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[8:50] <entropyneg> at what point does 'temp' become 'persistent-temp'?
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[10:07] <toad_> please could some folk test trunk? it has some interesting fixes and I'd like to deploy it soon
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[10:32] <toad_> aha a deadlock :|
[10:50] <toad_> brb
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[11:06] <vivee> morning
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[11:59] <toad_> morning vive
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[12:45] <toad_> okay so immediate TODO:
[12:45] <toad_> - investigate large freesite / large split index borkage
[12:46] <toad_> - release 1063 (trunk testers needed!)
[12:46] <toad_> - opennet reconnect-after-downtime
[12:46] * Zothar_Work updates
[12:52] <nextgens> toad_> has the large freesite problem been confirmed ?
[12:55] <Zothar_Work> toad_: I've written some code to validate hostnames, IPv4 and IPv6 IP addresses used in physical.udp; my motivation was repeated DNS requests for malformed, and thus never resolving, hostnames (a couple of IP addresses separated by a comma in this case); what do you think?
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[13:13] <vivee> toad_: cool, what is meant with reconnect-after-downtime?
[13:14] <toad_> nextgens: well, it comes up when people insert large indexes
[13:14] <toad_> i'm trying to reproduce it locally
[13:14] <toad_> Zothar_Work: what if they are temporarily unavailable?
[13:15] <Zothar_Work> toad_: it's syntax-based validation; DNS lookups are not part of the validation test
[13:17] <toad_> hmmm ok for example...?
[13:27] <Zothar_Work> fn4.xzwq.net is valid; fn4,xzwq,net is not
[13:27] <Zothar_Work> 10.0.0.1 is valid 10.0.0.0.1 is not
[13:27] <Zothar_Work> that short of thing
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[14:08] <toad_> Zothar_Work: ah ok
[14:08] <toad_> Zothar_Work: fine by me
[14:09] <toad_> Zothar_Work: it should be IPv6 compatible
[14:09] <toad_> Zothar_Work: also it should be localised-domain-names compatible
[14:10] <Zothar_Work> toad_: it is; had to add support for %<scope-id> to make it work with IPv6 IP addresses; I'll have to check on localised domain names though
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[15:16] <bootstrap1234023> why are all my stranger nodes disconnected?
[15:17] <toad_> good question
[15:17] <toad_> do you have any friend nodes?
[15:17] <bootstrap1234023> no
[15:17] <bootstrap1234023> but i think prom mode is working
[15:20] <toad_> hmmm
[15:20] <toad_> well if you have no peers of either kind then your node won't work well :|
[15:21] <toad_> well, you have peers, just they're not connected, right?
[15:21] <toad_> in the strangers part?
[15:21] <bootstrap1234023> but ive added strangers manually
[15:21] <toad_> and no friend peers at all?
[15:21] <bootstrap1234023> nope
[15:21] <bootstrap1234023> its a quite fresh node
[15:21] <toad_> hmmm
[15:21] <toad_> did they add you?
[15:22] <bootstrap1234023> yep
[15:22] <toad_> have you ever had a connection of any kind?
[15:22] <bootstrap1234023> but all seem to disconnect after a while
[15:22] <bootstrap1234023> yes it worked this night
[15:22] <bootstrap1234023> but somehow i became disconnected
[15:23] <toad_> hmmm
[15:23] <bootstrap1234023> perhaps ive been offline for a while during the night
[15:23] <toad_> was the node down for a while?
[15:23] <bootstrap1234023> but ive added nodes since then
[15:23] <toad_> if you've been offline for more than 5 minutes your stranger peers may have dropped you
[15:23] <toad_> did the new nodes connect?
[15:23] <bootstrap1234023> 5 min? thats a reallly short time for a alpha net
[15:24] <bootstrap1234023> all of them yes
[15:24] <toad_> yeah, we're working on it
[15:24] <toad_> okay, so was there any downtime since you added the new nodes?
[15:24] <bootstrap1234023> ;-) there arent like a million users
[15:25] <bootstrap1234023> i think so, we have had some connection problems nighttime
[15:25] <toad_> hmmm
[15:25] * toad_ suggests you add some more, and get back to me ..
[15:25] <bootstrap1234023> "old" freenet worked after some days
[15:25] <toad_> sorry :|
[15:25] <bootstrap1234023> ok ill try adding some more strangers then
[15:27] <bootstrap1234023> i have 18 disconnected nodes btw
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[16:14] <toad_> please test trunk...
[16:17] <bootstrap1234023> running update.cmd
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[16:32] <bootstrap1234023> lots of builds here...
[16:38] <toad_> update.cmd testing to try out trunk
[16:38] <toad_> did you get some connections?
[16:41] <bootstrap1234023> ok ill update...
[16:41] * toad_ changes topic to 'http://freenetproject.org/download.html (1063 mandatory soon), please read that page before asking for help here. To exchange references, join #freenet-refs | http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | logs: http://emu.freenetproject.org/irc/ | Tor blocked due to spam (get an op to voice you) | #freenet-fr #freenet-se #freenet-es #freenet-it #freenet-de | paste at http://code.bulix.org".'
[16:41] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: doesn't matter now, 1063 is out...
[16:44] <bootstrap1234023> shutdown didnt work did it manually
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[16:52] <Tommy[D]> hi toad_, again a double version bump as always? :)
[16:55] <toad_> :)
[16:56] <bootstrap1234023> is the opennet node deletion less aggressive now with the new version?
[16:57] <toad_> no, but gathering new opennet nodes may be a bit faster
[16:58] <toad_> therefore once you have them you have a better chance of staying on opennet
[16:58] <bootstrap1234023> ok hope it works better :-)
[17:02] <bootstrap1234023> will my recently added stranger nodes reconnect me to the disconnected peers?
[17:04] <bootstrap1234023> i mean those which deleted my ref (5 min limit)
[17:05] <toad_> not directly
[17:06] <bootstrap1234023> no! the sole peer disconnected as well!
[17:07] <bootstrap1234023> but its a 1062 node of course
[17:07] <Tommy[D]> bootstrap1234023, did you try the refbot, at least for opennet?
[17:07] <bootstrap1234023> running it now
[17:07] <bootstrap1234023> opennet only atm
[17:09] <Caco_Patane> what's the last index updated???
[17:26] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: get a whole bunch of nodes, and do some requests
[17:27] * toad_ changes topic to 'http://freenetproject.org/download.html (1064 mandatory soon), please read that page before asking for help here. To exchange references, join #freenet-refs | http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | logs: http://emu.freenetproject.org/irc/ | Tor blocked due to spam (get an op to voice you) | #freenet-fr #freenet-se #freenet-es #freenet-it #freenet-de | paste at http://code.bulix.org'
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[17:41] <brwyatt> hey
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[18:19] <azzzadude> how ppl share files on freenet?
[18:27] <Tommy[D]> they upload them and after that share the key for the files, frost boards are a good way to do this
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[18:28] <PrototypeX29A> hi
[18:31] <bootstrap1234023> i still have the problem with disconnecting "strangers" - is opennet only working with "friends"?
[18:33] <azzzadude> this freenet is very complicated
[18:33] <toad_> even with a bot? that's very strange
[18:33] <toad_> your node must be exceptionally poor at serving requests, or something...
[18:33] <toad_> azzzadude: could you be more specific?
[18:34] <toad_> azzzadude: have you tried 1) Thaw, 2) Frost, 3) the web interface ?
[18:34] <azzzadude> why ppl should trade nodes
[18:34] <azzzadude> ?
[18:34] <azzzadude> the main software must handle this
[18:34] <toad_> at the moment, because we haven't written the code to make it fully automatic
[18:34] <toad_> in future, because if you trade refs *with your friends*, it's far more secure
[18:35] <toad_> we're working on it, sorry
[18:35] <azzzadude> why friends
[18:35] <azzzadude> ?
[18:35] <bootstrap1234023> because its secure
[18:35] <azzzadude> in filesharing world
[18:35] <toad_> because it's more secure
[18:35] <toad_> they're much less likely to be agents of a hostile power
[18:35] <azzzadude> hehe
[18:35] <azzzadude> you are right
[18:35] <bootstrap1234023> but its not always fun to talk about freenet with friends :-P
[18:36] <azzzadude> how old is this project?
[18:36] <toad_> especially as on opennet (automatic ref exchanging), there are many more possibilities for a bad guy to connect to you after you've installed the node
[18:36] <toad_> whereas on darknet (manual ref exchanging with your friends), you only get new connections when you add them yourself
[18:36] <toad_> old, but it's been rewritten a zillion times :)
[18:37] <toad_> 0.7 introduces some major new features e.g. darknet ("Friends")
[18:37] <azzzadude> how many files it is sharing right now?
[18:37] <bootstrap1234023> it has its own load balancing as well, which is quite rare
[18:37] <toad_> we don't know
[18:37] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: that's a very hard problem :|
[18:38] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: our load balancing will continue to be worked on until the end of time :|
[18:38] <bootstrap1234023> probably but freenets fast
[18:38] * toad_ boggles ... it is?
[18:38] <bootstrap1234023> remember 0.5 etc
[18:38] <azzzadude> who many users are connecting to it everyday?
[18:38] <azzzadude> avrage?
[18:38] <toad_> it's pretty small at the moment
[18:39] <toad_> estimate hundreds to thousands
[18:39] <toad_> we don't know because it's anonymous
[18:39] <bootstrap1234023> many users join but not so many remain
[18:39] <toad_> we're not supposed to be able to get an accurate figure
[18:39] <azzzadude> because its realy complicated
[18:39] <toad_> probably on the order of 500 or s
[18:39] <toad_> so
[18:39] <toad_> azzzadude: well, congrats on working out how to use an IRC client, many people don't get that far ... :|
[18:40] <bootstrap1234023> hm perhaps because there arent any simple ones looking like msn messenger
[18:40] <azzzadude> i have connected to 3 nodes
[18:40] <toad_> it really isn't that complicated, but we are working on improving it
[18:40] <toad_> azzzadude: Strangers or Friends ?
[18:40] <azzzadude> i searcehd for madonna term which is very popular
[18:41] <azzzadude> and i gave me just 1 result
[18:41] <azzzadude> in frost program
[18:41] <azzzadude> friends
[18:41] <toad_> azzzadude: please do not mention copyrighted works here. please do not try to download copyrighted works from freenet or upload them to freenet. we cannot support you if you do as per Grokster vs Universal et al
[18:41] <toad_> we're all traceable on the IRC channel
[18:41] <PrototypeX29A> i guess "madonna" means pictures of the mother of god
[18:42] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: that's why I didn't kick him yet :)
[18:42] <toad_> azzzadude: it's not napster/kazaa. it won't be that big for a very long time and its core functionality / market is a little different.
[18:43] <PrototypeX29A> toad_: yeah, you shouldn kick someone because he is a catholic
[18:43] <azzzadude> mmmm
[18:43] <azzzadude> do you want it to get bigger or not?
[18:43] <toad_> it's not really so much searching-focused though there are several ways to search
[18:43] <azzzadude> i dont get it
[18:44] <toad_> searching-focused requires it to be *BIG* so there's a good chance of finding what you're looking for .. but we are working on searching, and there are ways to search already
[18:44] <bootstrap1234023> freenet's still not very focused on usability and public advertisement
[18:44] <PrototypeX29A> azzzadude: it will get bigger, as its usability improves
[18:44] <toad_> also, Frost takes a while to download all the indexes etc
[18:44] <azzzadude> i noticed that
[18:44] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: it isn't? usability in 0.7 is way up from 0.5, well, apart from the reference trading issue
[18:44] <PrototypeX29A> ... and the monitoring of internet traffic increases
[18:45] <bootstrap1234023> its almost not usable for a beginner...
[18:45] <toad_> bootstrap1234023: I don't understand why your connections don't work .. i have some theories, of course ..
[18:45] <PrototypeX29A> i don
[18:45] <azzzadude> i shared some files
[18:45] <bootstrap1234023> indeed but 0.7 is highly alpha with too many troubling updates
[18:45] <azzzadude> actualy many files
[18:45] <azzzadude> about 80gb
[18:45] <azzzadude> all copyrighted
[18:45] <azzzadude> ;)
[18:46] <azzzadude> can ppl search them?
[18:46] <toad_> on freenet?!
[18:46] <toad_> i suppose it's possible with frost...
[18:46] <toad_> maybe
[18:46] <bootstrap1234023> its ok if you made them yourself
[18:46] <toad_> but since i'm paid by the shell corp Freenet Project Inc, I now have to kick you, sorry
[18:46] * azzzadude was kicked from #freenet by toad_
[18:47] <toad_> not very friendly ... but I did warn him :|
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[18:47] <toad_> hello again :)
[18:47] <bootstrap1234023> well not much of a kick
[18:47] <azzzadude> it was my fault
[18:47] <azzzadude> yep
[18:47] <toad_> indeed :)
[18:47] <UberDox|away> toad_, is Freenet actually a registered organisation?
[18:47] <bootstrap1234023> this is logged and publicly available...
[18:47] * UberDox|away is now known as UberDox
[18:47] * UberDox is back from: Away (been away for 10h 21m)
[18:48] <azzzadude> hope this project get bigger and better
[18:48] <toad_> well to answer your questions ... Frost is searchable, but it can take a while for it to find everything. many files are shared through Thaw, and some through the web interface. all of the above provide searching mechanisms.
[18:48] <toad_> UberDox: yes it's a 501c3
[18:48] <PrototypeX29A> is there a svn via freenet?
[18:48] <azzzadude> i think we all need a serverless filesharing program
[18:49] <toad_> well, i suggest you have a look around and see what *is* available before you decide to leave
[18:49] <azzzadude> wish you luck guys
[18:49] <bootstrap1234023> trust me, there are many unencrypted ones as well
[18:49] <UberDox> Ah. That imposes quite a few limitations, doesn't it?
[18:49] <toad_> yeah there are lots of p2p's, very few of them have freenet's ambitious security goals
[18:49] <toad_> UberDox: no political campaigning being the main one
[18:50] <PrototypeX29A> is gnunet still alive?
[18:50] <bootstrap1234023> has it been alive?
[18:50] <toad_> UberDox: obviously setting it up will have been a *major* PITA ... but that's Not My Problem :)
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[18:50] <UberDox> Well, I didn't mean politics. More like, 501c creates many time consuming obligations
[18:50] <PrototypeX29A> bootstrap1234023: i was able to connect and download stuff
[18:51] <toad_> not that i know of, but then i'm not involved in that side of things
[18:51] <bootstrap1234023> proto: good sign
[18:51] <UberDox> We've been working on registring the volunteer network I'm part of, and it's a magor pain. We had to separate the actual volunteer net from the business part
[18:51] <UberDox> But perhaps it's done differently in Canada
[18:51] <PrototypeX29A> i'm puzzled, which network i should pay attention
[18:52] <bootstrap1234023> but have you remarked that entropy is filled with cancer nodes?
[18:52] <toad_> for all we know so is freenet...
[18:52] <toad_> bbiab
[18:53] <PrototypeX29A> do "cancer nodes" refer to any malicious nodes?
[18:53] <bootstrap1234023> yes
[18:53] <bootstrap1234023> but actually to those spreading the problems thruu more nodes
[18:54] <PrototypeX29A> wouldn't be that a flaw in the protocol?
[18:54] <bootstrap1234023> thats why darknet was developed
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[18:54] <PrototypeX29A> i see
[18:54] <bootstrap1234023> the true darknet i mean
[18:55] <PrototypeX29A> as in Friend-2-friend?
[18:55] <bootstrap1234023> 0.5 was even tracable
[18:55] <toad_> Sybil is a particularly interesting form of cancer - cancer nodes that pretend to be more than one node and get connected to lots of nodes / more than once to a specific target
[18:55] <toad_> 0.7 still has vulnerabilities... :|
[18:55] <toad_> we're working on it
[18:55] <bootstrap1234023> with darknet only?
[18:55] <bootstrap1234023> well people use it if it was opennet anyway
[18:56] <toad_> we will have both
[18:56] <toad_> but long term it will have to be darknet only cos it'll be illegal
[18:56] <bootstrap1234023> when it's wide spread :-)
[18:56] <PrototypeX29A> so the development of freenet has to be in the dark itself
[18:56] <bootstrap1234023> no more irc at least
[18:58] <bootstrap1234023> but the devs have been using frost and so for a really long time anyway
[19:00] <PrototypeX29A> realtime networking should be possible through a darknet
[19:01] <bootstrap1234023> yes but its not made for it
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[19:01] <bootstrap1234023> and it wouldnt be that secure
[19:01] <bootstrap1234023> but not even tor is safe...
[19:02] <PrototypeX29A> i don't believe in tor :)
[19:02] <bootstrap1234023> but it works well ;-)
[19:02] <PrototypeX29A> why wouldn't it be secure?
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[19:02] <PrototypeX29A> bootstrap1234023: but with some central organs
[19:03] <bootstrap1234023> centralized and stuff, not very well encrypted and so on
[19:03] <bootstrap1234023> central organs?
[19:04] <PrototypeX29A> iirc there are registered servers which list the participating tor nodes
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[19:05] <UberDox> Tor is far from being the most secure solution. It is advertised in a not-so-honest way.
[19:06] <bootstrap1234023> nope. wonder if there are any alternatives
[19:07] <bootstrap1234023> except for using the neighbours wlan
[19:08] <bootstrap1234023> or libraries
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[19:11] <PrototypeX29A> maybe tor is the best thing available for some kind of stuff
[19:11] <PrototypeX29A> but i still find f2f-networks more interesting :)
[19:12] <PrototypeX29A> and more robust against the worst schäuble-scenario
[19:12] <bootstrap1234023> tor is more for practical use
[19:12] <UberDox> Tor is merely a tool that helps you with whatever you use it for. Many, if not most, people use it without realising they jeopardise their privacy by other means, THROUGH the Tor network.
[19:13] <UberDox> I got "oh my god how did you know" more than once from Tor users =]
[19:13] <PrototypeX29A> like using unsecured webmailer?
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[19:14] <UberDox> Like using their personal logins in insecure places or giving out private info that identifies them.
[19:15] <UberDox> Also, auto update applications, Google search entries, logins, etc.. all can identify you
[19:15] <darthmuss> stupid to use tor for that
[19:15] <UberDox> That's what I always say
[19:15] <bootstrap1234023> cookies was designed to be an evil thing
[19:16] <PrototypeX29A> there should be a change in awareness first to reach anonymity
[19:16] <PrototypeX29A> is there a guide to "behave" anonymous?
[19:16] <bootstrap1234023> ive seen one on freenet
[19:16] <bootstrap1234023> long text
[19:17] <PrototypeX29A> i have to check it out
[19:17] <PrototypeX29A> after i managed to download freenet
[19:17] <bootstrap1234023> i read parts of it during the 0.5 days...
[19:20] <PrototypeX29A> is there more about inverse passive requests, other than the text in the roadmap?
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[19:30] <PrototypeX29A> i have trouble using the webinstaller, it tries to download an exe-file from get.freenetproject.org which does not seem available
[19:31] <Tommy[D]> are you sure you use the actual installer?
[19:33] <PrototypeX29A> i tried the link in the topic
[19:33] <PrototypeX29A> i think
[19:34] <PrototypeX29A> atm http://downloads.freenetproject.org does not respond
[19:35] <PrototypeX29A> perhaps i tried the installer on sourceforge before
[19:36] <Tommy[D]> it does respond for me, so if you cannot reach http://downloads.freenetproject.org it is a connection problem on your side
[19:37] <PrototypeX29A> very strange
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[19:37] <brwyatt> hey
[19:40] <brwyatt> could anyone help me with freemail?
[19:42] <Tommy[D]> perhaps you should ask your real question? and btw i am not sure, but freemail could be broken
[19:42] <PrototypeX29A> hey
[19:44] <brwyatt> it says it cant connect to my node
[19:45] <Tommy[D]> your node is up and running?
[19:45] <brwyatt> oh yeah
[19:46] <brwyatt> hum...
[19:46] <brwyatt> it seems to be working this time....
[19:47] <brwyatt> maybe it WONT work.... its just generating the keys
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[19:53] <brwyatt> sup ampedout
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[20:18] <PrototypeX29A> strange, i only have problems downloading using opera
[20:18] <PrototypeX29A> i can't use the wiki with opera, either
[20:19] <Tommy[D]> opera beta? :>
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[20:23] <PrototypeX29A> i dont think so
[20:37] <_toad_> <PrototypeX29A> and more robust against the worst schäuble-scenario
[20:37] <_toad_> what's a schäuble-scenario ?
[20:38] <_toad_> PrototypeX29A: yes, you can ask us, or trawl through IRC logs and email archives
[20:38] <_toad_> PrototypeX29A: Ultra-Lightweight Passive Requests may be implemented before 0.7
[20:38] <_toad_> or at least before 0.8
[20:38] <_toad_> oh, inverse passive requests? hmmm...
[20:39] <PrototypeX29A> schäuble is the name of the german minister of interior
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[20:39] <PrototypeX29A> who doesnt like privacy
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[20:40] <_toad_> ah :)
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[20:42] <PrototypeX29A> i can image what passive requests are, but not what inverse passive requests mean
[20:42] <PrototypeX29A> imagine
[20:46] <brwyatt> could someone help me with freemail?
[20:48] * UberDox is now known as UberDox|away
[20:50] <brwyatt> anyone?
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[21:09] <PrototypeX29A> if i am exchanging references, using a dynamic ip. Will the connection only last until my ip changes?
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[21:11] <brwyatt> no
[21:11] <brwyatt> i use my laptop i 2 diff places and it works fine
[21:11] <PrototypeX29A> how?
[21:13] <brwyatt> i think it will just have you start the connection
[21:14] <brwyatt> like if you start it, then whoever you connect to can find you
[21:14] <PrototypeX29A> ok, then one peer has to have a static ip
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[21:17] <brwyatt> honesty, i have no clue really...
[21:17] <brwyatt> lol
[21:17] <brwyatt> but what i said is my bes guess
[21:18] <brwyatt> actually...
[21:18] <brwyatt> it is probable, that once u connect to one person, it is able to "search" for ppls nodes and then update the ips localy....
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[22:39] <Bahamit> hey if anyone wants to peer, could u join freenet-ref
[22:39] <Bahamit> ?
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Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
These logs were automatically created by FreenetLogBot on chat.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.