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[1:52] <CIA-14> toad * r11503 /trunk/freenet/src/freenet/ (20 files in 4 dirs):
[1:52] <CIA-14> freenet/node/simulator - initially just the old Test classes. This is a directory for code which does network simulations using the real live freenet node code, by creating multiple nodes in one VM.
[1:52] <CIA-14> also related refactorings, and various new expert config options.
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[4:08] <SIxNine> Are frames allowed in freenet?
[4:12] <Apophis2_> yes
[4:13] <Apophis2_> but you cannot link to anything outside freenet... your not the first funny guy :P
[4:13] <SIxNine> lol
[4:14] <SIxNine> I'd come up with better methods if I was going to do something like that
[4:14] <SIxNine> hotlinking or something
[4:14] <Apophis2_> So yes frames and iframes are allowed
[4:14] * ATGeek wonders if freenet/jsite detects the external link or if it's something that's still possible, just highly frowned upon
[4:14] <SIxNine> I'm just trying to remember how to deal with oldschool type of designs
[4:14] <SIxNine> where u can't use scripting and shit
[4:15] <Apophis2_> Use CSS ;) you can use hover and things
[4:17] <SIxNine> rgr
[4:17] <Apophis2_> ya?
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[4:23] <SIxNine> rgr = roger sorry
[4:23] <SIxNine> lol
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[7:20] <sopues> the new stats are very cute ;)
[7:20] <sopues> me like
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[7:35] <IMCensored1> the circle of Xs =P
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[8:33] <draq6546516> i opened up my udp port on my router, but i still get a "port restricted cone NAT" message in freenet, i'm using a linksys WRT54G if that helps
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[8:47] <c4fer> I had the error to it must be a bug
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[9:36] <Randan> If you get that error always, then its not a hint for a bug but a crappy router. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation" above "symetric nat", thats the type of nat that freenet seems to have detected. These types of NATs will probably cause problems.
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[12:40] <nextgens> hi
[12:40] <NCLAV> hey
[12:52] <toad_> hi nextgens
[12:53] <NCLAV> =\ no ones talking
[12:54] <toad_> :|
[12:54] <NCLAV> well . . about any particular subject
[12:56] <_ph00> the damn node keeps restarting itself ~once a hour
[12:56] <NCLAV> does anyone know where the config file is for the python ref bot is?
[12:56] <NCLAV> what node?
[12:56] <_ph00> latest 24 hr wrapper log ==> http://pastebin.ca/287369
[12:57] <_ph00> NCLAV: in your home directory (.refbot_something)
[12:57] <NCLAV> lol, im on windows
[12:57] <_ph00> well, I don0t know what the windows equivakent of a home directory is, maybe my documents or something
[13:00] <NCLAV> do you know a filename where the config is stored or anything?
[13:01] <_ph00> you may need to enable 'show hidden files and directories'
[13:02] <_ph00> the cconf file's filename is...
[13:02] <_ph00> .freenet_ref_bot
[13:02] <_ph00> with a dot at the beginning
[13:03] <_ph00> in the win equivalent of your home directory...
[13:03] <_ph00> (I'd search c:\Documents and settings
[13:03] <_ph00> it must be there somewhere
[13:04] <NCLAV> yep, in c:\docs bla bla\[my username]\
[13:04] <NCLAV> thanks a heap
[13:04] <_ph00> np
[13:07] <NCLAV> looks like its working
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[14:16] <Bink> anyone know when or how the Frost problem is going to be fixed?
[14:17] <^^--nCL\AV> theres something wrong with frost?
[14:17] <Bink> nobody is receiving any messages in multiple boards
[14:17] <^^--nCL\AV> =\ the MoD bug?
[14:17] <Bink> yeah
[14:18] <^^--nCL\AV> damn, i thought that had been fixed
[14:18] <Bink> well as far as i knew it wasnt
[14:18] <Bink> but maybe it was
[14:18] <Bink> i got on yesterday when it was happening, and got no messages
[14:18] <^^--nCL\AV> id imagine there would be people trying to fix that asap.
[14:18] <Bink> thats what i want to find out, if it was fixed or not
[14:18] <^^--nCL\AV> hmm, yeah it could still be unfixed. im not sure
[14:18] <Bink> do i need to download a new version of the software?
[14:19] <^^--nCL\AV> id imagine so
[14:19] <Bink> i dont think its fixed
[14:19] <Bink> im only on a slow 56k modem, but usually i would of gotten a message by now on frost
[14:19] <^^--nCL\AV> yeah, fair enough
[14:19] <Bink> waiting on frost to download any messages, and none yet
[14:20] <^^--nCL\AV> yeah, ive seen a lack of messages in frost too
[14:20] * ^^--nCL\AV is now known as ^^--nCL\AV_
[14:20] <Bink> why the weird name?
[14:21] * ^^--nCL\AV_ is now known as ^^--nCL\AV
[14:21] <^^--nCL\AV> a lack of something better
[14:22] <Bink> even the name johndoe, would be better
[14:22] <Bink> hehe
[14:22] <^^--nCL\AV> lol
[14:22] <Bink> but to each his own :)
[14:22] <^^--nCL\AV> yep
[14:25] <Bink> so when do the developers "wake up"?
[14:26] <^^--nCL\AV> i believe there are devs on right now
[14:27] <Bink> well they arent responding
[14:27] <Bink> or are you one?
[14:28] <^^--nCL\AV> nah, though i might have a crack at it when i can be arsed getting the source code
[14:29] <^^--nCL\AV> i know toad_ and nextgens are devs (at least i think they are)
[14:29] <Bink> what does "arsed" mean
[14:30] <Bink> And yeah i know toad and nextgens and zothar, are developers
[14:30] <Bink> i just want to find out if there will be a new version of frost or a new version of freenet
[14:30] <^^--nCL\AV> by "when i can be arsed" i mean "when i can find the time"
[14:30] <Bink> to fix the problem
[14:30] <^^--nCL\AV> i would have no idea
[14:30] <Bink> I never heard that term before
[14:31] <^^--nCL\AV> wow, its pretty common
[14:31] <Bink> well been on internet for years, and never heard it
[14:31] <Bink> What country are you in?
[14:32] <Bink> maybe its a country-specific term
[14:32] <^^--nCL\AV> could be, im from australia
[14:35] <nextgens> Bink> hi
[14:36] <nextgens> what version of the freenet node are you using ?
[14:36] <Bink> 1007
[14:36] <nextgens> the stable one or testing ?
[14:36] <Bink> as a standard darknet node
[14:36] <nextgens> ok, stable then
[14:37] <Bink> I was wondering if they are going to release a fix for Frost today
[14:37] <Bink> since not getting any messages in public, frost, among other boards
[14:37] <nextgens> frost isn't developped by freenet devs
[14:37] <nextgens> but by bback
[14:37] <Bink> but is the bug a freenet bug or a frost bug?
[14:38] <Bink> the asshole (excuse my language) who is doing this, claims its a freenet problem in his message
[14:38] <nextgens> that's hard to tell :)
[14:38] <nextgens> I haven't been able to reproduce the problem
[14:38] <Bink> you saw his message?
[14:38] <nextgens> I do get messages including on the public board
[14:38] <nextgens> no
[14:39] <nextgens> but I'm not suscribed to the frost board
[14:39] <nextgens> :p
[14:39] <Bink> the only message i got on the public board, that is dated after december 20
[14:39] <Bink> is the one from evildude
[14:39] <nextgens> may you stick the revelant thread onto a pastebin please ?
[14:40] <Bink> okay
[14:40] <Bink> one sec
[14:40] <Bink> im on 56k, so not fast
[14:41] <Bink> http://pastebin.ca/raw/287483
[14:41] <Bink> that is the post that the guy who did it, wrote
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[14:41] <Bink> he posted it to all the boards that are infected
[14:42] <Bink> the only message i got on all those boards, is the one from him, no other messages after that one was posted
[14:43] <nextgens> I didn't know about it :)
[14:43] <nextgens> toad_> http://pastebin.ca/raw/287483 ^
[14:43] <nextgens> hmm
[14:44] <nextgens> there is no trivial solution
[14:44] <makomk> Funny; I just wrote one.
[14:44] <nextgens> yes, KSK pooling sucks and we can't do much about that
[14:44] <nextgens> makomk> ?
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[14:45] <nextgens> the suggested solution is nonsense
[14:45] <makomk> (Basically, it counts all keys for which we get at least one block as occupied for deciding when to stop fetching...)
[14:45] <nextgens> we can't be 100% sure that the data doesn't exist
[14:46] <Bink> i have no clue how freenet works
[14:46] <Bink> but i have a little programming background
[14:47] <Bink> not great
[14:47] <Bink> anyways, shouldnt it be possible to tell when data doesn't exist, and just trash the fake keys?
[14:48] <Bink> makomk, i saw your post on the bug section of the board
[14:48] <Bink> ----- makomk@vRyMwu+BbC3bDUkRjC0+PFlu3xI ----- 2006.12.21 - 12:41:34GMT -----
[14:48] <Bink> Fairly trivial fix - just count any key for which we get a SimpleProgress message with Succeeded > 0 as existing...
[14:49] <Bink> i have no clue what that means though
[14:49] <nextgens> that involves acting on the client (frost) only
[14:49] <nextgens> whereas the suggested fix on your paste was about acting on node's side
[14:50] <Bink> the paste is what the idiot who did this, wrote
[14:50] <nextgens> has bback replied yet ?
[14:50] <Bink> atleast though he described what he did, which surprised me
[14:50] <Bink> i would think if they wanted to damage freenet, they wouldnt go and give a full page explanation on how it works
[14:50] <Bink> lol
[14:50] <Bink> no reply from bback that i see yet
[14:50] <nextgens> it's damaging frost, not freenet
[14:51] <Bink> im on a 56k modem, so it takes a while for me to download messages, even when its working normally
[14:51] <nextgens> :)
[14:51] <Bink> im waiting on the freenet-bugs board to update
[14:51] <^^--nCL\AV> i havent had a messae since
[14:51] <^^--nCL\AV> ill check the bugs board, see if i get anything
[14:51] <makomk> nextgens: there are probably other similar attacks, but this fixes the easy, take-out-loads-of-boards-for-a-week-in-advance, attack being used here...
[14:51] <Bink> well Frost is a fairly significant part of freenet, whether you admit it or not
[14:51] <Bink> makomk, is there a fix
[14:51] <Bink> available now
[14:52] <Bink> since i like to get the messages, im missing
[14:52] <^^--nCL\AV> i wouldnt be suprised if someone replicated the hack for every board since im not getting any messages from the boards im subsribed to
[14:53] <Bink> im not getting messages from MOST boards either, not just the boards he said he would screw up
[14:53] <Bink> i was wondering about that too
[14:53] <^^--nCL\AV> im not getting anything
[14:53] <Bink> i get messages from freenet-bugs still
[14:54] <Bink> and that is only board that is working so far
[14:54] <Bink> Makomk, is there an updated version of frost available yet, to fix this?
[14:56] <Bink> are you one of the frost developers?
[14:57] <Bink> hmms, no response.......
[14:58] <^^--nCL\AV> i believe he isnt a dev for frost
[14:58] <nextgens> sleon> http://pastebin.ca/raw/287483 ^
[14:58] <nextgens> sleon> any thought ?
[14:59] <makomk> Bink: I'm not a frost dev, and no official patch, but mine is http://www.makomk.com/~aidan/frost-mod-fix.patch
[14:59] <Bink> im on windows
[14:59] <Bink> can i install that on windows, or need linux?
[14:59] <nextgens> :D
[15:00] <Bink> and how do you install a .patch type file on windows?
[15:00] <^^--nCL\AV> i would like to know also
[15:02] <makomk> You don't. You have to check out the latest Frost CVS, apply the patch, and recompile.
[15:04] <sleon> nextgens: moment
[15:04] <^^--nCL\AV> what do you use to apply that sort of patch?
[15:05] <nextgens> a tool called patch
[15:05] <sleon> nextgens: grrrr
[15:05] <nextgens> or a text editor and a brain
[15:05] <sleon> nextgens: this is baaaaadd
[15:05] <sleon> nextgens: the man disturbing all boards ... :(
[15:05] <^^--nCL\AV> yeah, i looked at it in notepad, eugh
[15:06] <nextgens> in fact it's worse than that
[15:06] <sleon> nextgens: i know
[15:06] <nextgens> of course, frost is floodable
[15:06] <sleon> nextgens: but it destructs whole thing
[15:06] <sleon> nextgens: what about preventing ksk keys from being inserted ?
[15:06] <nextgens> and even if we fix it the way he suggests, noone can prevent him from DoSing frost
[15:06] <sleon> nextgens: and propagated when they point nowhere ?
[15:06] <nextgens> héhé
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[15:07] <nextgens> I'm not sure it's a good idea either
[15:07] <sleon> nextgens: i mean look. you can not insert the second ksk when one is already inserted
[15:07] <nextgens> yes, keys are immuable
[15:07] <sleon> nextgens: ok then we should simply increase index when this special error appears
[15:07] <sleon> and get next ksk
[15:07] <nextgens> but when we "specified" ksks, we haven't said that they wouldn't be propagated if empty
[15:08] <sleon> nextgens: could you implement this new type of error then?
[15:08] <nextgens> for now, frost isn't even notified that the data isn't found because it doesn't exist
[15:08] <nextgens> sure I could
[15:08] <nextgens> but even if I did, it's still a nightmare
[15:08] <makomk> nextgens: sure, no one can prevent him from flooding Frost, but we can make it more expensive that inserting a a few blocks per board per day...
[15:08] <nextgens> as all deployed frosts wouldn't be patched
[15:09] <sleon> nextgens: yes it is
[15:09] <highfly22> hi
[15:09] <sleon> nextgens: but still it is good it was discovered now then later
[15:09] <nextgens> makomk> well, ensuring that the key exist means "trying to fetch it"
[15:09] <highfly22> I have a question on the version of ant.
[15:09] <nextgens> that WILL be expensive
[15:09] <sleon> nextgens: i do not think you can do anything about it right now
[15:10] <nextgens> highfly22> you're on #freenet here, if it's related, go ahead
[15:10] <sleon> nextgens: i got 386 hits on new mirror :)
[15:10] <nextgens> :)
[15:10] <highfly22> when I use the jar compiled by ant, but it always said nofoundclass
[15:10] <highfly22> but I use the class file, it's ok
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[15:10] <nextgens> when you attempt to do what ?
[15:10] <Bink> couldn't this be used to flood freenet too, if someone sends out thousands of fake keys?
[15:10] <nextgens> using wich command line ?
[15:10] <highfly22> like this
[15:10] <highfly22> C:\cygwin\home\highfly\work\freenet>java -cp lib\freenet-ext.jar -jar lib\freene
[15:10] <highfly22> t-cvs-snapshot.jar
[15:10] <highfly22> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/sleepycat/je/Data
[15:11] <highfly22> baseException
[15:11] <Bink> and wouldn't it make sense for each node on the network to have some sort of garbage collection and dumping?
[15:11] <Bink> to get rid of the fakes?
[15:11] <nextgens> no, as insert is costy, flooding freeenet is out of topic here :)
[15:11] <nextgens> highfly22> you need both to be in classpath : java -cp lib\freenet-ext.jar;lib\freenet-cvs-snapshot.jar freenet.node.NodeStarter will do
[15:11] <Bink> as i said, im not an expert at this, and not that good at programming, but if i was to design my own network, i would have some sort of "junk finding" and elimination in it on each node
[15:12] <sleon> nextgens: was bback also notified ?
[15:12] <highfly22> but I use the command "C:\cygwin\home\highfly\work\freenet>java -cp lib\freenet-ext.jar -jar lib\freene
[15:12] <highfly22> t-cvs-snapshot.jar
[15:12] <highfly22> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/sleepycat/je/Data
[15:12] <highfly22> baseException" It's ok.
[15:12] <highfly22> What's the problem?
[15:12] <nextgens> sleon> dunno; not by me at least
[15:12] <Bink> why isnt that possible in freenet, to find and get rid of garbage?
[15:12] <sleon> nextgens: i call him now
[15:12] <sleon> :D
[15:12] <nextgens> Bink> on freenet, "fetching" means "ensure it will stay on the network"
[15:12] <nextgens> sleon> ask him to join IRC if possible :)
[15:12] <sleon> ok
[15:13] <Bink> but why can't it analyze whats junk and whats legitimate?
[15:13] <Bink> some sort of automatic process in each node
[15:13] <Bink> or are you afraid people would abuse it, to censor the network?
[15:13] <nextgens> because KSK wasn't designed to be a special keytype for frost only operations
[15:13] <nextgens> weren't
[15:15] <makomk> Besides, once someone's inserted some of these messages of death, it might be best to make sure they propagate well. Otherwise, interesting things may happen...
[15:15] <nextgens> [15:09] < sleon> | nextgens: but still it is good it was discovered now then later
[15:15] <^^--nCL\AV> this may be utterly invalid, but im still trying to get my head around this. when someone inserts this "borked" KSK, it has to go to a few nodes right, is it possible to make the node thats accepting the insert check if its "borked" or not and discard it if it is? sorry if what i said makes no sense, im still learning the technical details of how freenet and frost works.
[15:16] <nextgens> it's not a "discovery" as such :)
[15:17] <nextgens> ^^--nCL\AV> that's what sleon has suggested : preventing the propagation
[15:17] <^^--nCL\AV> fair enough, my bad
[15:17] <highfly22> nextgens: go it thanks
[15:17] <nextgens> toad_> toad ? TOAD ?
[15:18] <Bink> myself, im not exactly sure what a KSK is, and how that is different from a file insert of a CHK
[15:18] <nextgens> creating a new type of error is probably fine
[15:18] <nextgens> but will be inefficient ... if the bad guy is motivated enough
[15:18] <Bink> i liked the part where the hacker, explained how it works
[15:18] <nextgens> preventing propagation is a matter of policy
[15:18] <Bink> i thought that was weird, since if he was trying to hurt things, why explain it?
[15:19] <^^--nCL\AV> it seems to me that he was just uncovering an exploit and proving it works
[15:19] <sleon> Bink: :DDD maybe explains first so taht developers know hot to fix the problem and then hurts to make them fix it FAST
[15:19] <Bink> what is the difference between a KSK and a CHK, or is the explanation too complicated?
[15:20] <^^--nCL\AV> thats something i would like to know but i fear that its just too long to explain.
[15:20] <makomk> And then breaks most of the major boards for a week once he's sure it will work.
[15:20] <sleon> Bink: but it think such thing would be quickly discovered when it would appear in masses
[15:20] <^^--nCL\AV> sleon: i think it already has, none of the boards im subscribed to are getting new mwssages
[15:20] <nextgens> Bink> http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetZeroPointSeven <= explained there
[15:20] <Bink> NCLAV, and what you said about the nodes checking if its borked or not, is what i said myself, when i said nodes should have garbage collection
[15:21] <^^--nCL\AV> thanks nextgens
[15:21] <Bink> but perhaps im really misunderstanding how freenet works and why that isnt possible
[15:21] * railk (n=railk@) Quit (Connection timed out)
[15:21] <nextgens> it's possible ... but I'm not sure it's the way to go
[15:21] * smee finishes reading logs.
[15:21] <nextgens> if we do it, we will "heal" keys
[15:21] <smee> well, i guess asking my question is entirely redundant now.
[15:22] <nextgens> smee> if it is "why doesn't frost work", I guess yes
[15:22] <Bink> the freenet bugs board, and freenet ref boards, are working so far, but none of the other boards im subscribed to, are working
[15:22] <smee> it was
[15:22] <sleon> nextgens: what he can not break are SSK boards :)
[15:22] <sleon> imho
[15:22] <highfly22> ft. I just lost my data all the peer data
[15:22] <highfly22> how to backup it
[15:23] <nextgens> sleon> indeed
[15:23] * railk (n=railk@) has joined #freenet
[15:23] <nextgens> sleon> well, in fact he can
[15:23] <makomk> sleon: SSK boards he doesn't have write access to, anyway. If he does have write access, won't the same trick work?
[15:23] <Bink> i imagine there will be hundreds of people coming on here today, and asking WHY ISNT MY FROST WORKING
[15:23] <Bink> hehe
[15:24] <sleon> makomk: SSK is not a link to something as KSK is
[15:24] <nextgens> and as major boards, including frost are broken, even if a fix is released, it will be a pain to deploy it
[15:24] <Bink> i just happen to get up early today at 8 am, so i think i was the first here asking it
[15:24] <makomk> sleon: IIRC, it can be, can't it?
[15:24] <nextgens> it can't
[15:25] <nextgens> iirc public boards are date based KSKs redirecting to a CHK index
[15:25] <Bink> if he can't break SSK boards, then you can post a message on the Announce board on Frost
[15:25] <nextgens> his attack is about flooding KSK keyspace with inexistent CHKs
[15:26] <nextgens> I'm not 100% sure on how secure boards are implemented though
[15:26] <nextgens> sleon> do you know ?
[15:26] <sleon> nextgens: when you get non conform xml data
[15:26] <sleon> or garbage
[15:26] <sleon> then index is increased
[15:27] <sleon> and it tries again
[15:27] <nextgens> yes, but how are keyed boards implemented ?
[15:27] <nextgens> I mean what makes you think he won't be able to do the same on keyed board
[15:27] <sleon> nextgens: you post with private SSK key
[15:27] <sleon> nextgens: it is automatically saved when it gets known
[15:28] <sleon> nextgens: was this the question?
[15:28] <smee> the frost anounce board doesn't have a private key publicly available.
[15:28] <sleon> surely i do not know the details
[15:28] <smee> isn't that just for bback only?
[15:28] <sleon> smee: right , it is just for ppls with private key
[15:29] <smee> so it couldn't be spammed and if frost gets fixed people can still find it there.
[15:29] <nextgens> in fact, what I don't remember is whether it inserts onto the SSK's path
[15:29] <sleon> neither i
[15:29] <nextgens> or if it signs the XML file with keys
[15:29] <sleon> nextgens: i think it inserts on SSK path
[15:29] <Bink> just curious, did anyone find Bback yet?
[15:29] <nextgens> ok
[15:29] <sleon> Bink: i caled him right now
[15:29] <sleon> and sent him an email
[15:30] <sleon> he is not answering
[15:30] <sleon> he is at work right now iirc
[15:30] <sleon> i try again later
[15:30] <smee> i wouldn't want to answer, either.
[15:30] <Bink> maybe it would be a good idea to have an auto-message in frost, that automatically displays whenever a new update is available
[15:30] <Bink> that way if someone in the future, comes up with another way to fuck over all the boards
[15:30] <Bink> then it wont block people getting or hearing about the updates
[15:30] <sleon> Bink: good idea
[15:30] <nextgens> sleon> well, then it's probably only a matter of rekeying
[15:31] <nextgens> if we do rekey, he could still flood the keyspace
[15:31] <nextgens> and DoS frost
[15:31] <nextgens> but that wouldn't prevent it from working
[15:31] <sleon> right
[15:31] <sleon> and you also can't do anything about spam
[15:31] <sleon> because frost is opensource :DDD
[15:32] <sleon> bback told me about issues he had with spammers
[15:32] <sleon> he added some code to prevent spams, and then noticed them looking at sourcecode and making the way around traps :DD
[15:32] <Bink> yeah, that is one of the reasons why i believe in closed source
[15:33] <Bink> well atleast for security related matters
[15:33] <nextgens> that's bullshit :)
[15:33] <sleon> hehe
[15:33] <nextgens> security by obscurity doesn't work
[15:33] <Bink> the rest of the code can be open source, but the part of the code that handles security, should always be closed source
[15:33] <Bink> in my opinion
[15:33] <^^--nCL\AV> yeah, open source for security based aps is best
[15:33] <^^--nCL\AV> *apps
[15:33] * BlueLotos (n=guest@) has joined #freenet
[15:33] <Bink> i disagree
[15:33] <nextgens> what if the code happens to be disclosed ?
[15:33] <^^--nCL\AV> its open for inspection, people are able to prove it works as well as it should
[15:33] <Bink> by having the security closed source, you always adding atleast ONE more level of security that someone needs to get thru to hack it
[15:34] <Bink> while open source, removes one level of security
[15:34] <sleon> Bink: there is simply no security for this issue by design
[15:34] <sleon> Bink: you can always disassmble the code
[15:34] <sleon> diass
[15:34] <nextgens> and yes, it's about how frost is done ...
[15:34] <nextgens> it's broken by design
[15:34] <Bink> well hard to read assembly code
[15:34] <sleon> Bink: is the same problem as with email
[15:35] <Bink> you mean the freeemail?
[15:35] <^^--nCL\AV> pardon my ignorance, has anyone thought of a feasable fix for the frost issue?
[15:35] <sleon> Bink: i mean the whole smtp thing
[15:35] <Bink> i never used freenet's version of email yet
[15:35] <sleon> Bink: and spammers
[15:36] <nextgens> sleon> that's not the good example ; spammers are learning from spamassassin to workaround
[15:36] <sleon> Bink: protocol allows everyone to do what he wants withon any checks
[15:36] <Bink> well you need a password to sign on most smtp servers, nowadays
[15:36] <sleon> Bink: sure but they receive data
[15:36] <sleon> Bink: and you can fake the sender
[15:36] <Bink> yeah
[15:36] <Bink> i know
[15:36] <sleon> Bink: it is allowed by protocol
[15:36] <sleon> Bink: and this is the FLAW
[15:36] <Bink> most spammers fake the sender as "yourself"
[15:37] <nextgens> if the sourcecode is openned, you have to take care about things you probably wouldn't mind if it was closed source
[15:37] <Bink> i get plenty of spam emails, where it says i sent it
[15:37] <Bink> lol
[15:37] <nextgens> wich is bad
[15:37] <nextgens> as it assumes the code won't ever leak
[15:37] <Bink> i understand the part about millions of people looking at the code
[15:37] <Bink> but, it still subtracts one level of security that the hacker needs to get around
[15:37] * JasonMog (i=foo@) has joined #freenet
[15:37] <sleon> Bink: so if you would design it securely ,then it would not be the problem. but it is notpossible by freenet. it would need to centralized athority and it is not possible
[15:38] <Bink> i know
[15:38] <Bink> i was considering writing a MMORPG game someday, that is based off of how torrent works
[15:38] <Bink> so instead of one central server
[15:38] <Bink> the MMORPG game is distributed across everyone who plays it
[15:38] <Bink> and in my thoughts, i believe that any security for passwords, characters, etc, in that game, would need to be closed source
[15:39] <Bink> since because its not centralized, and because there is no one central server to authenticate things, then you need to keep the security secret
[15:39] <Bink> for such a system to work
[15:39] <sleon> Bink: rofl
[15:39] <nextgens> Bink> ever heard of http://www.ryzom.org/ ?
[15:39] <sleon> Bink: look at the whole hacks and cheats
[15:39] <Bink> haven't done much programming though, since i had a job for a few years in writing C code, and another job for 7 years in writing Dbase code
[15:39] <Bink> and dbase is a joke for a programming language
[15:40] <Bink> i really need to learn c++, and learn it well
[15:40] <Bink> im kind of stuck on procedural based programming, i never really mastered object oriented
[15:40] <Bink> No, what is www.ryzom.org?
[15:40] <sleon> Bink: and also you are stuck with *closed source* idea . :) just a joke
[15:41] <Bink> well there are valid reasons for closed source for security
[15:41] <Bink> and to be fair to the other side, there are valid reasons for open source for security too
[15:41] <Bink> both have positives and negatives
[15:41] <nextgens> a project willing to buy a closed source MMORPG ... to open source it ... the FSF was ready to bid $60000 on it
[15:42] <Bink> there are a number of open source MMORPG projects around
[15:42] * saces (n=saces@) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[15:42] <nextgens> so it means it's possible to do, and it works
[15:42] <sleon> Bink: at that level of evolution?
[15:42] <Bink> though none of them are World of Warcraft quality yet, and WoW itself is years out of date in graphic quality
[15:43] <Bink> i like to see some "for free" MMORPG games, that are of WoW quality
[15:43] <Bink> i seen a few open source mmorpg games, that are 1980's type graphics, look sort of like the original ultima online (or even worst graphics then that)
[15:43] <sleon> Bink: do you know how many artists and designers Blizzard pays?
[15:43] <Bink> thats why i never played those games
[15:43] <sleon> hunderts
[15:43] <Bink> i know
[15:44] <sleon> so i do not think that you can await such thing
[15:44] <Bink> there are fast ways of creating graphical terrain
[15:44] <Bink> i think a group of determined people, could create a game that is atleast as good as Asheron's Call was
[15:45] <sleon> Bink: what about new content ? music? modeling?
[15:45] <Bink> and that would be worth playing
[15:45] <sleon> texturing
[15:45] <sleon> loooots of work
[15:45] <Bink> i didnt say it would be easy
[15:45] <Bink> anyways, back on topic, when do you think they will fix Frost?
[15:45] <sleon> Bink: look this hunderts of designers are constantly providing content
[15:45] <nextgens> Bink> how does affect their security ?
[15:45] <sleon> Bink: they? i would get in touch with bback
[15:46] <nextgens> WoW is closed source as far as I know and many non-official servers are around
[15:46] <nextgens> how do you explain that ?
[15:46] <nextgens> how comes cheats are available as well ?
[15:47] <nextgens> that's the perfect example of "why the closed source is more secure point" doesn't hold
[15:47] <Bink> it does add one additional level of security that a hacker needs to get around
[15:48] <nextgens> sleon> do you still have commit rights on frost's cvs ?
[15:48] <Bink> now if the hacker has friends who work at blizzard, then that hacker has access to do his hacking
[15:48] <Bink> but what about the thousands or even millions of other want-to-be hackers who do NOT have friends at blizzard, who therefore dont have access to the code?
[15:48] <Bink> so closed source will still have leaks
[15:48] <nextgens> it has been published in the wild now
[15:48] <Bink> but there will still be lots of people who dont get it
[15:49] <sleon> nextgens: yes
[15:49] <Bink> and whats published is months out of date
[15:49] <Bink> its like when they released the source code for windows
[15:49] <Bink> and its already got changed a dozen times, with a dozen new updates etc, by the time any hackers download it
[15:49] <sleon> Bink: hackers do not need access to sourcecode to write cheats
[15:49] <sleon> Bink: it is rather simple
[15:49] <Bink> i know
[15:50] <Bink> you have to disassemble it, right?
[15:50] <Bink> i wouldnt call that simple
[15:50] <sleon> Bink: then when you know it , why are you bringing this "friend at blizzard" argument?
[15:50] <nextgens> not necessarily
[15:50] <sleon> Bink: not at all
[15:50] <Bink> i never hacked any games
[15:50] <nextgens> a basic hack working everywhere is playing with the clock
[15:50] <sleon> Bink: do you know game soldat?
[15:50] <Bink> i assumed you need to disassemble the code
[15:50] <sleon> Bink: it is not needed
[15:51] <sleon> Bink: my friend hacked it
[15:51] <nextgens> of course it can be circumvented with "server side" synchronization
[15:51] <sleon> Bink: he simply change the envoronment in which the game runs
[15:51] <Bink> how without disassembling and spending dozens or hundreds of hours trying to read and follow the assembly language?
[15:51] <sleon> Bink: now he can see 10 times wider then others,m fly through walls and such
[15:51] <Bink> what do you mean by change environment?
[15:51] <sleon> and he did not diassmbled anything, he only changed some system calls
[15:52] <smee> in fps games, some aim bots don't even touch the game, and instead pretend to be the video driver, and figure out where to aim based on where things get drawn.
[15:52] <Bink> probably the original programmers were seriously incompetent programmers then
[15:52] <sleon> Bink: to see through walls you do not need to hack on the game at all
[15:52] <Bink> a lot of that goign around lately
[15:52] <sleon> Bink: simply change a driver a little
[15:52] <smee> so hacking might not even require you to touch any game code at all
[15:52] <Bink> yeah but its an issue of incompetence
[15:53] <Bink> the original programmers didn't add any anti-cheat security to the game
[15:53] <sleon> Bink: how does it have to do with incompetence?
[15:53] <Bink> that should handle any exterior changes to the game
[15:53] <nextgens> if it had been open source, that would have been spotted easily
[15:53] <nextgens> more quickly
[15:53] <nextgens> and the imcompetent guy would have been fired
[15:53] * JasonPog (i=foo@) Quit (Connection timed out)
[15:53] <Bink> Most programmers nowadays, unlike in the 1980s when they did, don't think everything out as well
[15:53] <Bink> most programmers nowadays are people who "learned" the skill
[15:53] <nextgens> and no, you can't handle exterior changes :)
[15:53] <Bink> vs. people who are actually talented at it
[15:54] * NullAcht15 (n=NullAcht@) has joined #freenet
[15:54] <nextgens> your application might be running in a virtual machine
[15:54] <Bink> so you got the 99% of the programmers who learned the skill vs. the 1% of the programmers who are actually talented at it
[15:55] <sleon> Bink: yea , there are code monkeys and software architects nowadays :)
[15:55] <nextgens> most programmers aren't paid to do stuffs they are enjoying/competent at
[15:55] <Bink> in the 1980s, when computers first started to come out, it was the opposite, 99% of the people who did it, enjoyed doing it, and were talented at it
[15:55] <Bink> Its like microsoft windows
[15:55] <Bink> 99% of the mistakes in it, are design-flaws
[15:55] <smee> i love how you pull statistics out of thin air.
[15:56] <Bink> things that the programmers didn't think thru well enough
[15:56] * peerless (n=Peerless@) Quit ("sleeeeeep")
[15:56] <Bink> im constantly cursing at the incompetence of the programmers, everyday that i use windows
[15:56] <nextgens> ok, so basically your new point is that "it was better for a software to be closed source in 1980" ? :p
[15:56] <Bink> lol
[15:56] <nextgens> maybe you should consider not using it then ;)
[15:56] * CryingFreeman (n=mathiasf@) has joined #freenet
[15:56] <Bink> what is it with open-source addicts, that they get so intolerant of closed source
[15:56] <nextgens> :)
[15:56] <Bink> myself i am "balanced"
[15:56] <Bink> i believe in BOTH open source and closed source
[15:56] <Bink> and think both are important
[15:57] <Bink> and think both have negatives and positives
[15:57] <Bink> neither is the end all and be all of the industry
[15:57] <nextgens> yet
[15:57] * _ph00 (n=chatzill@) has joined #freenet
[15:57] <_ph00> yo
[15:57] <Bink> and if i recall, the greatest open source project in the world was created in the 1980s
[15:58] <Bink> that would be linux :)
[15:58] <smee> greetings
[15:58] <nextgens> FYI, most countries/big corporations manage to get source code of closed source software
[15:58] <nextgens> including M$
[15:58] <Bink> because people copyright it
[15:58] <nextgens> Bink> I would say gcc
[15:58] <nextgens> and not linux
[15:58] <_ph00> I'm movin freenet to another dir, but copying persistent-temp-<portnr.> is taking *ages*
[15:58] <_ph00> can I leave it off?
[15:58] <nextgens> why are you assimilating OSS and linux ?
[15:58] <nextgens> they are loads of other altenative OSes
[15:59] <nextgens> _ph00> it contains jobs from your global queue
[15:59] <Bink> maybe stop running freenet, while copying?
[16:00] <_ph00> nextgens: so if I leave it out, my queue will be resetted, right?
[16:00] <_ph00> reset*
[16:00] <nextgens> yes
[16:00] <_ph00> k
[16:00] <nextgens> and maybe you'll need to empty downloads.dat.gz as well
[16:00] <_ph00> (I wonder why it's taking so long...)
[16:00] <_ph00> and no, FN is not running in the meantime
[16:01] * nextgens wonders how much warez you're inserting/downloading onto/from freenet
[16:01] <Bink> not enough
[16:01] <CryingFreeman> Question: Is it possible to set up a Freenet server, and point a client-computers (on the LAN) web-browser to it, and get "full functionality"?
[16:01] <Bink> freenet is lacking on the warez front
[16:01] <nextgens> warez is bad for open source
[16:01] <nextgens> I'm happy it's not on freenet
[16:01] <sleon> CryingFreeman: yes
[16:02] <Bink> ph00, you better hurry up on moving your freenet, and get back to the warez business
[16:02] <Bink> hehe
[16:02] <_ph00> warez? me?
[16:02] <Bink> Why is warez bad for open source
[16:02] <Bink> ohh you mean because people get software for free as warez
[16:02] <_ph00> I don't do 'warez'
[16:02] <Bink> and then dont need to use the crappy open source
[16:02] <Bink> since they can get professional programs for free as warez :)?
[16:02] <Bink> is that what you meant?
[16:02] <Bink> hehe
[16:03] <nextgens> yes
[16:03] <sleon> Bink: not crappy, but they have no need to reconsider using other products when you can pirate existing once, even when they do not have money
[16:03] <Bink> and i purposely said crappy, to hit a nerve :) (i will see how angrily he responds, to see if it worked)
[16:03] <Bink> lol
[16:03] <CryingFreeman> sleon: Do one need a certain port, or is it the 8888 that is used regardless of where the request comes from?
[16:03] <Bink> sleon: i was one step ahead of you, i already explained why i said crappy, before you said your response :)
[16:03] <nextgens> I have to get back to work :/ bbiab
[16:03] <sleon> Bink: i know there is a several seconds delay in this chat
[16:04] <CryingFreeman> FYI, i'm just curious ATM, but I intend to set up a server soon.
[16:04] <Bink> And by the way, for years and years, i have said warez MAKES the software industry more money then it loses it
[16:04] <sleon> CryingFreeman: per default it is 8888
[16:04] <Bink> and you just proved one of my points
[16:04] <CryingFreeman> sleon: great, thanks!
[16:04] <Bink> And all those people who get the warez, who will not bother getting open source for free, since they get warez for free
[16:04] <sleon> CryingFreeman: and also you need to make proxy to hear on the global interface
[16:04] <Bink> will then get a job in a fortune 500 company
[16:04] <Bink> then those people with jobs in fortune 500 companies, who used warez all their life
[16:05] <CryingFreeman> sleon: tnx for the tip. =)
[16:05] <Bink> will then recommend the products that they used for years to those companies to buy
[16:05] <Bink> who will then buy hundreds of even thousands of that product
[16:05] <Bink> while if instead, if originally they started out using open source, instead of warez (if the morons in the software industry who are trying to kill the hand that feeds them)
[16:05] <_ph00> Bink: who's gonna win the next horse race?
[16:05] <sleon> CryingFreeman: but it is highly unsecure
[16:05] <Bink> if those morons ever manage to totally stamp out warez
[16:06] <Bink> they will find that more people will use open source
[16:06] <sleon> CryingFreeman: and you risk to loose the anonymity freenet provides to you
[16:06] <Bink> then more people will recommend to large companies, when they get a job at them, to use the open source
[16:06] <sleon> Bink: correct
[16:06] <Bink> and so on
[16:06] <Bink> i been saying stuff like that for years
[16:06] <sleon> Bink: and the morrons doing it
[16:06] <sleon> Bink: look at the evolving copy / protection mechanisms
[16:06] <Bink> warez is a significant factor in software companies MAKING MONEY
[16:06] <Bink> it is the best form of free advertising
[16:06] <sleon> true
[16:06] <Bink> the people who can't afford to buy the software (and who wouldnt buy it anyways), gets the free software
[16:07] <Bink> and when they grow up and get kids and then have good jobs with money
[16:07] <Bink> and want to teach their kids what to do right
[16:07] <Bink> they then buy the software when they got the money
[16:07] <CryingFreeman> sleon: Ok, so what do you recommend? I run linux, so it should be possible to run a remote browser through ssh -X, is that also considered unsecure?
[16:07] <Bink> or tell their companies or places where they work to buy the software, or recommend it to them
[16:07] <Bink> anyways
[16:07] <Bink> so sleon, why you get involved in programming on Freenet
[16:08] * railk (n=railk@) Quit ("Cya, wouldn't want ta be ya!")
[16:08] <sleon> CryingFreeman: i recommend ssh portforwaring
[16:08] <sleon> CryingFreeman: i do it all the time
[16:08] <sleon> CryingFreeman: the freenet node is running on one host and then i connect to it throught ssh hostname -L 8888:127.0.0.1:8888
[16:09] <sleon> CryingFreeman: then it creates local port 8888 on the current maschine and i can browse freenet from the 127.0.0.1:8888 on the local maschine
[16:09] <sleon> CryingFreeman: -L forwards all connections on local port 8888 to remote maschines 127.0.0.1:8888
[16:09] <sleon> CryingFreeman: and the whole thing is encrypted with RSA
[16:10] <CryingFreeman> sleon: right, that seems like a good idea. :) I'll try that. thanks a bundle.
[16:10] <sleon> my please
[16:10] <sleon> s/please/pleasure/
[16:10] <CryingFreeman> :)
[16:11] * SIxNine (n=none@) has joined #freenet
[16:12] <^^--nCL\AV> im off too bed, best of luck fixing the frost issue, cya guys later
[16:12] <sleon> thx ^^--nCL\AV and bye
[16:12] <^^--nCL\AV> bye
[16:12] * ^^--nCL\AV is now known as ^^--nCL\AV--ZzZ
[16:14] * CryingFreeman (n=mathiasf@) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
[16:14] <smee> is there an easy way to make frost think it has already downloaded a message?
[16:14] <sleon> nextgens: i talked shortly with bback right now
[16:14] <nextgens> and ?
[16:14] <sleon> nextgens: he will phone me back today afternoon
[16:14] <smee> like shutting it down, editing some file, and restarting it?
[16:14] <sleon> nextgens: he has now other things to do
[16:14] <Bink> sleon: When do you think they will have the fix for Frost?
[16:14] * grillide (n=hjubal@) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:15] <sleon> smee: they?
[16:15] <smee> they?
[16:15] <Bink> well "they" as in the developers
[16:15] <sleon> smee: it depends, we need first to discuss how to do it , and i want to hear bback's view
[16:15] <sleon> Bink: frost developers are myself and bback
[16:15] <nextgens> FYI, sleon is a frost developer
[16:15] <Bink> and why do you say "smee", when it was me who asked it
[16:15] <Bink> lol
[16:15] <sleon> Bink: bback is the active developer, does all the work
[16:16] <smee> i mean a temporary fix just for me, so i can make it skip ahead of the non-existant messages
[16:16] <Bink> i thought sleon was a freenet developer
[16:16] <sleon> Bink: also :)
[16:16] <sleon> but not active right now
[16:16] <sleon> Bink: i have access to svn though and did some very very tiny work in the past
[16:16] * Yukishiro (n=zhaan@) has joined #freenet
[16:16] <sleon> Bink: i am not so importnat as nextgens for example :))
[16:16] <Bink> hehe
[16:17] <Bink> is Ian Clarke, still a developer
[16:17] <Bink> or is nextgens him?
[16:17] <Bink> i know Ian Clarke is the guy who invented freenet
[16:17] <nextgens> nah
[16:17] <nextgens> his nick is sanity on irc
[16:17] <Bink> he doesn't program it anymore though, does he?
[16:18] <nextgens> sleon> what important task have I achieved, excluding the introduction of new bugs ?
[16:18] <nextgens> he doesn't program on freenet anymore at least
[16:18] <Bink> anyways, on the subject of freenet, when do you think open net will be available
[16:18] <nextgens> :XD
[16:19] <Bink> and will it be pretty secure, when it becomes available?
[16:19] <makomk> smee: if it's a temporary fix you want,
[16:19] <makomk> http://www.makomk.com/~aidan/frost-mod-fix.patch or http://www.makomk.com/~aidan/frost-zomghax.zip should do.
[16:19] <nextgens> Bink> I suggest you read the devl. mailing list
[16:21] <nextgens> to sum up: Ian's point is : we should work on it and have it asap as users (those we hear) are willing to have it
[16:22] <nextgens> toad regards it as a necessary evil
[16:22] <smee> this checks for actually having received blocks for the supposedly missing data? thats interesting.
[16:22] <nextgens> I do regard it as evil; full stop
[16:23] <nextgens> smee> makomk's workaround will work until the spammer manages to evade it
[16:23] <smee> dare i ask how that would work?
[16:23] <smee> or do you just mean that DoS thing?
[16:24] <nextgens> I'm not happy with explaining to you frost internals
[16:24] <nextgens> as yes, it's easily DoSable
[16:24] <smee> because its not your area or because i might use it for evil?
[16:24] <smee> (you don't have to answer)
[16:25] <nextgens> both
[16:25] <nextgens> :)
[16:25] <smee> i see.
[16:25] <smee> so be it, then.
[16:25] <sleon> nextgens: as i told , i did actually nothing except this freeviz thing
[16:25] <sleon> nextgens: ups i misread what you wrote :)
[16:27] <Bink> i asked a long time ago, if mmamok's work around can be installed on windows
[16:27] <Bink> or since its a .patch file, it requires linux?
[16:27] <sleon> Bink: who is mmamok ?
[16:28] <Bink> i would need a windows version
[16:28] <Bink> i mean makomk
[16:28] <Bink> sorry typo
[16:28] <sleon> who is makomk?
[16:28] <Bink> the guy who came up with a solution for the problem
[16:28] <nextgens> [15:39] < Bink> | haven't done much programming though, since i had a job for a few years in writing C code, and another job for 7 years in writing Dbase code
[16:28] <Bink> and posted a .patch problem
[16:28] <nextgens> may I ask what you were using if not "patch" ?
[16:28] <Bink> and posted a .patch to fix the problem
[16:28] <sleon> Bink: what kind of problem?
[16:28] <sleon> Bink: frost problem ?
[16:28] <Bink> the MOD problem
[16:29] <Bink> makomk had a solution for it
[16:29] <Bink> scroll back on the channel
[16:29] <sleon> MOD problem?
[16:29] <sleon> Bink: ok moment
[16:29] <Bink> and nextgens, i don't understand your question
[16:30] <Bink> nextgens, what do you mean by "may i ask what you were using if not patch"?
[16:30] <sleon> Bink: there are too litle matches on MOD and too much on -i mod
[16:30] <Bink> my question was, makomk posted a file that fixes the MOD problem in frost
[16:30] <Bink> he posted it as a .patch
[16:30] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[16:30] <nextgens> well, you said you have been a developper, I don't understand how you did not to use patch
[16:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:30] <Bink> do you need to use linux for that
[16:30] <nextgens> no
[16:30] <Bink> so if you using windows, it wont work for that
[16:30] <nextgens> you need to use patch
[16:30] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:31] <nextgens> wich is a tool
[16:31] <Bink> i programmed in c, like 10+ years ago
[16:31] <Bink> i never used patching tools
[16:31] <smee> this reminds me of the illuminati, makomk secretly creates the MoD, people demand something must be done, and then he releases a 'fixed' version of frost that spys on people.
[16:31] <Bink> im out of date on programming
[16:31] <nextgens> btw, if you do trust makomk, you may use his build : http://www.makomk.com/~aidan/frost-zomghax.zip
[16:31] <smee> (he didn't, just thinking out loud)
[16:31] <Bink> i know enough to talk about programming, but really out of date on current tools
[16:31] <Bink> hmmmms
[16:32] <nextgens> patch --version
[16:32] <nextgens> patch 2.5.9
[16:32] <nextgens> Copyright (C) 1988 Larry Wall
[16:32] <nextgens> Copyright (C) 2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
[16:32] <nextgens> Bink> 10 years old is "young" :)
[16:32] <Bink> i said 10 years ago
[16:32] <nextgens> yes, sorry
[16:32] <Bink> i programmed in C, on some of the original text based MUDS
[16:32] <Bink> on the internet, in 1988
[16:32] <nextgens> I meant 10 years ago is still young regarding to how old is patch
[16:33] <Bink> been on the internet since early 1988
[16:33] <nextgens> do you know what "diff" is ?
[16:33] <Bink> started out on an IBM VM/CMS machine, to connect to the internet
[16:33] <Bink> at drexel college
[16:33] <Bink> left college before gradulating, and had numerous crappy jobs since
[16:33] <nextgens> if so, patch is just the opposite : it patches files according to a diff
[16:34] <Bink> i know, but as far as i know, those tools are in linux
[16:34] <Bink> and not in windows
[16:34] <Bink> i dont use linux
[16:34] <Bink> i used linux in the past, so i know how it works
[16:34] <Bink> but, currently i only use windows, and have only been using windows for years
[16:35] <Bink> because all the software i use is for windows
[16:35] <Bink> anyways, im not aware of there being patching tools in windows
[16:35] <Bink> that come with the OS
[16:35] <nextgens> patch doesn't come with the OS, even on linux
[16:35] <nextgens> :)
[16:36] <nextgens> anyway, back to work
[16:36] <Bink> in linux, there was always a patch command
[16:36] <Bink> atleast in redhat linux
[16:36] <Bink> which was the version i always used, when i used it
[16:37] * _ph00 (n=chatzill@) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.8/2006102516]")
[16:37] <toad_> i'm a freenet dev not a frost dev
[16:38] <Bink> i know
[16:38] <Bink> we talked before
[16:38] <Bink> i keep changing my nickname though
[16:38] <Bink> im the guy on the 56k modem at the moment
[16:39] <Bink> not too many people here on dialup
[16:39] <toad_> nextgens: hrrrrrrrrrm
[16:39] <Bink> you heard about the MOD in frost, toad?
[16:39] <toad_> nextgens: ok, i can fix this, if you haven't already
[16:40] <toad_> nextgens: we just need a new error code, like he said
[16:40] <toad_> nextgens: it does however mean bringing forward the release of 1008
[16:40] <toad_> nextgens: which may be a good idea anyway but it does mean forcing people to download new versions of all the plugins
[16:40] <toad_> I suppose we'll just have to do that :|
[16:40] <sleon> Bink: how old are you??
[16:40] <Bink> im 38
[16:41] <Bink> im an old guy
[16:41] <Bink> old an senile
[16:41] <Bink> starting to get grey hair :(
[16:41] <toad_> nextgens: hmm, that's not a bad idea (Succeeded > 0)
[16:41] <Bink> well not quite yet, but somedays feels that way
[16:42] <sleon> toad_: will you do it mandatory?
[16:42] <sleon> toad_: or should frost have checks for the right version ?
[16:42] <Bink> on disability at the moment, so out of work, going to be trying to get a home based business going soon
[16:42] <sleon> Bink: where do you live ?
[16:42] <Bink> i tryed running a home based business years ago, doing toner cartridge remanufacturing
[16:42] <Bink> was the worst mistake or worst choice possible for a home based business
[16:43] <Bink> i live on the planet earth
[16:43] <Bink> howabout you?
[16:43] <Bink> lol
[16:43] <Bink> okay, i will narrow it down slightly for you......i live in the USA :)
[16:43] <toad_> nextgens: any objection to a custom error code for DATA_NOT_FOUND_PARTIAL or whatever we want to call it?
[16:43] <makomk> Hmmm... rather than introducing a new error code, how about indicating what URI the DataNotFound actually applies to?
[16:43] <toad_> NOT_ALL_DATA_FOUND? PARTIAL_DATA_FOUND?
[16:43] <smee> REDIRECT_NOT_FOUND?
[16:43] <Bink> toad: why can't freenet, just trash any garbage keys it finds?
[16:44] <sleon> Bink: how hard is it to find an it job in USA?
[16:44] <toad_> Bink: we do drop garbage - files nobody fetches - unfortunately this doesn't work well with Frost, because it constantly tries to fetch a predictable sequence of files
[16:44] <sleon> Bink: which is not .NET shit?
[16:44] <smee> the individual keys are valid, its not until we put them all together that we realize we have garbage.
[16:45] <sleon> toad_: EMPTY_REDIRECT ?
[16:45] <smee> i like that one.
[16:45] <toad_> [15:18] <nextgens> creating a new type of error is probably fine
[16:45] <toad_> [15:18] <nextgens> but will be inefficient ... if the bad guy is motivated enough
[16:45] <Bink> sleon: varies, and i think i'm going to work on getting some sort of home based business going
[16:45] <toad_> nextgens: please explain inefficient?
[16:46] <Bink> sleon: and as i said, im on disability at the moment, so im not suppose to be working at the moment
[16:46] <sleon> ok guys i am gone partially for several hours
[16:46] <sleon> i am try to get bbaclk on irc
[16:46] <Bink> sleon: which country do you live in?
[16:46] <toad_> sleon: SSK is the same as KSKs
[16:47] <Bink> seems like everyone is NOT in the usa here
[16:47] <Bink> lol
[16:47] <toad_> sleon: you could have a look at our updating code ...
[16:48] * timmy2chk (n=violent@) has joined #freenet
[16:48] <toad_> Bink: by having security OPEN source, you gain millions of eyeballs looking at it, most of them friendly
[16:49] <Bink> toad_: i know, but valid reasons why closed source is good too (we argued about that a bit, if you are reading the channel logs)
[16:49] <toad_> Bink: there are two types of security here. one is the type of security you get from PGP. the other is the type of security you get from TCPA/Vista.
[16:50] <toad_> for the latter (which is what networked games need), you're trying to do something that is essentially intractable - enable the user to do X but prevent them from doing it differently
[16:50] <Bink> i know what PGP is, but not sure what TCPA is
[16:50] <Bink> and what do you mean by Vista? Vista is the new operating system of microsofts, isn't it?
[16:50] <Bink> or your referring to something else
[16:51] <smee> mass marketed evil, i think.
[16:53] <SIxNine> «@ sleon» Bink: which is not .NET shit?
[16:53] <SIxNine> not all that hard really
[16:53] <Bink> well hard for me
[16:53] <SIxNine> lotta companies haven't moved onto .net
[16:53] <Bink> i have no degree
[16:53] <SIxNine> well
[16:53] <toad_> w.r.t. MMORPGs: the server should only allow valid operations for the logged-in user. cheats will therefore be limited to things like macros and artificially good visibility. AFAICS you can't prevent macros short of trusted computing. you can either try to make it harder, or integrate it into the engine and let everyone do it.
[16:53] <SIxNine> thats diff
[16:53] <Bink> the jobs i worked for, went out of business, so no references or proof
[16:54] <SIxNine> u should still be able to put it down
[16:54] <Bink> my best option, and maybe my only option to getting a good job, is to start my own by being self-employed
[16:54] <SIxNine> the only thing you can do self employed with mim legal risk in IT = web sites
[16:54] <Bink> well im going to be writing some software and selling it
[16:55] <SIxNine> beware of patents
[16:55] <Bink> i know legal risk, but i will be starting out broke, so if they sue me, they sue me
[16:55] <Bink> i know software patent nonsense
[16:55] <SIxNine> just remember they are out there
[16:55] <SIxNine> because if you make anything remotely successful
[16:55] <Bink> no matter what software you write, someone somewhere can sue you for patents
[16:55] <Bink> linux violates 900 different software patents
[16:56] <Bink> the best thing to do with software patents, is to just ignore it
[16:56] <SIxNine> linux I think only hits like 200 or under
[16:56] <Bink> and go about your business
[16:56] <SIxNine> which is acutally good
[16:56] <SIxNine> for as big as it is
[16:56] <Bink> you do NOT want to know what patents you may or may not violate, because of the trebble damages
[16:56] <toad_> [16:01] <nextgens> warez is bad for open source
[16:56] <toad_> [16:01] <nextgens> I'm happy it's not on freenet
[16:56] <toad_> agreed
[16:56] <SIxNine> I didn't say you look at them
[16:56] <SIxNine> u never want to research patents
[16:57] <toad_> it undermines attempts to create a viable alternative
[16:57] <SIxNine> ever
[16:57] <Bink> and as i said, i will start out broke, so if anyone sues me, they will lose more money then me
[16:57] <toad_> lets people feed their crack habit when they should be going cold turkey
[16:57] <SIxNine> I'm saying start making plans to deal with the patent system
[16:57] <Bink> and lastly, if i start to make money, i will start patenting all the nonsense i can myself
[16:57] <SIxNine> in case you do get something good
[16:57] <Bink> so i will have some nonsense patents to throw back at them, if i get sued for patents
[16:57] <Bink> patents should be treated like MAD (mutual assured destruction)
[16:58] <Bink> so you have your nonsense patents, and they have theirs, and you both fire your missiles at the same time
[16:58] <SIxNine> well
[16:58] <SIxNine> no
[16:58] <Bink> so if i start to make money, ill patent all the nonsense i can in my own code
[16:58] <SIxNine> even a nonsense patent can screw you man
[16:58] <SIxNine> until you get pretty large
[16:58] <Bink> ill patent every word, if i have to
[16:58] <SIxNine> it comes down to money
[16:58] <Bink> your not listening
[16:58] <SIxNine> do u have 5 million to fight with?
[16:58] <Bink> im saying, i will get my own nonsense patents too
[16:59] <SIxNine> doesn't matter if u don't have the mon