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[2:41] <lordcaine> there is one thing I dont understand... if opennet uses a central repository of references, why is it necessary for bots to trade in them?
[2:46] <Bombe> We do not yet have a central repository for opennet references. Hence the bots.
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[2:59] <lordcaine> ahh ok. I misunderstood. I thought that was the primary difference. So the real primary difference is that opennet is promiscuous all the time instead of by toggle?
[3:03] <lordcaine> there are some contradictions in interpretation being expressed in -refs, I'm just trying to straighten out the real answers in the appropriate channel :)
[3:04] <lordcaine> my understanding was also that opennet is the "old" protocol, version .5 and earlier and darknet is the "new" protocol, after .5, but that there are plans to potentially implement both in future versions. Is this correct?
[3:05] <Bombe> Not quite.
[3:05] <Bombe> 0.5 was opennet-only.
[3:05] <Bombe> 0.7 started as darknet-only but recently gained opennet functionality.
[3:05] <lordcaine> so the promiscuous toggle is actually a darknet/opennet toggle?
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[3:06] <Bombe> Opennet is promiscous, by definition. :)
[3:06] <Bombe> But you can choose to deactivate opennet on your node.
[3:06] <ramonesdude> anyone trading refs_
[3:08] <lordcaine> Bombe thanks :) much clearer now :)
[3:08] <Bombe> No problem.
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[11:30] <sashimi> hello everybody
[11:32] <sashimi> I'm installing freenet and trying to make refbot work
[11:33] <sashimi> but I get an exit status 1 because I "need to enable opennet"
[11:33] <sashimi> what the heck is this ?
[11:34] <Ratchet> you configured your bot to exchange opnnet refs and your node runs in darknet mode
[11:35] <sashimi> I just enabled "Opennet" mode in my configuration page of my 127.0.0.1:8888
[11:35] <sashimi> but now refbot is telling me:
[11:35] <sashimi> 20071120-122929: Checking syntax of advertised opennet ref...
[11:35] <sashimi> 20071120-122929: ***
[11:35] <sashimi> 20071120-122929: *** ERROR: The bot advertised opennet ref is really a darknet ref; perhaps you've got your ref URLs mixed up?
[11:35] <sashimi> 20071120-122929: ***
[11:36] <sashimi> (hope pasting here is not a problem...)
[11:36] <sashimi> i am really quite new to freenet, so darknet, opennet, and so one..... I don't really get it atm
[11:36] <sashimi> :°/
[11:37] <sashimi> Ratchet, any advice/help to give out ? :p
[11:37] <saces> please use a pastebin for more lines and post the link.
[11:39] <saces> the bot excange refs this someone else.
[11:39] <saces> but friends (darknet peers) should be peers that you know and trust.
[11:40] <Ratchet> sashimi: sorry, can't tell you more than the bot
[11:42] <Cooo> sashimi: Opennet and darknet uses 2 different refs. You probably copied the ref from the friends page. Use the one from the untruster peers page instead.
[11:43] <sashimi> don't have anyfriends
[11:44] <sashimi> I copied the stuff from my 127.0.0.1:888/friends to dark-code to get ther URL?raw that i was to copy back to refbot
[11:45] <Cooo> that one is a darknet ref.
[11:45] <Cooo> and from the error you posted above it seems to me that you need your opennet ref which can be found on the strangers page.
[12:08] <HarryR> is there a way to password protect the freenet page instead of restriction per-ip ?
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[12:10] <Cooo> HarryR : Not that I know of.
[12:11] <HarryR> hrm, can you give use-only access (e.g. not allowing admin access) to any ip address?
[12:11] <HarryR> surely the best plausable deniability is to connect to anybody and let anybody access?
[12:17] <sashimi> sorry for the stupid question, but I saw that my node reference's "sig=" field changed once I added a peer
[12:18] <sashimi> is that normal ?
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[12:22] <Nogaso> sashimi: if your location changed it is
[12:23] <sashimi> location changed ?!
[12:23] <sashimi> no, I haven't changed location at all, I'm still connected from the same spot in the same room XD
[12:24] <Nogaso> in your ref it says "location=<number>"...
[12:24] <sashimi> yes
[12:25] <Nogaso> thats you 'Freenet location'
[12:25] <sashimi> yep, but it hasn't changed since when I copied my ref to bulix
[12:27] <sashimi> when I haded my first trusted ref from what a bot gave me on #freenet-refs, the sig of my node reference changed
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[12:28] * sashimi starting all over again...
[12:28] <sashimi> it's getting tiresome
[12:28] <Ratchet> the ref changes over time. you still can use the old bulix link
[12:29] <Ratchet> the new version ist distributed over the network
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[12:30] <sashimi> Ratchet, ok, good to know.:)
[12:30] <sashimi> so
[12:30] <sashimi> if i have freenet on a laptop
[12:31] <sashimi> will it take ages to connect if i connect from different places in the world ?
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[12:34] <Nogaso> might take some time (or never connect at all) as your IP would change
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[13:31] <sashimi> hi again
[13:32] <sashimi> up at last :D
[13:32] <sashimi> just wanted to say hi ^^
[13:32] <Nogaso> hi :)
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[13:55] <sleon> ls
[14:00] <sashimi> sleon, wrong window :D
[14:00] <Zothar_Work> -irc: ls: command not found
[14:00] <Zothar_Work> (slow OS)
[14:00] <sashimi> Zothar_Work, very XD
[14:00] <Zothar_Work> but with a load average in the thousands, what can one expect...
[14:01] <sashimi> has someone tried running some sort of irc over freenet XD ?
[14:01] <sashimi> must take aaaaaaaaages
[14:02] <sashimi> being new to freenet, i'm trying out frost. I suppose to get the boards listed i just have to let frost running for hours ?
[14:05] <sleon> sashimi: :)
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[14:11] <dbkr> freenet is a data store, so IRC would be kind of silly
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[14:53] <Bombe> dbkr, a chat system wouldn't be silly, it would rock. :)
[14:53] <dbkr> hehe
[14:55] <saces> compared to get-a-reply-time on irc (happens sometimes) freenet-chat will be "realtime" ;)
[14:59] <Bombe> *g*
[15:00] <Bombe> Well, small inserts takes about 30 seconds here... that would allow a-kind-of realtime communication. :)
[15:00] <dbkr> during which everyone else would answer the same question ;)
[15:00] <Bombe> Might be.
[15:01] <saces> can happens here to..
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[15:02] <dbkr> I've never seen it happen
[15:04] <toad_> :)
[15:04] <toad_> wait for 0.8, true passive requests
[15:05] <toad_> maybe even with 0.7 and ULPRs
[15:11] <Ratchet> how about improvements on this anonymity thingy freenet is all about? or do passive requests improve anonymity?
[15:12] <saces> PR reduce network load significantly
[15:14] <Ratchet> do you developers think that freenet has reached it's maximum in anonymity? or will there be some major enhancement in the near future?
[15:14] <Ratchet> just curious
[15:15] <sleon> Ratchet: did you find a backdor? ;)
[15:15] <dbkr> nextgens: you've got mail (another FReemail build.xml patch)
[15:15] <sleon> s/backdor/backdoor/
[15:15] <Ratchet> no, but the startup log stays, that it's easy to attack with correlation attacks
[15:15] <dbkr> Ratchet: well prerouting will give more security against your immediate peers
[15:16] <dbkr> that's on the to-do list
[15:16] <Ratchet> so i wondered why so many new features get implemented when the main reason of freenet is anonymity
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[15:16] <hramrach> Hello
[15:16] <hramrach> Looks like my database keeps shrinking on every startup
[15:16] <Ratchet> I mean, bookmarks with active links are nice, but strong anonymity is way nicer :-)
[15:17] <Bombe> Ratchet, send a patch. :)
[15:17] <hramrach> INFO | jvm 1 | 2007/11/20 16:08:41 | Opened block number database for chk-store-
[15:17] <sleon> heh
[15:17] <hramrach> INFO | jvm 1 | 2007/11/20 16:08:41 | Keys in store: db 320302 file 320204 / max 15344
[15:17] <Ratchet> as I said, I'm just curious :-)
[15:17] <hramrach> INFO | jvm 1 | 2007/11/20 16:08:41 | More keys in database than in store!
[15:17] <hramrach> INFO | jvm 1 | 2007/11/20 16:08:42 | Shrinking from 320302 to 15344 (from db 302913 from file 320204)
[15:17] <Bombe> Ratchet, the problem with premix routing is that you can't simply sit down and implement it in two days.
[15:17] <Ratchet> I play around with freenet since build fivehundred something... but has anonymity really improved since then?
[15:18] <Ratchet> I didn't say it's easy :-)
[15:18] <Bombe> Stop not saying anything and say something. :)
[15:19] <Ratchet> ok: why don't you work on better anonymity instead of new features?
[15:20] <Bombe> I have no idea. I could take a couple of guesses, though.
[15:22] <Zothar_Work> because if the infrastructure needs help, it's more efficient to fix it before adding more complexity
[15:22] <Zothar_Work> the bookmark thing was low hanging fruit that interested a developer, so it got attention
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[15:24] <Ratchet> ah, that's an informative statement (first improving infrastructure). but do you know some timewindow when you will work on anonymity?
[15:24] <Ratchet> I don't want to complain. freenet really got forward in the last years
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[15:46] <Zothar_Work> Ratchet: it'll happen when it happens. This is an open source project with only one person who is not doing it just because it's interesting. On top of that, complex is not easy; timelines usually just get broken when the problem is not necessarily even completely solved theoretically
[15:48] <Ratchet> no offence meant. i just wondered
[15:52] <toad_> there is another answer: long term, passive requests will be a key part of our long-term requests infrastructure, which will be vital for using non-realtime steganographic or out of band transports.
[15:53] <toad_> Ratchet: security has vastly improved, if you use it correctly. see "darknet"
[15:54] * FrinkC|off is now known as FrinkC
[15:55] <toad_> Ratchet: right now opennet is the priority. that's good for ease of use/installation and good for network topology/performance/routing, not so good for anonymity (but not bad for anonymity really, relative to #freenet-refs)
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[15:55] <toad_> other stuff gets done if it's easy or urgent
[15:56] <toad_> but premix routing isn't likely to happen before 0.7.0
[15:56] <Ratchet> aah, that's the information i was looking for. thanks :-)
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[15:57] <toad_> Ratchet: if there are only 3 users then you have no security :)
[15:57] <toad_> Ratchet: opennet is good for getting more users
[15:57] <toad_> and therefore, on some levels, more security
[15:59] <Ratchet> I see
[15:59] <toad_> having said all this, from time to time i have considered implementing premix routing in the nearer term ...
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[15:59] <toad_> it might happen
[15:59] <toad_> we'll see
[15:59] <nextgens> *huh*
[15:59] <nextgens> ulprs are much more important from my pov
[16:00] <toad_> oh? why?
[16:00] <toad_> you really think polling is THAT much of a load?
[16:00] <nextgens> because that would improve "apparent speed"
[16:00] <toad_> ah
[16:00] <nextgens> and enable fcp app writers to do some fancy things
[16:01] <toad_> well irc over freenet would be nice yeah but might need real passive requests
[16:01] <nextgens> whereas premix routing is likely to slow things down
[16:01] <toad_> what do we need speed for? i thought you didn't care about (l)users? :)
[16:02] * nextgens is asking a staffer for irc-cloacks; did I promise one to someone I forgot ?
[16:02] <nextgens> toad_> contrary to what most think, I'm using thaw and frost too ;)
[16:03] <toad_> frost is remarkably fast lately for me
[16:05] <toad_> it would improve message round trip of course .. does tha matter?
[16:06] <nextgens> Bombe was planning to implement some kind of instant messenging
[16:06] <nextgens> that would help
[16:06] <nextgens> and well, I'm sure that it's a requirement to any "working" WoT
[16:06] <toad_> ok that's true
[16:07] <toad_> Ratchet: as you can see there's 1000 things on the todo list, some of which are rather convoluted
[16:07] <Ratchet> If you first attrakt the big userbase before you have anonymity, you will pull the attention of attackers to the network. and then the users will get busted because of low anonymity which will drive them away.
[16:08] <toad_> Ratchet: background: WoT is part of the solution to spam on frost. right now, frost can be taken down (spammed to hell) rather easily.
[16:08] <Ratchet> just a theory :-)
[16:08] <toad_> Ratchet: well, anonymity right now depends largely on who you connect to
[16:08] <Ratchet> yes, I know. I really like the darknet concept
[16:08] <toad_> if you use opennet, you're fairly vulnerable; if you only connect to your friends, you're unlikely to get busted by anyone
[16:10] <toad_> now of course, i could have been served with an RIPA intercept notice ... and i'd not be able to tell you... :)
[16:10] <Ratchet> I have a small darknet with a few friends set up. completeley seperated from the main network. works really well
[16:11] <toad_> really? i thought there were performance issues with small darknets...
[16:11] * nextgens gtg
[16:11] <Ratchet> for some frosting it suffices :-)
[16:11] <nextgens> bbiab
[16:11] <toad_> cya
[16:12] <toad_> what i'm working on now (or will be today): automatic port forward detection
[16:12] <toad_> this is good because:
[16:12] <toad_> 1. get rid of annoying messages
[16:12] <toad_> 2. allow for more useful/easier darknet invites.
[16:12] <toad_> 3. allow for opennet seednodes
[16:17] <Ratchet> I really have to dive deeper into the technics behind freenet. Until now I was content with the use of it. But it's difficult to discuss on a more serious level without having a clue what's going on ;-)
[16:17] <toad_> :)
[16:18] <toad_> IMHO the most important thing w.r.t. security on freenet right now - apart from obvious breaches like the weak keys bug we fixed recently - is getting more people onto true darknet. that means opennet (paradoxically), it means invites, it means stuff that makes freenet easier to use and faster
[16:20] <toad_> because the more people are on freenet the more likely it is you'll be able to connect to somebody you know
[16:20] <toad_> good content is also a positive feedback mechanism
[16:20] <toad_> Ratchet: http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/ - dive right in :)
[16:21] <toad_> actually check it out from here: http://freenet.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
[16:21] <toad_> there's a fair amount of docs on the wiki
[16:21] <toad_> e.g. http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetZeroPointSevenSecurity http://wiki.freenetproject.org/PremixRouting http://wiki.freenetproject.org/PassiveRequests
[16:21] <toad_> etc
[16:22] <toad_> http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetSourceGuide
[16:23] <toad_> there's a number of good links towards the bottom of http://wiki.freenetproject.org/HomePage
[16:25] <Ratchet> oh, great! documentation! thanks :-)
[16:25] <Ratchet> ut it's ages ago when i coded java ;-)
[16:25] <Ratchet> s/ut/but/
[16:26] <toad_> java's easy
[16:27] <toad_> also you get free noderefs to some of the developers if you get coding :)
[16:27] <Ratchet> but the theory will be interesting, too, for the first step
[16:27] <Ratchet> :-)
[16:27] <toad_> so you can connect your darknet to our semi-darknet :)
[16:27] <Ratchet> nice
[16:27] <toad_> some = me, at least
[16:27] <saces> toad_: a side effect of the new fcpplugin api: it can be expanded for plugin to plugin talking.
[16:27] <toad_> saces: ooooh
[16:28] <toad_> saces: shouldn't that happen through internal interfaces?
[16:28] <toad_> would it actually go over an FCP socket, or can it be all inside the VM?
[16:29] <saces> the p2p would go via direct calls.
[16:29] <toad_> cool
[16:30] <toad_> the next major task for the plugin API is mandatory versioning
[16:30] <toad_> so we can do update over freenet properly (and long term, p2p dependancies)
[16:30] <toad_> and when i say major, it's trivial really, just add a method to FredPlugin and co-ordinate with nextgens w.r.t. embargoing the rebuilds
[16:31] <toad_> but it has to be done for EVERY plugin
[16:31] <toad_> including out of tree ones
[16:31] <toad_> ideally we'd set up the build process on emu so they know their SVN numbers, like Version.java does ... talk to nextgens about that if you go down that road
[16:31] <toad_> just a thought
[16:32] <toad_> you probably would want to put in getShortName() / getDescription() / getAuthor() or something like that at the same time
[16:33] <toad_> well we'd need to think about it a little
[16:33] <toad_> best to do all at once and minimise the number of catastrophic API changes
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[16:34] <Bombe> toad, speaking of noderefs, I don't have yours. :)
[16:35] <saces> simply a new interface "FredPluginExtendedInfo"?. if it is implemented, the plugin supports versioning and info stuff.
[16:40] * Mc2`_ is now known as Mc2`
[16:40] <nextgens> rehi
[16:41] <nextgens> the guys I wanted to see are on strike
[16:41] <nextgens> ...
[16:44] <toad_> saces: yeah but it ought to be mandatory...
[16:45] <toad_> saces: at the very least a simple build number and an SVN revision number should be mandatory
[16:47] <nextgens> yeah, we need to introduce versionning somehow
[16:49] <nextgens> we need to talk about "when to enable mandatory dda"
[16:51] <nextgens> hmm
[16:51] <nextgens> the frost spammer is reinserting old messages now
[16:51] <nextgens> missformated messages
[16:52] * nextgens bet that it's not the same one
[16:54] <saces> fixes for a few of them are in cvs.
[17:04] <toad_> missformatted messages??
[17:04] * bwpow (n=miraculu@) Quit ("Prisiel som, videl som, hmmm")
[17:04] <saces> yes.
[17:04] <toad_> nextgens: what are the arguments for not enabling mandatory DDA? is there any Good Reason not to?
[17:04] <toad_> if they are misformatted, they won't be visible?
[17:05] <saces> rejected as "invalid".
[17:07] <nextgens> well, the spammer will figureout soon enough how to make them look valid
[17:07] <nextgens> toad_> are all clients dda-capable ?
[17:07] <nextgens> toad_> afaic pyfreenet isn't
[17:08] <toad_> with full fallback support? i dunnio
[17:12] <Zothar_Work> pyFreenet has some support, but not completely; OTOH, I'm not sure it tries to use DDA by default either
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[20:47] <saces> do we really need an (limiting) interface to allow talking between plugins?
[20:48] <saces> do an findPlugin(plugname), cast it to the right type and then use it unlimited...
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[21:06] <Zothar_Work> yes, we need a limiting API for abstraction and likely security purposes; I know we need one between the plugin and Fred and it seems logical to be similar between plugins
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[21:17] <saces> between fred<->plugin it is the plugin respinator, between plugin<->fcp-client the plugin needs to implement FredPluginFCP
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[21:28] <AnotherNodeNick> peers 1075, svn produces 1073, huh???
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[21:55] * rmt2 hmms, wonders whether toad's around, scratches himself, and ponders why noone has come up with an easily cachable p2p protocol yet, which also incorporates client-side plausible-deniability caching.
[21:56] <rmt2> ISPs love caching. Most don't care about the legality if it saves them $. Caches are legal in most countries.
[21:59] <rmt2> P2P users sharing copyrighted material weigh risks and benefits.. risk is lawsuit. benefit is free content. one can mitigate risk with plausible deniability through random caching and uploading (or maybe forwarding of) data.
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[22:03] <rmt2> Naja.. sleeptime.
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[22:54] [freenode-connect VERSION]
Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
These logs were automatically created by FreenetLogBot on chat.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.