wasn't fine with that.
[14:18] <toad_> p0s: actually i'm not group contact so i can't get you one..
[14:18] <p0s> a dev cloak??
[14:18] <toad_> when nextgens is on ask him to get you one so you can join #freenet-dev
[14:19] <p0s> ah
[14:19] <p0s> okay
[14:19] <toad_> so you show up as freenet/dev/p0s instead of <my ip address> :)
[14:19] <p0s> nice :)
[14:19] <p0s> where the commits fine besides the svn problem?
[14:19] <toad_> all of them were yeah
[14:19] <toad_> importing patches isn't usually a problem for me :|
[14:19] <toad_> i dunno
[14:20] <toad_> if you apply patch using the right click menu, that is
[14:20] <p0s> i'll keep an eye on it. maybe i can find a function in subclipse to preview the changes a commit will do. then i will always check whether they are sane.
[14:21] <p0s> ..okay. as you've seen i found another few places where the maxMemory function was used. i think i've caught all of them now.
[14:21] <p0s> was not possible to increase the database memory before.
[14:22] <toad_> a few other? i only saw one
[14:22] <p0s> actually two
[14:22] <p0s> the other places where it is used only log the memory size and don't do any calculations based on it.
[14:23] <p0s> and the one place was about the database, the function was used two times there.
[14:23] <toad_> ah
[14:23] <toad_> right
[14:23] <p0s> ... anyway, my node runs quite well now with gij. it does lots of work.
[14:23] <p0s> unfortunately it crashes every few hours: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Cannot create additional threads
[14:23] <p0s> Memory: GC 71.6 MiB -> 70.6 MiB: total 84.2 MiB free 13.6 MiB max Infinity
[14:24] <p0s> Running threads: 367
[14:24] <toad_> hmmm that's odd
[14:24] <toad_> check your ulimits
[14:24] <p0s> this is weird indeed
[14:24] <toad_> maybe you have a low ulimit
[14:24] <toad_> 400 odd threads shouldn't be a problem on a modern system
[14:25] <toad_> anyway, i'm delighted that it works
[14:25] <toad_> does it use the native FEC code?
[14:25] <toad_> do you get an error about that on startup?
[14:25] <p0s> INFO: Optimized native BigInteger library 'net/i2p/util/libjbigi-linux-pentium3.so' loaded from resource
[14:25] <p0s> do you mean this?
[14:25] <toad_> okay, that's good, although unnecessary on GCJ
[14:26] <toad_> i mean do you get an error like this: Failed to load native FEC: java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: nativeNewFEC
[14:26] <toad_> java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: nativeNewFEC
[14:26] <p0s> wait
[14:26] <toad_> and then a long stack trace
[14:26] <toad_> STUN presumably doesn't work, since it requires 1.5 and GCJ 4.3 isn't out yet
[14:27] <p0s> grep FEC wrapper.log => nothing
[14:27] <p0s> grep FEC logs/*.log => nothing
[14:27] <toad_> hmmm
[14:27] <toad_> maybe it works then ... you're on x86?
[14:27] <toad_> 32-bit x86?
[14:27] <p0s> yep. pentium 3
[14:27] <toad_> ok
[14:28] <p0s> ... how to check the ulimits? there is a command called "ulimit" in my system but it does not have a manpage
[14:29] <p0s> ah got it
[14:29] <p0s> open files (-n) 1024
[14:29] <p0s> maybe thats the problem
[14:30] <toad_> no
[14:30] <toad_> hmm
[14:30] <toad_> man builtins
[14:30] <toad_> and search for ulimit
[14:30] <p0s> "ulimit -a"
[14:30] <toad_> right
[14:30] <p0s> max user processes (-u) unlimited
[14:30] <toad_> hmmm
[14:30] <toad_> i dunno then
[14:31] <toad_> does the wrapper work with gcj?
[14:31] <p0s> yes.
[14:31] <toad_> cool
[14:31] <p0s> i didn't really configure anything!
[14:32] <p0s> i just downloaded all gij packages which the wiki says one should download and freenet works.
[14:33] <p0s> i think i'll increase the open file amount anyway. i mean what if a running thread takes three file handles..
[14:34] <p0s> but it's still okay even if freenet dies a lot: the wrapper restarts it automatically :) so my node will be running 24/7
[14:36] <toad_> it shouldn't
[14:36] <toad_> well hopefully
[14:37] <toad_> if you have a big queue then getting downloads back to where they were can take a *long* time
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[14:37] <toad_> if you're crashing every few hours then the node will have high cpu usage and disk access constantly because of that
[14:38] <toad_> oh, please mark https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=1554 as resolved
[14:38] * toad_ gives you developer rights to the bugtracker
[14:39] <p0s> mmh
[14:39] <p0s> i thought that this was like that => "if you're crashing every few hours then the node will have high cpu usage and disk access constantly because of that"
[14:39] <p0s> it seemed to be so
[14:40] <p0s> thanks for devel rights. unfortunately i can't access the SVN or the bugtracker right now. timeout
[14:41] <toad_> odd that i can
[14:41] <toad_> bbiab
[14:41] <p0s> Pinging bugs.freenetproject.org [89.16.176.134] with 32 bytes of data: Request timed out.
[14:42] <ljn1981|away> Loads fine here
[14:44] <ljn1981|away> Marked as resolved now :)
[14:46] <p0s> .... the out-of-memory dieing always happens with around 350 threads. i will set the thread limit to 300 and see what happens.
[14:47] <Tommy[D]> p0s, i can access it too, so the access problem should be on your end or isp end
[14:48] * p0s traceroutes
[14:49] <ljn1981|away> toad_: Any significant progress to tell about since September last year? I've kinda been gone since.
[14:49] <p0s> traceroute fails somewhere in the UK ^^
[14:49] <p0s> what an irony :)
[14:49] <ljn1981|away> How fun
[14:50] <p0s> ge-0.bogons.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net
[14:50] <p0s> last reachable host, then timeouts.
[14:50] <Tommy[D]> september last year? o_O 1 obvious thing: opennet is implemented and working
[14:51] <Tommy[D]> ljn1981|away, which version did you use that time?
[14:51] <ljn1981|away> 0.7
[14:51] * mYone (n=schlepto@) has joined #freenet
[14:52] <Tommy[D]> its still 0.7
[14:52] <Tommy[D]> the third number....
[14:52] <ljn1981|away> Ah
[14:52] <Tommy[D]> actual its 1096
[14:52] <ljn1981|away> Probably something like that.
[14:53] <p0s> whole freenetproject.org is down for me
[14:53] <Tommy[D]> september last year could be even <1000 so you could even have missed that cryptobug with pre-1010
[14:53] <p0s> where is the site hosted?
[14:55] <p0s> don't tell me that its hosted in UK :)
[14:55] <ljn1981|away> My last commit was September the 29th it seem. So I stopped shortly after that.
[14:56] <ljn1981|away> Looks like it
[14:59] <Tommy[D]> hm, looks like UK, but i dont have your hop in my traceroute
[14:59] <p0s> the UK is the wrong place for hosting anything with "free" in its name ;)
[15:00] * Nico_32 (n=user@) has joined #freenet
[15:00] <p0s> i'll reconnect and see if it works then.
[15:00] * p0s (n=1mn57@) Quit ()
[15:03] * p0s (n=1mn57@) has joined #freenet
[15:04] <p0s> still does not work.
[15:04] <ljn1981|away> p0s: The world is the wrong place. Of course some parts are worse than others.
[15:04] <p0s> hehe you're right ;)
[15:04] <Tommy[D]> p0s, tried freenetproject.org over tor?
[15:05] * asd654 (n=asd654@) Quit ()
[15:05] * kobam (n=kobam@) has joined #freenet
[15:05] <p0s> i will. wait 10 minutes, gotta put the food into the stove
[15:06] <p0s> maybe we need a mirror of freenetproject.org in freenet?
[15:07] <nextgens> hi
[15:09] <ljn1981|away> Hey
[15:09] * nextgens starts to read backlog
[15:10] <kobam> hi! is #freenet-refs closed?
[15:10] <ljn1981|away> nextgens: I'd like a dev cloak too.
[15:13] <Tommy[D]> kobam, yes, opennet is fully working now, so no more need fore #freenet-refs
[15:17] <nextgens> ljn1981|away> you've svn access ?
[15:17] <nextgens> who's xor btw ?
[15:18] <ljn1981|away> nextgens: I used to have, not sure I do anymore but I still have access on mantis
[15:19] <Tommy[D]> xor = p0s in this channel i think
[15:20] <nextgens> okay
[15:22] <p0s> yes.
[15:22] * kobam (n=kobam@) Quit ("Konversation terminated!")
[15:22] <nextgens> p0s> I suggest you take ownership of freejvm bugs on mantis then :)
[15:22] <p0s> ... mantis? bugtracker or what?
[15:23] <nextgens> yes the bugtracker
[15:23] <p0s> if it was working right now i'd look for freejvm bugs ;)
[15:24] <nextgens> it works for me
[15:24] <nextgens> what's your external ip address ?
[15:24] <p0s> the whole freenetproject.org site is down for me
[15:24] * nextgens will check it against the blacklist
[15:24] <p0s> 84.168.158.195
[15:24] <p0s> blacklist ??
[15:24] <p0s> i have a dynamic ip.
[15:25] <nextgens> hmmm
[15:25] <nextgens> it gets stuck on ffm-s2-rou-1071.DE.eurorings.net when I do a traceroute
[15:25] <p0s> i get stuck there: ge-0.bogons.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net
[15:26] <nextgens> that's weird
[15:26] <nextgens> not much can be done anyway
[15:26] <p0s> btw: is there a mirror of freenetproject.org in freenet yet?
[15:26] <nextgens> no
[15:26] <nextgens> and there won't be until RSKs are implemented
[15:26] * neglesaks (n=anarchis@) has joined #freenet
[15:26] <nextgens> I need to sort out the mirroring system
[15:27] <nextgens> it is experiencing problems
[15:27] <neglesaks> merry xmas all :)
[15:27] <p0s> mmh k
[15:27] <nextgens> hi neglesaks
[15:29] <p0s> i'll try TOR now.
[15:29] <p0s> did you check the blacklist?
[15:30] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[15:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[15:31] <neglesaks> hi next
[15:31] <neglesaks> ah, refs is gone. good thing imo... most of my refs are dead and gone .(
[15:33] <Tommy[D]> use opennet instead ;)
[15:35] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit ()
[15:36] <neglesaks> already set it up and forwarded the ports. :)
[15:38] <p0s> WTF
[15:38] <p0s> Pinging www.torproject.org [86.59.21.36] with 32 bytes of data:
[15:38] <p0s> Request timed out.
[15:38] <p0s> WTF WTF WTF
[15:39] <Ratchet> p0s: they're on you ;-)
[15:39] <Tommy[D]> tor.eff.org?
[15:39] <p0s> redirects to torproject.org
[15:40] <p0s> anyway i got tor installed i just need to know the local port on which it acts as a proxy, can someone tell me?
[15:41] <Ratchet> p0s: you're running freebsd iirc?
[15:41] <neglesaks> doesnt look like the seed nodes are rersponding to my connect requests
[15:41] <p0s> got it
[15:41] <p0s> Ratchet: no
[15:41] <Ratchet> oh, then i'm wrong :-)
[15:47] <p0s> actually i still don't know the port of tor
[15:47] <Tommy[D]> p0s, you should use tor with privoxy or a similar proxy as tor itself does not get e.g. your dns-requests
[15:47] <p0s> i'm using vidalia
[15:47] <Ratchet> don't forget to turn off logging for your proxy in front of tor
[15:48] <neglesaks> how long does it typically take for the node to announce it self once the fref is added to my node?
[15:48] <Tommy[D]> 8118 should be the port for your browser
[15:48] <p0s> thanks
[15:49] <p0s> no thats the wrong port
[15:49] <neglesaks> 8888 is stardard afaik
[15:49] <Tommy[D]> neglesaks, if the start page tells you something about announcement, some minutes,
[15:49] <p0s> ok
[15:49] <neglesaks> ok. i've added the fraf i was told by the node, and waiting .)
[15:49] <Tommy[D]> p0s: netstat -tulpen and watch it
[15:50] <Tommy[D]> neglesaks, did you restart the node after adding the file to the freenet dir?
[15:50] <p0s> i was messing around with netstat already :)
[15:51] <Tommy[D]> if privoxy and tor are not listed (with the correct user), start them first :)
[15:51] <p0s> wait a moment, tor uses the same port as freenet?
[15:51] <neglesaks> i havent added it to teh dir, ive added the URL to teh fref in the appropraite slot. but ill try restarting, hang on
[15:51] <p0s> doh.
[15:52] <Tommy[D]> tor uses 9050 per default, privoxy 8118 per default iirc
[15:52] <p0s> 9050 is the control port
[15:53] <Tommy[D]> neglesaks, you have to download http://downloads.freenetproject.org/alpha/opennet/seednodes.fref into your freenet dir and after that restart freenet, else it wont work
[15:53] <neglesaks> ok, ty, hang on
[15:54] <neglesaks> fn root dir, yes?
[15:54] <p0s> no, 9051 is the control port
[15:54] <p0s> grmbl
[15:55] <Tommy[D]> neglesaks, yes, the same dir as freenet.ini and run.sh are in
[15:55] <neglesaks> restarting
[15:57] <p0s> freenetproject.org works with tor.
[15:57] <p0s> oh well, but what does it help me...
[15:58] <Tommy[D]> complain to your provider to give you another route? :)
[15:58] <p0s> i actually never did that yet.
[15:58] <p0s> i wonder how that works.
[15:59] <p0s> anyway, gotta eat, back in one hour, then i'll call my ISP
[15:59] * BraveHe (n=Brave@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:59] <neglesaks> it works! thank you, and a merry yuletide to you all... within a month i'll be hosting my fn node on a 25 M fibre line :)
[16:00] * p0s is now known as p0s|eating
[16:00] * p0s|eating is now known as p0s
[16:00] <p0s> damn
[16:00] <Tommy[D]> neglesaks, sounds nice :)
[16:00] <Tommy[D]> welcome back, p0s :D
[16:00] <neglesaks> damn right =]
[16:00] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[16:00] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:00] <neglesaks> cu all later
[16:01] * neglesaks (n=anarchis@) Quit ("seeya... i'm gonna napalm some pöödles now.")
[16:01] <p0s> (haven't been on IRC for 3 years and still using my old configuration so i got no clue how to prevent it from changing my nick back)
[16:05] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:19] * sich (n=sich@) has joined #freenet
[16:21] * BraveHe (n=Brave@) has joined #freenet
[16:30] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[16:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:34] <toad_> sanity: hi
[16:34] <sanity> toad_: hi
[16:35] <sanity> toad_: how is it going?
[16:35] <toad_> well, i still haven't done the auto-harvesting code yet
[16:35] <toad_> been various bugs to deal with e.g. we were sending huge packets
[16:35] <toad_> hopefully we can do some serious testing and get alpha 2 out around late january
[16:35] <sanity> that would be cool
[16:36] <sanity> some more usability testing before then too
[16:36] <toad_> yeah, that's essential
[16:36] * toad_ is taking 25-31 dec off
[16:36] <sanity> i think we are in good shape, but I think some people may be lost as to what to do next after installation - based on my last attempt to install from scratch
[16:36] <sanity> k
[16:37] <toad_> yeah, and some may expect instant gratification and be disappointed when we don't warn them that it could be slow
[16:37] <toad_> although we want to avoid too much clutter obviously
[16:39] <ljn1981|away> BTW, something that'd be nice is some more news on the website. There must have been something worth of mention since that big donation last year.
[16:39] <toad_> yeah, we will update the website when we release alpha 2
[16:40] <toad_> we might even call it beta 1, but i'm not sure about that
[16:40] <toad_> imho there are some big issues we should look at / think about / do before we are feature complete for 0.7.0
[16:41] <toad_> ULPRs we have mostly done but not deployed; there are various ideas for load management, we may want to do some simple load simulations (hopefully that isn't a complete contradiction in terms!)
[16:41] <toad_> toad_: me if you need to talk to me
[16:42] <ljn1981|away> I'm curious how good it's gotten while I was away. Just need to get java installed and development tools installed on this thing next year :)
[16:42] <toad_> well ... not good enough, as always
[16:43] <toad_> but i was looking through the old 0.5 roadmap the other day and we've done ~ 80% of it in 0.7
[16:43] <ljn1981|away> True, but I remember it being quite nice but far from done.
[16:43] <ljn1981|away> Cool
[16:43] <toad_> and made some progress on security too
[16:44] <toad_> though we've got an awfully long way to go on that
[16:44] <ljn1981|away> That's good
[16:44] <ljn1981|away> Yeah, not to mention that security is never a destination.
[16:44] <toad_> well sure
[16:45] <toad_> but there are various fundamental design issues we still have to deal with before i'd be happy to call it 1.0-feature-complete
[16:45] <toad_> some interesting discussion on that on devl recently
[16:46] <ljn1981|away> I should start following that again. Got about a 1.2 years of freenet mailinglist mails piling up in my mailbox that I should skim through the topics of
[16:47] <ljn1981|away> Hmm, got to go, mom wants to have room on the table for christmas dinner. Season greetings everyone.
[16:49] <toad_> merry xmas
[16:49] <toad_> cya
[16:59] <p0s> ... back
[16:59] <p0s> i still cannot reach freenetproject.org
[16:59] <toad_> :|
[16:59] <toad_> routing problem? censorship problem?
[16:59] <p0s> i've asked a friend, he is using the same ISP, he cannot access it, too.
[17:00] <p0s> unfortunately it's one of the largest ISPs in germany
[17:00] <p0s> it seems like a routing problem.
[17:00] <p0s> the route is lost somewhere in the UK
[17:00] <p0s> therefore it could also be censorship >:(
[17:00] <p0s> i don'
[17:00] <p0s> i don't trust the UK anymore.
[17:01] <toad_> :|
[17:01] <toad_> i can get to fpo
[17:01] <toad_> and i'm in the uk
[17:01] <Tommy[D]> i can from germany, but another isp
[17:01] <toad_> p0s: from home, right?
[17:01] <toad_> you're not in a cafe or a uni or something?
[17:01] <p0s> i am at home, yes
[17:02] <p0s> Tommy[D]: which one?
[17:02] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit ()
[17:03] <p0s> thats the last reachable host: ge-0.bogons.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.12.74]
[17:05] <toad_> emu has had some routing issues in recent weeks actually
[17:05] <toad_> packet loss
[17:05] <p0s> mmh
[17:05] <toad_> bytemark are in the process of fixing it
[17:05] <p0s> well let's hope that this gets fixed
[17:06] <toad_> :|
[17:06] <p0s> my ISP is using the backbone of the largest german ISP
[17:06] <toad_> well let me know if it doesn't
[17:06] <p0s> so its possible that most german people cannot access it right now.
[17:06] <toad_> does your ISP do any porn blocking or similar stuff?
[17:06] <p0s> they got an insanely large market share
[17:06] <p0s> not yet.#
[17:07] <toad_> then it presumably isn't censorship
[17:07] <p0s> it still sucks :)
[17:07] <toad_> yep
[17:08] <p0s> torproject.org is also down for me, btw.
[17:08] <toad_> hmmmm
[17:08] <p0s> weird, eh?
[17:08] <toad_> i thought it was tor.eff.org ?
[17:08] <p0s> which redirects to torproject.org
[17:08] <toad_> hmmm
[17:09] <toad_> well that is suspicious, if you don't have any other sites broken
[17:09] <toad_> i suggest you find a proxy
[17:10] <toad_> Sponsoring Registrar:CSL Computer Service Langenbach GmbH d/b/a joker.com a German GmbH (R25-LROR)
[17:10] <toad_> interesting, torproject is actually registered in germany!
[17:10] <p0s> strange
[17:11] <p0s> well, i am quite well informed about censorship in our country.
[17:11] <toad_> but the listed addresses are in atlanta, US
[17:11] <p0s> there is no real internet censorship yet.
[17:11] <toad_> i thought there was?
[17:11] <Tommy[D]> p0s, remember arcor ;)
[17:11] <p0s> there are some single blocked sites
[17:11] <p0s> Tommy[D]: i know i know.
[17:11] <toad_> well ... would complaining to your ISP help?
[17:11] <p0s> but its not like that you couldn
[17:12] <p0s> couldn't have an overview of what's blocked
[17:12] <toad_> i thought there were moves to block all illegal sites in germany?
[17:12] <p0s> as loung as its not hosted inside germany^^
[17:12] <p0s> its difficult to explain. in my opionion germany is no democracy anymore but oh well, the internet still works for now.
[17:12] <toad_> i mean in the judiciary?
[17:13] <p0s> they are considering implementing censorship all day long but it has not arrived yet.
[17:13] <Tommy[D]> toad_, some people try, but if that comes true, germany is no more a place for some people to live in
[17:13] <p0s> toad_: yea that's it, its about blocking porn.
[17:13] <p0s> and politicians usually say that there are guides on how to build bombs on the internet :)
[17:13] <p0s> like once a day
[17:13] <toad_> i know there was an incident involving an external porn site being sued by an internal one etc
[17:13] <toad_> but i thought there were wider moves afoot?
[17:14] <toad_> 99.9% of people who download bomb making instructions don't build a bomb
[17:14] <p0s> what i wanna say: we are not at the point where they would block tor/freenet YET.
[17:14] <toad_> okay i made that up on the spot, but imho it's true
[17:14] <p0s> they didn't even consider blocking emule.
[17:15] <toad_> ... and most people who do build a bomb don't use it for terrorism either
[17:15] <p0s> they blow theirselves up? :)
[17:15] <toad_> a lot of them yeah
[17:15] <p0s> :)
[17:15] <toad_> read the introduction on some of the bomb making guides
[17:15] <toad_> a lot of them read like that
[17:15] <p0s> what is more severe in germany:
[17:15] <p0s> there is this new law which has passed parliament.
[17:15] <toad_> I was really into bombs ... then I lost a hand ... :)
[17:15] <toad_> that sort of thing
[17:15] * toad_ was never into bombs of course
[17:16] <p0s> which says: all data about who had email/telephone/cellphone communication with whom and when has to be stored for 6 months
[17:16] <p0s> not the content of the communication but the communication partners and the date&time
[17:16] <p0s> of emails, phone calls, cellphone calls and sms.
[17:17] <toad_> yeah, that's europe wide
[17:17] <toad_> data retention
[17:17] <p0s> exactly
[17:17] <toad_> some countries go beyond what is absolutely required by the directive
[17:18] <toad_> or is it a framework decision? the whatever-the-legal-instrument-was
[17:18] <p0s> our politicians say that we only implement the minimal requirements
[17:18] <p0s> what they don't say: they pushed the minimal requirements up in the EU parliament.
[17:18] <toad_> well then presumably they do only implement the minimum
[17:18] <toad_> well yeah :)
[17:18] <toad_> the EU is great, it lets you blame somebody else for doing what you wanted to do in the first place :)
[17:19] <p0s> exactly
[17:19] <toad_> in theory this is why we have MEPs ...
[17:19] <toad_> iirc the data retention thingy wasn't codecision though
[17:19] <toad_> or maybe they changed it half way through
[17:20] <p0s> it doesnt really matter, its does not conform to our german constitution.
[17:20] * toad_ was involved with ffii some years back, you can probably tell
[17:20] <p0s> unfortunately, the parliament didnt care.
[17:20] <toad_> it doesn't? why not?
[17:20] <Tommy[D]> any in germany the law does allow or make mandatory many more things then the EU wants
[17:21] <p0s> well according to my common sense it does not.
[17:21] <toad_> i mean it's not like they're retaining actual emails ..
[17:21] <p0s> we have some thing which is called... eh wait let me translate
[17:21] <toad_> in the UK it's fun, cos since 2000 we've had an act that lets the police issue their own surveillance warrants :)
[17:22] <toad_> and compel people to give up their crypto passwords
[17:22] <p0s> Tommy[D]: can you translate "fernmeldegeheimnis" ?
[17:22] <p0s> toad_: i've read about the crypto password law
[17:22] <Tommy[D]> a court which checks if something is against the constitution....it has much work nowadays as the polititions dont care about the constitution
[17:22] <toad_> and co-operate (at own cost) with surveillance, in eternal secrecy
[17:23] <toad_> Tommy[D]: well can they strike down stuff that is required by the EU?
[17:23] <p0s> ... oh well, our constitution clearly states that telecommuncation secrecy shall be kept.
[17:23] <p0s> and this should also cover the data retention
[17:23] <toad_> well yeah but it also says that property will be protected and crime will be prevented, doesn't it? :)
[17:23] <p0s> our "supreme court" has to decide now.
[17:23] <p0s> yea yea
[17:24] <p0s> ... toad_ i have read about the password law.
[17:24] <Tommy[D]> toad_, i am not sure, perhaps they will send it to the eu court, which already has to decide about irelands input
[17:24] <toad_> Tommy[D]: is there a substantive question there, or just some procedural nonsense?
[17:24] <toad_> Tommy[D]: i.e. are they actually questioning the legality under the ECHR of data retention?
[17:25] <p0s> this is COMPLETELY insane, and NOT because you can forget passwords or because you can't be forced to tell law enforcement things which prove that you did something criminal, let me explain:
[17:25] * toad_ hasn't followed this closely, i've always assumed the bad guys were watching
[17:25] <p0s> what is the definition of an ideal cipher?
[17:25] <p0s> its output seems completely random!
[17:25] <toad_> one where if you don't know the key it's impossible to get the plaintext
[17:25] <Tommy[D]> toad_, if i remember, ireland had former reasons why this data retention from the eu is illegal
[17:26] <toad_> right, that's a big part of it
[17:26] <p0s> therefore, if anyone manages to put store RANDOM data on your computer and give it a filename like "Truecrypt container with child pornography" you can be put in jail for years
[17:26] <toad_> Tommy[D]: on rights or on subsidiarity?
[17:26] <toad_> Tommy[D]: ECHR or ECJ?
[17:27] <Tommy[D]> toad_, sorry, but in this case i dont know enough enligsh to understand and write the right words :-/
[17:27] <p0s> so this law effictively forbids anyone to possess RANDOM data. i would have thought that we germans would be the first ones to make a law which forces people to have complete ORDER.
[17:27] <toad_> p0s: well they can always frame you ... you mean they can read whatever they like into your data? a real key is not a one-time-pad
[17:27] <toad_> Tommy[D]: which court is handling it?
[17:27] <p0s> toad_: i was only talking about block ciphers yet :)
[17:27] <p0s> the point is:
[17:28] <p0s> if someone puts random data on your harddisk
[17:28] <p0s> you won't be able to decrypt it!
[17:28] <p0s> because it IS random.
[17:28] <p0s> but your government can put you in jail because you cannot prove that it is random.
[17:28] <toad_> sure, and if they put cocaine in your car boot, you'll go to jail for posession of cocaine
[17:28] <ljn1981|away> <p0s> which says: all data about who had email/telephone/cellphone communication with whom and when has to be stored for 6 months
[17:28] <ljn1981|away> p0s: We have thT
[17:28] <toad_> does it include Subject line in emails?
[17:29] <ljn1981|away> p0s: We have that up here in Denmark.
[17:29] <p0s> toad_: but you cannot prevent having random data on your harddisk. i mean its pretty normal for modern software to do that.
[17:29] <toad_> p0s: is it?
[17:29] <p0s> actually EVERYONE has random data on his harddisk.
[17:29] <Tommy[D]> toad_, which courts are there?
[17:29] <p0s> toad_: well thing about the pagefile.
[17:30] <toad_> p0s: saying that the suspect has a steganographic partition is pretty lame if there's no evidence for it e.g. truecrypt isn't installed
[17:30] <toad_> p0s: of course, if you install truecrypt, you're obviously a bad guy!
[17:30] <p0s> what if he has truecrypt on an USB stick which he has hidden / eaten / whatever
[17:30] <p0s> the point is: this law is totally braindead because it forbids posessing random data :)
[17:30] <p0s> because you cannot decrypt it.
[17:30] <toad_> Tommy[D]: European Court of Justice (mostly procedural / states versus union), European Court of Human Rights (enforces the Convention, technically a council of europe body...)
[17:31] <p0s> the people who made this law are either facists or have no fuckin clue of cryptography at all :(
[17:31] <toad_> p0s: well, it relies on convincing a judge / jury, and *in theory* that requires evidence
[17:31] <p0s> the evidence will always be there unfortunately
[17:31] <p0s> ljn1981|away: also for 6 months?
[17:32] <toad_> it's forced self-incrimination, which is bad under US law, but we don't have a right to silence
[17:32] <p0s> toad_: actually, freenet is illegal. you cant decrypt your datastore, can you? :)
[17:32] <toad_> :)
[17:32] <toad_> not true by my interpretation
[17:32] <toad_> of course, i could be wrong
[17:32] <toad_> i don't have a passphrase ... because THERE ISN'T A PASSPHRASE
[17:33] <p0s> toad_: the point is, i also always thought "oh this is forced self incrimination, HOW STUPID can they be to make that a law"
[17:33] <toad_> i could tell you how to decrypt maybe 80% of this
[17:33] <p0s> but then it came to my mind that it is even more stupid because cryptographic output is always random data and you can never prove that it is not random if it is random.
[17:34] <p0s> this law is so braindead i cannot find any english words for it.
[17:34] <p0s> it's like the witch-test in middle age
[17:34] <toad_> :)
[17:34] <p0s> if she dies by drowning in water then she was no witch
[17:34] * toad_ worries more about arbitrary internment, TCPA and similar matters
[17:35] <p0s> if you cannot tell your password then you didnt posess illegal data, but then you'll have to stay in jail.
[17:35] <toad_> well, like i said, they have to have evidence. that would be for example a huge great file somewhere which truecrypt has set up as an encrypted drive, but which they don't have the password for
[17:36] <toad_> it doesn't seem a particularly useful or sane measure, but it's not my main worry
[17:36] <toad_> oh IPRED2 too, that might well make freenet illegal
[17:36] <p0s> then maybe someone should write a trojan to create a 1 GiB file with .TC extension on every british computer
[17:36] <toad_> officially it's about counterfeit (read "unlicensed", "generic", not necessarily dangerous) medicines; in reality it's about filesharing
[17:37] <p0s> omfg?
[17:37] <toad_> hmmm?
[17:37] <p0s> how did they manage to connect medicine and file sharing?
[17:37] <p0s> i didnt hear about that
[17:37] <toad_> counterfeiting :)
[17:37] <toad_> counterfeiting = violation of trade mark, patent, copyright
[17:37] <Tommy[D]> toad_, all i can read is "european court" EuGH....
[17:37] <p0s> ah
[17:38] <ljn1981|away> p0s: 6 or 12, I forgot.
[17:38] <toad_> IPRED2: illegal, criminal offence, serious sanctions including jail time, judicial winding up, legal aid bans etc, to: violate a trademark or copyright "intentionally on a commercial scale", or aid and abet, attempt, or incite such violation
[17:38] <ljn1981|away> p0s: In any case the ISPs got all pissy about having to pay for doing it themselves.
[17:39] <p0s> ljn1981|away: and when will the law be active?
[17:39] <toad_> so telling somebody to upload a copyrighted file to freenet might get you jail time; it might well be interpreted to criminalise *writing freenet*
[17:40] <toad_> or even running it
[17:40] <toad_> aiding and abetting ...
[17:40] <p0s> -.-
[17:40] <p0s> development should be hurried up :)
[17:40] <toad_> and "on a commercial scale" would likely apply to uploading copyrighted files; it might apply to downloading
[17:40] <toad_> so it is about filesharing
[17:40] <p0s> i said it some time ago: freenetproject.org should be hosted on freenet, too.
[17:40] <p0s> someone said that you need RSKs first
[17:40] <toad_> :)
[17:40] <toad_> well we do :)
[17:40] <ljn1981|away> <toad_> does it include Subject line in emails? ------- I'm not sure but I wouldn't put it past them.
[17:41] <toad_> but updates to freenet are deployed over freenet
[17:41] <toad_> and there's freemail, and frost, and a few anonymous contributors
[17:41] <toad_> and some steps towards version control over freenet (mercurial on freenet e.g.)
[17:41] <p0s> mmmh kay
[17:41] <p0s> btw, did you guys figure out whats up with frost since 1096?
[17:42] <toad_> an attack
[17:43] <p0s> oh?
[17:43] <p0s> who would do that?
[17:44] <toad_> maybe the same person who DoS's emu?
[17:44] <toad_> and who spams Frost?
[17:44] <p0s> weird.
[17:44] <ljn1981|away> TCPA is bad because it's going to work.
[17:44] <toad_> ljn1981|away: maybe
[17:44] <p0s> unfortunately i never used frost until i wanted to try it YESTERDAY
[17:45] <toad_> ljn1981|away: the software patents directive was gonna kill free software ... except we beat it
[17:45] <p0s> and now its running and i don't get any posts at all besides your new version announcements toad_
[17:45] <nextgens> toad_> I've got some logs I didn't take the time to look into
[17:45] * sashimi (n=sashimi@) has joined #freenet
[17:45] * sashimi (n=sashimi@) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:45] <nextgens> will find out who has started the ddos, hopefully :)
[17:45] <toad_> nextgens: :)
[17:45] <toad_> well it's just a botnet isn't it? i mean they're essentially anonymous unless there's an (illegal) counter-attack to trace them, you can buy them...
[17:46] <toad_> i thought you said it was 150 IPs?
[17:46] <nextgens> on a normal basis they are only 8 ips which access our rsync server
[17:46] <nextgens> I've got a timestamp of when the attack has started
[17:46] <p0s> how much is frost being used when it works?
[17:46] <toad_> yeah but it'll show up on a port scan
[17:46] <nextgens> and I can bet that they were attemps from unknown ips before that
[17:46] <toad_> p0s: fair amount, obviously there's a limited number of posters
[17:47] <nextgens> meaning that correlating logs I might find the guy :)
[17:47] <toad_> nextgens: right, so if they've not been careful...
[17:47] <ljn1981|away> <p0s> ljn1981|away: and when will the law be active? ---- It's been for months
[17:47] <p0s> toad_: sounds nice. does it work well, i.e. do the posts arrive "everywere" and fast?
[17:47] <p0s> ljn1981|away: ugh.
[17:47] * toad_ sets mode +v BraveHe
[17:47] <Tommy[D]> toad_, it should be this court: http://curia.europa.eu/en/transitpage.htm. of o read it right, the court of justice
[17:47] <BraveHe> hi
[17:47] <toad_> p0s: reasonably fast
[17:48] <toad_> p0s: it relies on polling KSKs, which sucks
[17:48] <p0s> mmh
[17:48] <toad_> but ULPRs will improve that, and hopefully we will later have a proper web of trust system
[17:48] <nextgens> http://stats.freenetproject.org/eth0_1d.png
[17:48] <nextgens> the main problem has been fixed
[17:48] <BraveHe> sorry but i'm not speak english very well
[17:48] <nextgens> but the bandwidth usage is still high
[17:48] <toad_> nextgens: ongoing attack?
[17:48] <BraveHe> i don't (seem better)
[17:49] <toad_> if it's just the bandwidth we can live with it
[17:49] <nextgens> toad_> we are still receiving occasionnal SYNs
[17:49] <nextgens> from unknown hosts
[17:49] <nextgens> brb
[17:49] <toad_> on the rsync port?
[17:49] <nextgens> yeah
[17:49] <toad_> but it doesn't make any difference
[17:49] <BraveHe> i've a doubt
[17:50] <toad_> BraveHe: hmmm?
[17:50] <p0s> are the default boards in frost the most active ones or are there some i should add manually?
[17:50] <p0s> (of course you cannot tell which ones are the most active ones ;)
[17:51] <BraveHe> by default freenet is configure to use openet, so, openet will grow up, what's the future of darknet then?
[17:51] <toad_> BraveHe: darknet won't happen unless we have lots of users
[17:51] <toad_> BraveHe: because true darknet = connect to people you know / your friends / people you trust
[17:52] <toad_> so we start off with opennet, and then add Friends
[17:52] <toad_> for more security, and hopefully other benefits
[17:52] <ljn1981|away> <toad_> but ULPRs will improve that, and hopefully we will later have a proper web of trust system ---- what are those? Something new to me'
[17:53] <toad_> rather than losing 75% of our users at the what-the-fsck-is-irc stage
[17:53] <toad_> ljn1981|away: http://wiki.freenetproject.org/UltraLightweightPassiveRequests
[17:53] <toad_> :)
[17:53] <BraveHe> toad_ ok, but theoretically they are different ways to access the same content
[17:54] <toad_> ULPRs: when a request fails, you subscribe to that key, and when it's found it's propagated to everyone who's asked for it
[17:54] <toad_> and in the meantime, we block requests for it for a while (unless it would be routed better) to improve efficiency
[17:54] <toad_> BraveHe: hmmm?
[17:54] <toad_> BraveHe: a hybrid network will work well
[17:55] <toad_> we hope
[17:55] <toad_> if it doesn't, we've got problems
[17:55] <ljn1981|away> toad_: Oooh shiny
[17:55] <toad_> yeah
[17:55] <toad_> i'm reluctant to do anything today cos i don't want to break the network before i leave for xmas
[17:55] <ljn1981|away> Probably a good call
[17:55] <toad_> :)
[17:55] <p0s> toad_: i am so glad that the development team has finally made the decision FOR opennet. my relationship to freenet was like that: i was totally impressed by freenet in the 0.5 times and couldnt wait for getting more bandwidth & diskspace to host a nice node. then suddenly there was 0.7 and darknet ONLY and i stopped using it because i was certain that it would die from not having any users because darknet is too difficult for most people.
[17:56] <BraveHe> perhaps, nodes with access to the tow nets should serve as a gateway ¿?
[17:56] <toad_> p0s: please do try to get some Friends when you can
[17:56] <p0s> toad_: of course i will.
[17:56] <toad_> BraveHe: yeah, it routes across both
[17:56] <toad_> p0s: aren't you xor?
[17:56] <toad_> p0s: if so, you can peer with me
[17:56] <p0s> toad_: yea.
[17:57] <p0s> i should change my nickname here to xor to unify it.
[17:57] <toad_> did we exchange noderefs?
[17:57] <BraveHe> toad_ really curious :)
[17:58] * p0s (n=1mn57@) Quit (Excess Flood)
[17:58] * p0s (n=1mn57@) has joined #freenet
[17:58] <toad_> BraveHe: routing doesn't see a difference
[17:58] <BraveHe> toad_ si like organize a disorder
[17:59] <toad_> BraveHe: hmm?
[17:59] <toad_> opennet actually probably gets better topology than darknet in practice
[17:59] <toad_> but otoh it has a lot more churn
[17:59] <toad_> and obviously far less secure
[17:59] <toad_> i just hope that by the time we're banned, They haven't imposed mandatory retention of data on UDP traffic flows ... if they have, we're fscked
[18:00] <toad_> because nobody will go pure darknet before that point :|
[18:00] <nextgens> rehi
[18:00] <toad_> nextgens: re
[18:00] <BraveHe> toad_ aham
[18:01] <Ratchet> do you guys know the netsukuku project? they will have some problems putting this up on a global basis, but the idea is nice :-)
[18:01] <Ratchet> http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/
[18:02] <toad_> is that redb3ard's project?
[18:02] <toad_> bbiab
[18:02] <Ratchet> basically, it's a internet wihtout internet, only put up thorugh small wireless routers
[18:02] <toad_> ahhh
[18:02] <toad_> right, well, good luck scaling that without either a) huge cost per client, or b) central infrastructure
[18:02] <Ratchet> so without the possibility to controll the traffic by the provider
[18:02] <toad_> what you really need is like 4 or 5 rooftop level directionals on each node
[18:03] <toad_> but that's expensive
[18:03] <Ratchet> the network topilogy and routing idea is quite nice
[18:03] <nextgens> and not likely to happen as you need skilled people to deploy it
[18:03] <Ratchet> no, it works via the linux routing table
[18:03] <toad_> nextgens: right, the riggers become single points of failure
[18:04] <Ratchet> it's a self organizing mehs network
[18:04] <Ratchet> mesh
[18:04] <Ratchet> with a fractal representation of ip spaces
[18:04] <toad_> Ratchet: i'm willing to believe you could make the software end easy to use, but a mesh network won't scale, you really need directionals, at least until we have really mastered multi-antenna technology
[18:04] <Ratchet> yeah
[18:04] <Ratchet> still the docs are a nice read
[18:05] <toad_> and since people move etc, that practically means using central infrastructure e.g. http://www.bristolwireless.net/
[18:05] <Ratchet> no, nothing central in their approach
[18:05] <toad_> unless somebody builds a nice platform box with internal, software movable antennas, and preferably solar powered
[18:06] <toad_> that might be interesting but expensive until you hit volume
[18:06] <Ratchet> http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/qspn.pdf
[18:06] <Ratchet> http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/topology.pdf
[18:06] <toad_> again, multiple antennas is probably the way forward
[18:07] <p0s> ... is it possible that accessing the freenet statistics page drags down the input/output bandwidth?
[18:07] <toad_> it shouldn't cost much bandwidth
[18:07] <toad_> unless you're doing it *all* the time
[18:07] <Ratchet> they break down more than the IPv6 address sapce into 1Kb data :-)
[18:07] <p0s> hehe. well then i guess its just jumpy.
[18:07] <Ratchet> 2^256 ips :-)
[18:07] <toad_> lol
[18:07] <Ratchet> read it, it's interesting ;-)
[18:07] <toad_> why?
[18:08] <toad_> i mean why do they need a 256 bit address?
[18:08] <Ratchet> because they can
[18:08] <toad_> easier routing, i suppose?
[18:08] <Ratchet> don't know
[18:09] <toad_> okay, so they have a new routing algorithm ... cool. how well does it scale?
[18:09] <Ratchet> they claim that it scales without problems
[18:09] <toad_> not if it uses omni's..
[18:09] <Ratchet> they use a fractal structure
[18:09] * nextgens is trying to understand https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=1958 ... why does it need 30sec to get to next step ?
[18:09] <toad_> well maybe if most of them are at ground level, but you'd need an immense density for that to work
[18:10] <nextgens> any idea before I close it "can't reproduce, windows issue; reboot!" ?
[18:10] <toad_> nextgens: it is rather bizarre, isn't it?
[18:10] <toad_> we used to get that sort of thing when we set bad timeouts
[18:11] * kobbay (n=kob@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[18:11] <toad_> somewhere we must set a 30 second timeout, maybe that's not enough
[18:11] <Ratchet> toad_: i can't express the ideas of them adequately in tech terms. but if you have a calm hour around christmas, read the two pdfs. it's worth it :-)
[18:11] <nextgens> that's enough, c'mon
[18:11] <nextgens> we don't do much before we start the StartupToadlet
[18:12] <toad_> yeah..
[18:12] * p0s gives freenet another 5 kb/s more bandwidth for christmas
[18:12] <p0s> :)
[18:12] <toad_> i dunno, the traditional off site debugging approach is to send them a jar with a lot more logging
[18:12] <nextgens> we instanciate yarrow, create the dh-precalc threads,
[18:12] <toad_> did you try that?
[18:12] <nextgens> plugins
[18:12] <nextgens> and that's it
[18:12] <toad_> plugins are loaded off thread aren't they?
[18:13] <nextgens> they are iirc
[18:13] <toad_> okay
[18:13] <toad_> so add some System.err.println's
[18:13] <toad_> and see what it's doing when it dies
[18:13] <toad_> in the past the most common thing was accidentally setTimeout to 0 or negative
[18:13] <nextgens> here the wrapper waits for 30sec
[18:14] <toad_> alternatively, if it's actually hung, i suggest getting a stack trace during that period
[18:14] <toad_> how you do that on windows ... is a PITA
[18:15] <TheSeeker> If we could make freenet 1.5 instead of 1.4 then it'd be easy :P
[18:15] <nextgens> :/
[18:15] <toad_> Ratchet: in conclusion, we will need guerilla networking in the long run, and darknet is imho a key part of the infrastructure we will need to support it properly. i expect some transports to be much slower than wifi.
[18:15] <nextgens> TheSeeker> what are you refering to ?
[18:15] <TheSeeker> getting stack traces.
[18:15] <toad_> TheSeeker: no, we have the ability to get a stack dump already, through the wrapper
[18:16] <toad_> Ratchet: or faster but with crazy latency
[18:16] <toad_> Ratchet: e.g. shifting boxes of DVDs around :)
[18:16] <nextgens> binary-blobs over dvd :D
[18:16] <TheSeeker> toad_: yeah, by killing the process. 1.5 has integrated tools for getting a live stack trace without killing anything... WITHOUT a wrapper.
[18:17] <nextgens> no, you can tell the wrapper through a socket
[18:17] <toad_> nextgens: I'd prefer not to close the issue without trying the two mentioned strategies, since he actually created an account; we have contact info for it
[18:17] <toad_> s/it/him
[18:17] <nextgens> ok
[18:17] * kobbay (n=kob@) has joined #freenet
[18:17] <toad_> nextgens: if you consider it to be annoying and boring, you can wait for me to get around to it
[18:18] <nextgens> :)
[18:18] <toad_> i'll comment on the bug anyway
[18:18] <toad_> maybe he'll read it
[18:19] <p0s> .... i am getting quite pissed. i live in a village of 1500 people. and i cannot access freenetproject.org and a dude in the SAME VILLAGE i've just asked who has the SAME isp CAN access it
[18:19] <p0s> maybe it's really the government? xD
[18:19] <BraveHe> oow, i've an error downloading an archive: Archive too big, It is about 70MB
[18:20] <Ratchet> BraveHe: does the CHK@... have the filename twice at the end?
[18:20] <toad_> p0s: and the same goes for torproject.org
[18:20] <toad_> p0s: note the connection? *is it your PC?*
[18:20] <BraveHe> yes
[18:20] <toad_> if it's somebody else's PC they may have installed a netnanny, which might well block both
[18:20] <BraveHe> toad_ yes
[18:20] <Ratchet> BraveHe: remove one of it, then it works
[18:21] <p0s> its my damn freaking NETWORK :)
[18:21] <p0s> i got root :D
[18:21] <toad_> on the router also?
[18:21] <p0s> yes
[18:21] <BraveHe> toad_ thanks
[18:21] <toad_> does the router have any such nonsense?
[18:21] <p0s> the router is a debian box which i've configured manually 3 years ago. its totally stable.
[18:21] <nextgens> Ratchet> is there a bug filled in for that one ?
[18:21] <toad_> then i've got no idea..
[18:22] <toad_> can you install Tor without visiting torproject.org ?
[18:22] <nextgens> toad_> apt-get install tor ?
[18:22] <p0s> might be on sourceforge
[18:22] <toad_> or debian
[18:22] <Ratchet> nextgens: i don't know, Ii'll have a look
[18:22] <p0s> does SVN work over TOR?
[18:23]
