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[2:01] <Desomate> help me
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[2:38] <electrosy> i have forwarded the port on my router, i have been running my node a couple of days, and i get this nat firewall message. whats the story with that?
[2:41] <Zothar> The message may be sticking around erroneously; I think I remember seeing a bug in Mantis about something like that
[2:55] <CIA-14> zothar * r11065 /trunk/apps/pyFreenet/updater.py: Add the beginnings of updater.py so that it has something to self-update to
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[3:34] <edt> freenet no longer auto updates? Now it downloads and asks... Why? I have not changed my config. Are others seeing this?
[3:35] <edt> something reset my config option...
[3:37] <Zothar> edt: it could be because of a change made to the code recently; could be a bug; dunno for sure; I haven't ever used the fully automatic update
[3:40] <CIA-14> zothar * r11066 /trunk/apps/pyFreenet/refbot.py: refbot: Fixed bug in don't add self check (found by alphaNick)
[3:42] <_ph00> edt iot did autoupdate 999 to 1000 for me
[3:48] <CIA-14> zothar * r11067 /trunk/apps/pyFreenet/updater.py: updater: Small msg tweak for development testing
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[3:49] <_ph00> uh
[3:49] <_ph00> btw
[3:50] <_ph00> I re-recieved a n2nm after restart.
[3:50] <CIA-14> zothar * r11068 /trunk/apps/pyFreenet/ (minibot.py refbot.py updater.py): typo
[3:50] <_ph00> I'm restarting again to see if it shows up again
[3:50] <Zothar> OK
[3:50] <Zothar> perhaps we can catch the bug in action
[3:51] <_ph00> no, it's not there. Maybe the sender actually sent it twice
[3:52] <_ph00> (I'll tell you in case it shows up again)
[4:05] <Zothar> OK
[4:06] <Zothar> I haven't personally been able to see it in the wild yet; I'll probably try to get it to show up after I/someone adds an FCP interface to N2NMs (and thus N2NTMs)
[4:07] <_ph00> oh
[4:07] <_ph00> ok
[4:07] <_ph00> it was a N2NTM then
[4:07] <_ph00> with a T
[4:08] <_ph00> anyways, I re-restarted after updating freenet-ext to #9 and the msg is not there, so I guess it was actually sent twice
[4:08] <Zothar> (yeah, since N2NMs didn't exist in production until 1000 :)
[4:10] <_ph00> I didn't think about the difference (as I didn't even know that non-T messages were being implemented)
[4:10] <_ph00> I simply thpought "node to node message" and 'acronymized' it
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[4:11] <Zothar> that's the generic version; specifically we're just dealing with node to node text messages at the moment
[4:11] <_ph00> k
[4:12] <Zothar> it's a bad/cumbersome name and I/we should come up with something better... ...not now though. Hacking on a pyfcp updater... :)
[4:13] <_ph00> hm... I was thinking "straight" messages (as stright from one to another node, but that wouldn't work because some smartass wouls start taking about "gay messages" in no time
[4:14] <_ph00> how about "direct messages" ?
[4:15] <_ph00> (oh... you said "not now". nm, then)
[4:16] <_ph00> anonymouse; are you around? are you aware that your node is still running 994?
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[4:29] <electrosy> http://e-privacy.firenze.linux.it/2002/freenet/freenet_0.3/lang/en/index.php%3Fpage=content.html is that site outdated. it talkes about KSK and MSK keys?
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[4:31] <_ph00> someone who can set himself to op should add #freenet-de to the topic in #freenet-refs
[4:31] <Zothar> MSKs don't exist in 0.7, that much I know
[4:31] <_ph00> (here too)
[4:31] <Zothar> 0.7 would require docs that are at least from 2005 or later
[4:32] <Zothar> _ph00: I don't have that priv
[4:32] <electrosy> thanks.
[4:32] <_ph00> someone who do will read the logs sooner or later....
[4:32] <_ph00> (and probably won't give a damn)
[4:32] <Zothar> yeah, well... :)
[4:32] <_ph00> not that it's soooo important anyway
[4:33] <Zothar> oh, but it _is_ :)
[4:33] <_ph00> is it?
[4:33] <_ph00> no one is using those language channels anyways
[4:33] <_ph00> I'm not in -de as I don't speak german, but -es and -se are quite dead
[4:34] <_ph00> -it is wiorking, whot the same 4 people all the time (which is a start, anyway)
[4:34] <electrosy> does anyone know how to check what version of jsite i have?
[4:34] <_ph00> the only one that goes strong is -fr
[4:37] <JustMe> electrosy: help about will tell you if it is running
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[5:36] <CIA-14> zothar * r11069 /trunk/apps/pyFreenet/updater.py: updater: big chunk of code, but lacking a major feature and not cleaned up from development/debugging yet.
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[6:02] <_ph00> hehe ("baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.")
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[6:41] <electrosy> freenet is giving me that unknown external IP error.
[6:41] <electrosy> what can i do about it?
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[6:59] <Ralith> electrosy, put your ip in the temporary hint
[7:02] <electrosy> no i dont wanna do that.
[7:02] <electrosy> i want a professionals oppinion about it.
[7:04] <Ralith> ...
[7:14] <_ph00> electrosy; use IP address override
[7:15] <_ph00> (I'm no pro, but what the hell...)
[7:15] <_ph00> well, try 'temporary hint' first
[7:15] <_ph00> then if it still doesn't work, use override
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[7:37] <electrosy> yea, last time i just gave it the first two numbers and it worked. but what does it need it for, it seems to work just fine?
[7:37] <electrosy> yea, i got build .1000 running now. yee haa.
[7:42] <_ph00> ANY chan op, plz help
[7:43] <_ph00> the 'lucilla' bot is having problem, it keeps entering and exiting -ref, plz temporarly ban it until I contact its owner
[7:50] <_ph00> edt nextgens sleon any of you around?
[7:50] <_ph00> (read my previous msg)
[7:51] <_ph00> same problem on freenet-chat
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[9:58] <nextgens> hi
[9:59] <nextgens> _ph00> there is no lucilla there
[9:59] <nextgens> _ph00> btw, what kind of bot is it ?
[10:00] <_ph00> the gyu is back
[10:00] <_ph00> he killed the bot
[10:00] <_ph00> thx anyway
[10:01] <_ph00> it's abot that announces the existence of those non-english channels once every hour or so. He wanted to set it every 30 min but we agreed at that was too often
[10:02] <nextgens> I told you that's not a solution
[10:02] <nextgens> topics are there for such purpose
[10:03] <_ph00> that's what I told him
[10:03] <nextgens> maybe I could se a welcome message
[10:03] <_ph00> (that you didn't like the idea)
[10:03] <_ph00> but a welcome message would be worse....
[10:04] <_ph00> it would send a message eact time a user joins, making the total number of messages way higher (and more annoying)
[10:05] <nextgens> but it wouldn't bother everyone
[10:05] <nextgens> hence it's far better
[10:05] <_ph00> you mean a welcome PM?
[10:05] <_ph00> hm
[10:05] <nextgens> yes
[10:05] <_ph00> I guess that can be done
[10:05] <_ph00> ok
[10:05] <_ph00> I'll tell him
[10:06] <nextgens> not with a f*cing bot
[10:06] <nextgens> using irc services
[10:06] <_ph00> maybe tha't better if you talk with the bot guy himself
[10:07] <_ph00> I'll send him here asap
[10:07] <_ph00> anyways, the welcom PM thing souns good to me
[10:07] <_ph00> yeah, OK, I hope you got it despite the spelling...
[10:09] <MineHaunter> nextgens so, could you set an entrymsg to chanserv on channel #freenet-refs ?
[10:10] <nextgens> sure I could
[10:10] <_ph00> cool
[10:10] <nextgens> but the message needs to be carefully choosen
[10:11] <_ph00> I know that's what topics are for, but as most of us know, people don't read topics...
[10:11] <nextgens> _ph00> most people don't use irc
[10:11] <nextgens> _ph00> most people dont' use freenet
[10:12] <_ph00> heh
[10:12] <nextgens> most people don't know how to read ;)
[10:12] <MineHaunter> well, I don't like the idea that freenet or whatever should be elite only
[10:12] <_ph00> it shouldn't
[10:12] <_ph00> it should be as widespread as possible, I think
[10:13] <MineHaunter> so I think we could make things easier, don't you?
[10:13] <_ph00> the problem is, only those with reading skills, electricity, a PC and some computer skill, who live in a not-too-repressive country or better can use freenet
[10:13] <_ph00> which makes it de facto elite
[10:14] <_ph00> yes, making it easier for as many as possible is good
[10:14] <nextgens> anyway: I won't set any entry message unless it has been reviewed and agreed on @devl
[10:14] <nextgens> so post there a proposal if you want me to do something :)
[10:15] <nextgens> contraints are :
[10:15] <nextgens> 1) it shouldn't be too long
[10:15] <nextgens> 2) it should recall how to swap references
[10:15] <nextgens> 3) it should announce l10n chanels
[10:16] <nextgens> and tell that the only official chanel is #freenet
[10:16] <nextgens> btw, is there one 'n' or two in chanel ?
[10:16] <_ph00> channel
[10:16] <MineHaunter> lol
[10:16] <_ph00> chanel is coco
[10:16] <nextgens> :p
[10:17] <_ph00> anyways, OK those rules make sense to me
[10:17] <MineHaunter> something like the current topic could be ok
[10:18] <_ph00> maybe a bit too long...
[10:18] <_ph00> but using the current topic as a template is good
[10:18] <_ph00> a slightly modified version of the current topic should do fine
[10:19] <_ph00> how do you opst stuff @devl? is that a mailing list?
[10:19] <_ph00> post*
[10:20] <MineHaunter> "Welcome to #freenet-refs. Please exchange you freenet references here, but DO NOT paste raw references into the channel. | The main channel of the Freent Project is #freenet | try also language specific channels: #freenet-fr, #freenet-se, #freenet-es, #freenet-it"
[10:20] <MineHaunter> something like this
[10:20] <_ph00> add -de
[10:21] <nextgens> we can do it much longer
[10:21] <nextgens> it wouldn't matter if it's 3-4 lines long
[10:23] <_ph00> how about
[10:23] <_ph00> This is #freenet-refs, the Freenet ref exchanging channel. DO NOT paste raw references here, use a paste-bin. | Support: #freenet | Language-specific support: #freenet-fr, #freenet-se, #freenet-es, #freenet-it, #freenet-de
[10:24] <_ph00> hm... I guess we could add a couple of links if we can make it longer
[10:24] <MineHaunter> then you could add a link to bulix.org and s-coding.nl
[10:24] <_ph00> to the faq, to the main web site, the wiki and a pastebin
[10:28] <_ph00> Welcome to #freenet-refs, the Freenet ref exchanging channel | DO NOT paste raw references here, use a paste-bin, such as http://dark-code.bulix.org |Web: http://freenetproject.org | FAQ: http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | Support: #freenet | Language-specific support: #freenet-fr, #freenet-se, #freenet-es, #freenet-it, #freenet-de
[10:28] <nextgens> would you please do your drafts offchannel ?
[10:28] <nextgens> and as I said : it might be more than one line long
[10:29] <_ph00> those are proposals...
[10:29] <_ph00> and OK, I'll try to get to a definitive version to post @devl
[10:30] <_ph00> anyways, what's wrong with one long line? You prefer three or four short lines?
[10:31] <_ph00> <whine> ww--ww--wwhaaaa!!!! one user told me to fuck off!!! </whine>
[10:32] <MineHaunter> nextgens: sorry for consuming your precious bandwidth by discussing this issue on this channel
[10:34] <_ph00> well, we must admit that he's not completely wrong, this is the support channel, we can try versions of the welcome message on -chat...
[10:35] <MineHaunter> I was not trying versions, I was just suggesting a possible entry msg
[10:36] <_ph00> well, that's what I was doing too, but we still need the approval of the "great counseil"
[10:36] <_ph00> which, if I understand correctly, we should ask for somewhere else
[10:36] <_ph00> @ devl, it is
[10:37] <_ph00> (whatever *that* is)
[10:37] <_ph00> I suspect it's a mailing list
[10:37] <MineHaunter> it is
[10:37] <_ph00> are you in that list?
[10:37] <MineHaunter> no
[10:37] <_ph00> me neither
[10:37] <_ph00> do we know anyone who is?
[10:38] <_ph00> nextgens; check out what's happening on -refs plz
[10:38] <_ph00> huh... no need thx anyway
[10:38] <nextgens> ?
[10:39] <_ph00> no, np, the guy started sending the same line over and over like 1000 times, and got auto kicked out for flooding
[10:39] <_ph00> no real problem, I msg'd you for soon
[10:40] <_ph00> there he is again...
[10:40] <_ph00> slower this time
[10:40] <_ph00> and he's not getting auto kicked out this time
[10:43] <_ph00> nextgens; maybe you should look at what that guy tommy is doing after all...
[10:43] <_ph00> on -refs
[10:44] <nextgens> _ph00> I'm there
[10:44] <_ph00> k
[10:44] <nextgens> and a staffer is too
[10:44] <_ph00> kk
[10:46] <nextgens> so far he hasn't missbehaved
[10:47] <MineHaunter> lol
[10:47] <_ph00> he hasnt?!
[10:47] <_ph00> well, ok. so I guess sending the same line 1000 times is an acceptable behavior
[10:48] <MineHaunter> come on, you tell me not to "spam" this channel with proposals about the entrymsg and a flood on -refs is ok?
[10:48] <nextgens> I haven't seen him doing it
[10:48] <MineHaunter> you were on the channel when he did
[10:48] <nextgens> oh ?
[10:48] * nextgens has an anti-repeat module loaded :$
[10:49] <MineHaunter> I see...
[10:50] <_ph00> heh
[10:51] <_ph00> ok, then, that explains everything
[10:51] <_ph00> (it's even kinda funny)
[10:51] <nextgens> [10:50] --- | Script: Unloaded script norepeat
[10:51] <nextgens> that should do it now
[10:51] <MineHaunter> he stopped spamming (for now) :)
[10:53] <_ph00> I guess just saying "stop sending your damn url every minute" will get him to start flooding again, but that's the same (unfair) technique the police use when the actually *make* a crime happen instead of trying to catch those who commit crimes
[10:54] <_ph00> hm... I guess I should learn how to write more clearly...
[10:54] <nextgens> have your peers updated to #1000 yet ?
[10:55] <_ph00> nyways, I mean, provocation to make him start flooding again wouldn't be "fair", we're here to help freenet keep going, not to play cops
[10:55] <_ph00> nextgens; mine autoupdated to #1000 but not to #8, I had to manually update to get freenet-ext #9
[10:55] <_ph00> I mean "not to #9" of course
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[11:03] <_ph00> oh, the question was abiout *peers* not own nodes...
[11:03] <_ph00> OK
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[11:04] <_ph00> some 50% of them (roughly) are on 1000, the others on 999 and one on 994 (I sent him a n2ntm and told him to update a couple of days ago, but he didn't)
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[12:00] <lat> how do I update correctly? ... update.sh on linux throws an java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException
[12:02] * mizery_guts (n=miz@) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.1")
[12:02] <_ph00> huh...
[12:02] <_ph00> I'm no freenet "pro" but I suspect yu may have the wrong java version
[12:03] <_ph00> "proper" way to update *is* actually update.sh
[12:03] <_ph00> ./update.sh
[12:07] <lat> hm, ok ... then maybe I'll try a reinstall
[12:09] <_ph00> no, don't
[12:09] <lat> you are right, wrong version is called
[12:09] <_ph00> I mean
[12:09] <_ph00> don't reainstall the node
[12:09] <_ph00> (I guess you meant reinstalling java)
[12:10] <_ph00> but you know, some ppl are so damn quick at rinstalling the whole node as soon as somthing goes wrong...
[12:11] <_ph00> maybe you don't even need to reinstall java, only to set the PATH
[12:12] <lat> no, probably won't reinstall it ... installed yesterday another java-version and now it's mixed up ... yeah, maybe it's the PATH
[12:15] <lat> yes, was only the PATH, thx
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[12:35] <sopues> #1000 bw-usage is going up again, it seems
[12:35] <sopues> not sure if its a bad sign yet though
[12:35] <sopues> # Output Rate: 36.6 KiBps
[12:35] <sopues> # Input Rate: 37.5 KiBps
[12:35] <sopues> way way higher than pre-999 normal levels
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[12:37] <sopues> hi toad
[12:38] <sopues> <- sandos
[12:38] <_ph00> what is this? "use your second nick" day ?
[12:38] * _ph00 is now known as luke771
[12:39] <luke771> msg /nickserv identify ciccioformaggio
[12:39] * luke771 is now known as ph00
[12:39] <ph00> heh
[12:40] <ph00> not only the / at the wrong place, I even misspelled the word
[12:40] <ph00> (really)
[12:40] <amphibian> hi
[12:40] <ph00> hi
[12:40] <ph00> nick _ph00
[12:40] * ph00 is now known as _ph00
[12:40] <_ph00> I must have some problem with the slashes today
[12:41] <_ph00> anyways, I found out the real IP of that tommy guy
[12:41] * amphibian is now known as toad_
[12:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
[12:46] <_ph00> does anyone know what happened to anonymouse? he seems to be on line here, but he hsan't asnwered a msg for a long time, and his node is still running 994. I both PM'd him here, and n2ntm'd a 'please update' message, no answer
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[12:56] * _ph00 (n=z@) Quit ("Leaving")
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[13:54] <_ph00> sorry, my node is down right now (my gf is forcing me to windows to have voice conversation on msn messenger, I'm trying to get ther to install skype but that looks like a tough "mission")
[13:55] <_ph00> any of you guys know about the FF 'stubleupon' extension? she needs some help with a problem and I'm pretty clueless (meet me in #freenet-chat)
[13:55] <_ph00> of, I forgot ,[OT]
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[14:10] <nextgens> _ph00> maybe you should report what he said to cops
[14:11] <_ph00> nextgens: maybe I should...
[14:11] <_ph00> we can discuss that later, I' kinda busy right now
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[14:30] * _ph00 (n=chatzill@) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.8/2006102516]")
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[14:43] <mario69> wrapper version mismatch?
[14:44] <mario69> WARNING - The Wrapper jar file currently in use is version "3.2.3" while the version of the Wrapper which launched this JVM is "3.2.1".
[14:44] <mario69> this is from wrapper.log after a complete stop/start cycle.
[14:45] <mario69> Freenet 0.7 Build #1000 r11063
[14:45] <Zothar_Work> I haven't yet encountered a case where the mismatch was a problem; it can be fixed by compiling/downloading the latest natives for your platform
[14:46] <mario69> ok
[14:47] <mario69> the warning message is a bit misleading, then. First thing I thought was some stale lock file or the like.
[14:50] <mario69> http://pastebin.ca/259497
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[15:22] <_ph00> nextgens; what should I tell the cops, you think? The guy didn't do anything illegal, he was only annoying.
[15:22] <_ph00> and even if he did something illegal, catching criminals is not my job
[15:27] <CIA-14> nextgens * r11070 /trunk/apps/installer/installclasspath/linux/update.sh: Doh. That's a YetAnother bash-ism
[15:29] * nextgens blames frost users for whinning
[15:39] <fasta> nextgens: you mean whining? ;)
[15:40] <nextgens> yes
[15:40] * IMCensored1_ (n=KMIntern@) has joined #freenet
[15:42] <nextgens> that's a good thing your correct me : so that I can improve my spelling
[15:43] <nextgens> sleon> may you update your node soon please ?
[15:44] <nextgens> sleon> I get LOTS of unmatchable packets from your node and wonder if it's releated anyhow to the "keytracker" changes
[15:45] * sandos (n=sandos@) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[15:49] <fasta> nextgens: from what country are you?
[15:49] <nextgens> France
[15:50] <nextgens> we (french) use to speak/write bad english
[15:50] <fasta> nextgens: I know
[15:50] <fasta> nextgens: is it the education system>
[15:50] <fasta> nextgens: ?
[15:50] <nextgens> I guess yes
[15:50] <fasta> D'accord ;)
[15:51] <fasta> Probably wrong too
[15:51] <nextgens> no, that's fine
[15:52] <fasta> Je deteste la language de la France. Ok, too?
[15:52] <nextgens> no
[15:52] <nextgens> it would be "le language"
[15:52] <nextgens> but that doesn't sound good
[15:53] <nextgens> we would say "je n'aime pas le fran?ais"
[15:54] <nextgens> or "je d?teste m'exprimer en fran?ais"
[15:54] <nextgens> or "je d?teste la langue fran?aise" even
[15:55] <_ph00> je deteste la France
[15:55] <_ph00> :P
[15:55] <_ph00> heh
[15:55] <_ph00> deteste sounds almost the sme in a bunch of languages
[15:55] <nextgens> that doesn't mean the same thing
[15:56] <_ph00> "I hate france"?
[15:57] * IMCensored1 (n=KMIntern@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:57] * IMCensored1_ is now known as IMCensored1
[15:57] <fasta> Isn't it "The French are pedos!" in #freenet? ;)
[15:57] <nextgens> it's "I hate England" / "I hate communicating in english"
[15:57] <fasta> nextgens: yes, I looked up exprimer in wiktionary
[15:58] <fasta> nextgens: although, I figured it would mean express before I looked.
[16:01] * MikeW (i=Mike@) has joined #freenet
[16:02] <_ph00> nextgens; yes, that's what I meant
[16:03] <_ph00> and je deteste les fran??aises would be "I hate Frenchmen"
[16:03] <_ph00> not so difficult ... so far
[16:03] <nextgens> no
[16:03] <_ph00> I can actually read asterix in French and get almost all of it
[16:03] <nextgens> that would be "I hate french women"
[16:03] <_ph00> but I'm bad at speaking
[16:04] <_ph00> how is the masculine plural for "fran??cais"
[16:04] <_ph00> ?
[16:05] <_ph00> and the article 'les' is the same in both masculine and femenine form?
[16:05] <nextgens> _ph00> it's already a masculine plural
[16:06] <nextgens> yes it's the same
[16:06] <_ph00> (well, I heard "lui dire" used as "tell her" but I don't know whether that is gramatically correct)
[16:06] <_ph00> so, what's the maswculine singular?
[16:06] <_ph00> fran??ais (as in the people) can be both one or many?
[16:07] <nextgens> yep
[16:07] <nextgens> in french it's the same for "tell him/her"
[16:07] <_ph00> I mean "je suis fran??ais" and "nous sommes fran??ais" are both correct?
[16:07] <nextgens> it's lui dire
[16:07] <nextgens> yes
[16:08] <_ph00> see? that's not so diccicult to understand if you already speak a bunch of latin-based languages, but getting the grammar right is a bit harder, as it not *quite* like other latin languages (italian, spanish etc)
[16:09] <_ph00> (expecially the pronounce, but you get used to that)
[16:09] <_ph00> I mean, *you* are already used to that...
[16:09] <_ph00> *I*
[16:10] * ok_ok (n=chatzill@) has joined #freenet
[16:10] <_ph00> well, OK, let's drop this. after all this should be the support channel...
[16:11] <fasta> You could start a freesite
[16:11] <_ph00> who, me?
[16:11] <_ph00> 'bout what?
[16:11] <_ph00> languages?
[16:11] <fasta> _ph00: yes
[16:12] <_ph00> I do speak like 5 languages
[16:12] <fasta> _ph00: see? Plenty to write about
[16:12] <_ph00> (ok, say 4 and a half, with half french)
[16:12] <_ph00> but I don't speak any of them well enough to write about that
[16:13] <_ph00> (not even my native language, actually)
[16:13] * ok_ok (n=chatzill@) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:13] <_ph00> and, btw
[16:13] <_ph00> I'm *way* to lazy to build a freesite (or a regular web page)
[16:14] <_ph00> the only one I made was a buch of blogs linked together so they looked like a web site, but I don't have to pay for it
[16:14] <_ph00> about intalling linux in dual boot, for dummies
[16:14] <_ph00> and even *athat* was a lot of work
[16:15] <_ph00> luke771.splinder.com
[16:15] <_ph00> what the hell, this nick isn't anonymous anyway
[16:17] <fasta> Staying anonymous is next to impossible if your family can also access that content.
[16:17] * _ph00 doesn't have a family
[16:18] <fasta> No aunts, etc?
[16:18] <_ph00> well, I do in the sense of dad's family, and all the relatives
[16:18] <_ph00> yes, that kind of family
[16:18] <_ph00> no wife and kids
[16:18] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[16:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:19] <_ph00> but what content would make me less anonymous if my aunts accessed it?
[16:19] <fasta> _ph00: if you published something on Freenet and you would like to stay anonymous
[16:19] <fasta> _ph00: algorithms can also do it, btw
[16:20] <_ph00> and how would they know that the not-anonymous guy known as luke771 is the same guy as the not-anonymous guy known as _ph00, if they don't even know what irc is, and I use this nick only here?
[16:20] <_ph00> and I don't use this nick on freenet
[16:20] <fasta> _ph00: that's not what I mean.
[16:20] <_ph00> and my family don't even know what freenet is...
[16:21] <fasta> _ph00: in theory...
[16:21] <fasta> _ph00: nm
[16:21] <_ph00> no, keep taking...
[16:21] <_ph00> l
[16:21] <_ph00> if there's risk I didn't think of, I want to know
[16:22] * peeeeew (i=peeeeew@) has joined #freenet
[16:23] <fasta> _ph00: the general risk is this: when you publish something on the web, and you publish something on Freenet, then those two can be linked together when enough data is available assuming the same distribution.
[16:24] <fasta> _ph00: By talking on IRC you already are taking a small risk.
[16:24] <fasta> _ph00: Well, I don't know whether it's small.
[16:24] <_ph00> oh, you're talking about reacognizing the writing style, most frequent mistakes etc?
[16:25] <fasta> _ph00: yes
[16:25] <_ph00> there's one trick, *don't* write on freenet in the sme language you use on the *regular* internet
[16:25] <fasta> _ph00: but people that already know you don't need the webpage part
[16:25] <fasta> _ph00: yes, but that's hard.
[16:25] <_ph00> same*
[16:26] <fasta> _ph00: also, you don't want to appear like a fool, I think.
[16:26] <fasta> _ph00: I could talk like: "hi m8, how r y doing?"
[16:26] <_ph00> also another trick would be write a paper and then change the style and put some random mistake/misspelling here and there
[16:27] <fasta> _ph00: I think that only helps you by a constant factor
[16:27] <fasta> _ph00: You really need to change a lot to beat algorithms.
[16:27] <_ph00> but I guess you need to be a really "intresting" target if they are considering using speech recognition on your writing style
[16:28] <fasta> _ph00: that's not called speech recognition.
[16:28] <_ph00> at that point, you could simply put down some points in short, and have someone else to write it down as a paper
[16:28] <_ph00> (whatever it's called)
[16:28] <_ph00> or, write it in another language and translate litterally
[16:29] <_ph00> or both
[16:29] <_ph00> and of course the best of all tricks *dont* write :P
[16:29] <fasta> _ph00: Some authors write using a pseudonym, one of them got recognized by machine learning people.
[16:29] <_ph00> yes
[16:29] <fasta> _ph00: but the problem was:
[16:30] <_ph00> but they are not actually trying to beat those techniques, they may even feel good about being recognized by their style
[16:30] <fasta> "how to communicate anonymously?"
[16:30] <fasta> _ph00: true
[16:30] <_ph00> stictching together snips and phrases ccopied from other papers?
[16:30] <fasta> _ph00: also, I think the NSA can break any code that's given to them.
[16:30] <fasta> _ph00: so, Freenet only buys you some "security"
[16:31] <_ph00> I don't know whether to believe this but I heard that NSA couldn't figure 1337speak out...
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[16:31] <fasta> _ph00: They hire the best mathematicians in the world.
[16:31] <_ph00> and they probably wouldn't figure out
[16:32] <_ph00> 370H55V 0773H
[16:32] * Mike2K is now known as MikeW
[16:32] <_ph00> "tell the president he's holding the message upside down"
[16:33] <fasta> _ph00: heh, that's funny
[16:33] <_ph00> I mean, when they're looking for advanced tricks, you can often fool them with easy tricks
[16:33] <fasta> _ph00: you do 1337speak manually?
[16:34] <_ph00> (but I wouldn't count on that)
[16:34] <_ph00> yes
[16:34] <_ph00> well, I don't do 133t speak, actually
[16:34] <fasta> In large amounts of text this is easily defeated.
[16:34] <_ph00> but if I would I would do like
[16:34] <fasta> So, I don't buy the story.
[16:34] <_ph00> 13375p34k
[16:35] <_ph00> write small amounts of text?
[16:36] <fasta> _ph00: another thing is that in general a series of bits doesn't carry any meaning per se.
[16:36] <_ph00> anyways, wrting style can easily be recognized, expecially if you're using a language other than your native one
[16:36] <fasta> _ph00: so, although the message could be "kill president at 9 am", it could mean something else.
[16:36] <fasta> _ph00: right
[16:36] <_ph00> but how does that have anything to do with my aunts?
[16:37] <fasta> _ph00: your aunt doesn't need a collection of web articles you have written. She already knows you.
[16:37] <_ph00> she doesnt know my writing style
[16:37] <_ph00> and she doesnt even suspect that I would say *such things*
[16:38] <_ph00> well... maybe siomeone else would
[16:38] <_ph00> ok
[16:38] <_ph00> I get the point
[16:38] <fasta> :)
[16:38] <fasta> _ph00: do you know how the version numbering works?
[16:38] <_ph00> I have a traick that may work
[16:39] <_ph00> having your paper edited a bunch of times by different people
[16:39] <_ph00> but then again, all those people would *know* that you wrote it...
[16:39] <_ph00> what version numbering? freenet builds?
[16:40] <fasta> _ph00: non-svn builds that get uploaded to Freenet
[16:40] <_ph00> they're simply numbered in progression afaik
[16:41] <_ph00> 1,2,3, etc
[16:41] <_ph00> current = 1000
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[16:41] <_ph00> but I don't really know, I'm just guessing
[16:41] <fasta> _ph00: I didn't see 997
[16:42] <fasta> _ph00: I thought it would be that scheme, though.
[16:42] <_ph00> sometimes a verion comes out and another dev changes one line here and there, and another verion comes out in a few minutes (hours)
[16:42] <_ph00> and I did see 997, anyways
[16:43] <_ph00> my node updated 996 to 998 directly iirc, but I did see a bunch of peers on 997 for a shjort while
[16:44] <toad_> fasta: how much can be prevented just by using a spell checker?
[16:44] <_ph00> it happens faorly often that two or more new versions come out so close after each other that your node hops over one or two, because already two or three newer have come out since last update
[16:45] <_ph00> a lot?
[16:45] <fasta> toad_: Not much, I think.
[16:45] <_ph00> but I still would have to re-read what I write
[16:46] <_ph00> huh... a spell checker is not really the answer, it's more about the way you make up your own phrases if I understand it correctly
[16:46] <_ph00> and *that* is very personal, and very difficult to disguise
[16:46] <fasta> Right
[16:46] <_ph00> but it can be done, if you0re good enough at languages
[16:47] <_ph00> at least, you can try to make it more difficult for them
[16:47] <toad_> i see, so it's more grammar and phrasing than spelling
[16:47] <_ph00> mostly phrasing
[16:48] <_ph00> you can check for grammar errors, and have someone else double check, and get rid of all of them
[16:48] <_ph00> still your phrasing is very personal
[16:48] <_ph00> like... recognizing a musician by the way he plays
[16:49] <_ph00> oh...
[16:49] <_ph00> a raly cheap trick, but it may work
[16:49] <_ph00> is imitating someone else's style
[16:49] <_ph00> really*
[16:50] * toad_ supposes it's like all stego; it's your model of the process versus their model
[16:50] <toad_> whoever has the better model wins
[16:50] <_ph00> or using a terribly outdated languages, like 17th century English
[16:50] <_ph00> hm...
[16:50] <_ph00> I got it
[16:51] <fasta> toad_: it are just bitstreams.
[16:51] <_ph00> imitating *each* time a *different* author's style should make it really difficult (less to check against)
[16:51] <fasta> toad_: it can use any feature of that stream that they they like
[16:51] <_ph00> (they could still go by "if he's imitating someone, anyone, it's probably ph00)
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[16:52] <toad_> hmmm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6187486.stm
[16:52] <sanity> hi toad
[16:52] <toad_> hi sanity
[16:53] <sanity> toad_: i'm in portugal
[16:53] <toad_> sanity: nice, why?
[16:53] <sanity> toad_: using a frighteningly slow modem
[16:53] <sanity> toad_: a family get-together
[16:53] <sanity> toad_: any new interesting gems of knowledge from mroger's sims?
[16:54] <toad_> sanity: some yes
[16:54] <toad_> sanity: some nice graphs
[16:54] <toad_> apparently advisory backoff is much better than mandatory backoff
[16:55] <sanity> toad_: i saw some of those
[16:55] <toad_> which is good, it means I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!
[16:55] <sanity> toad_: anything we can apply to immediate effect?
[16:55] <toad_> (that doesn't happen often with this voodoo!)
[16:55] <toad_> not yet no, he needs to simulate heterogenous networks first
[16:55] <fasta> sanity: do you still run a node?
[16:55] <toad_> and see whether we can really do without backoff
[16:55] <sanity> fasta: yes, but not right now
[16:55] <fasta> sanity: you removed me.
[16:56] <_ph00> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6187486.stm <== I think JAP already does something like that
[16:56] <_ph00> (in theory, and if it wasn't backdoored)
[16:56] <toad_> well, backoff + throttle looks more or less the same as throttle only on performance, and if we need it to deal with slow nodes that's fine
[16:56] <toad_> the problem is the current sims show "neither" performing much better
[16:56] <sanity> toad_: well, what about his token-based approach?
[16:57] <fasta> sanity: should I remove you too?
[16:57] <toad_> he hasn't shown any graphs of that yet
[16:57] <toad_> i think there may be more work to do on that
[16:57] <fasta> sanity: or will you add me again?
[16:57] <sanity> fasta: i haven't removed you, my node is down
[16:57] <sanity> fasta: it will be down for about 2 weeks
[16:57] <fasta> sanity: 13w6d
[16:58] <_ph00> sanity: I removed you after days of inactivity, if you still have zaphod and still want to peer you should re-send me your ref
[16:58] <fasta> sanity: that's the time your node didn't connect to me.
[16:58] <sanity> well, my node won't be back up for about 2 weeks so if you guys want to remove me, that is up to you
[16:59] <fasta> sanity: Are you really really sure that you didn't remove me?
[16:59] * oierw (n=oierw@) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:59] <sanity> fasta: no
[16:59] * oierw (n=oierw@) has joined #freenet
[17:00] <fasta> sanity: I am quite positive that you did remove me. Anyway, _I_ don't mind having you on my list. The question is: do you want to?
[17:00] <sanity> fasta: fine, then remove me
[17:01] <sanity> fasta: i honestly can't remember - i'm on holiday right now on a slow connection and so i can't use my node
[17:01] <_ph00> fasta, maybe he didn't remove you after all: it happned to me that some peers nly connected once or twice and never again...
[17:01] <fasta> _ph00: how's that possible?
[17:01] <_ph00> lousy isps
[17:02] * toad_ does wonder if we need to do more for connectivity
[17:02] <toad_> if all your peers are NATed and you are NATed too and your IP changes, then you have a problem
[17:02] <toad_> this basically means that you need to be connected to at least one person who isn't NATed or is forwarded
[17:02] <_ph00> in my particular case, my very lousy isp runs a NAT where I can't port forward, that's why some peers won't connect... but I still can't figure out why some *do* connect only once or twice
[17:03] <fasta> sanity: I don't mind "waiting" a few weeks. It could be that you already have enough references, so in that case you could choose 'no'. If you are on a holiday, please, enjoy it.
[17:03] <toad_> anyway i have a couple of urgent bugs to take care of at the moment :|
[17:04] <toad_> bbiab
[17:04] <_ph00> sanity; re-send me your refs please. KNowing that you will be up in a couple of weeks is good, I removed your node because I though that you had removed me, or installed a new node or something (tell me if you need my ref again)
[17:05] <fasta> What's odd, is that I can see the version of sanity's node.
[17:06] <fasta> Can I see that also of nodes that never connected to me?
[17:06] <_ph00> no, you see the version they had when they copied their ref
[17:06] <fasta> 998 is a fairly recent version
[17:06] <_ph00> yup
[17:06] <fasta> 998 is less than 13 weeks ago
[17:06] <toad_> maybe they got it from the ARK
[17:06] <fasta> ,ARK
[17:07] <fasta> We should have a bot here, like in #debian
[17:07] <toad_> look it up on the wiki :)
[17:07] * _ph00 *hates* #debian
[17:07] <fasta> I too have some degree of lazyness, but fine.
[17:07] <_ph00> not the OS, thats fairly good
[17:08] <_ph00> but the channel is really a pain in the ass
[17:08] <fasta> searching on ARK on the wiki gives zero results.
[17:08] <fasta> That means the wiki search sucks.
[17:08] <_ph00> so edit it...
[17:08] * fasta googles
[17:08] <toad_> hmmm
[17:08] <_ph00> oops
[17:09] <_ph00> I got is as the wiki sucked
[17:09] <_ph00> (it was the wiki *search*)
[17:09] <toad_> http://wiki.freenetproject.org/AddressResolutionKey doesn't exist
[17:09] <fasta> Google didn't fail.
[17:09] <toad_> eh?
[17:09] <toad_> i thought i made one
[17:09] <fasta> http://wiki.freenetproject.org/AddressResolutionKeys
[17:09] <fasta> That one does exist
[17:09] * Urs_ShPo (n=gaim@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[17:10] <toad_> hmmm
[17:10] <toad_> you have to search for ARKs not ARK
[17:10] <fasta> toad_: can you deduce anything wrong the sanity story I just told?
[17:11] <fasta> Hmm, that's no sentence...
[17:11] <fasta> s/wrong/from
[17:11] <toad_> fasta: either it connected once and got the version, or it downloaded the ARK and got the version from that
[17:11] <toad_> fasta: i don't see what the problem is
[17:11] <toad_> anyway bbiab
[17:12] <fasta> The "problem" is that I have sanity in my list for >13 weeks and never got connected, but I do know a recent node version.
[17:15] <_ph00> maybe the time counter is fubar?
[17:16] <_ph00> I noticed that some peers expecially disconneted ones, often show as disconnected since say 2 days but I *know* they were connected some 7-8 hours ago
[17:17] <toad_> file a bug :)
[17:17] <_ph00> I should gather some more detailed data...
[17:17] * MikeW (i=Mike@) Quit ()
[17:18] <_ph00> I can't just say "I think thats fucked up"
[17:18] * _ph00 is laaaazy...
[17:18] <_ph00> but ok, I'll try to write down something when I'm positive that someting is wrong
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[17:30] <_ph00> what?!? are they trying to push "intelligent design" to be tought in *science* classes even in the UK, now?!?
[17:30] <_ph00> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6187534.stm
[17:33] <_ph00> (well, it looks like the 'slightly stupid design' people will have a much harder time in europe)
[17:33] <_ph00> </OT>
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[17:36] * damg_ (n=dima2001@) Quit ("Verlassend")
[17:37] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[18:18] <toad_> [OT] _ph00: what i heard was that it's a little more complex than that. there isn't a scientific controversy, but there is a legitimate issue in religion, politics, civil society; it can be usefully _debated_ from that perspective. schools aren't about indoctrination and brainwashing ... or at least, they shouldn't be!
[18:18] <toad_> <fasta> The "problem" is that I have sanity in my list for >13 weeks and never got connected, but I do know a recent node version.
[18:18] <toad_> it fetched the ARK
[18:19] <toad_> however you _may_ have some connection problems
[18:19] <toad_> but right now it won't connect anyway because his node is down
[18:21] <CIA-14> mrogers * r11071 /trunk/apps/load-balancing-sims/phase7/sim/ (Node.java Peer.java handlers/MessageHandler.java): Queue searches when there are no available tokens (token policies not implemented yet)
[18:21] <toad_> right, where was i?
[18:22] <_ph00> toad_, I have nothing against theaching any possible cosmologic theory in school, including creationism. It's just as possible that god created the universe and designed in detail, or that some big bang happned, or even both and at the same time, or something completely different... but that's not *science*. More lilke philosophy. Creationism shouldn't be thought in *science* calsses, that's all I'm saying. But it could (and I thnk it *should*) be
[18:22] <_ph00> discussed as a possibility in philosphy classes
[18:22] <toad_> <li>Total Output:?1.20 GiB?(8.65 KiBps)</li>
[18:22] <toad_> <li>Payload Output:?447 MiB?(3.13 KiBps) (36%)</li>
[18:22] <toad_> that's bad
[18:22] <_ph00> (np the spelling...)
[18:22] <toad_> [OT] _ph00: agreed
[18:22] <toad_> [OT] _ph00 well perhaps as an example of scientific method? i dunno
[18:23] <fasta> toad_: Can I see sanity's node version when he hasn't got me on his list?
[18:23] <nextgens> fasta> using ARKs
[18:23] <_ph00> toad_ I'm aswering that in -chat
[18:23] <toad_> fasta: you can see his node version because his node was up some times, and it didn't connect to you, but it DID insert an ARK, which you fetched
[18:23] <fasta> I think it's bad design if that's possible.
[18:23] <toad_> [OT] _ph00 good
[18:23] * nextgens suggest we leave offtopic debates to focus onto on-topic ones
[18:23] <toad_> :)
[18:23] <toad_> _ph00: i suggest you post on the relevant Frost board?
[18:24] <_ph00> nextgens is 1/2 of a second too late :P
[18:24] <toad_> nextgens: well we need to sort out the bandwidth bug ...
[18:24] <toad_> did my changes on saturday make any difference? i didn't really expect them to fix that specific issue, but they should help (generally they fix longer term stuff)
[18:24] <_ph00> toad_ sorry, I can't now (that would disclose what nickname I'm using, and no, I don't think I want to post that anonymously)
[18:25] <toad_> _ph00: ok
[18:25] <toad_> _ph00: well nextgens has a point, i need to work on bandwidth bug
[18:25] <toad_> _ph00: maybe later
[18:26] <_ph00> k
[18:27] * ShipHead (i=ShipHead@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:27] <nextgens> toad_> well, it's better now
[18:27] <toad_> that's not what everyone else is saying
[18:28] <nextgens> but after some hours of uptime, some have reported that the bug is still occuring
[18:28] <toad_> and on my node, which has been running the new code since saturday, it's got very low payload %
[18:29] <toad_> which is part of this bug i think
[18:30] <nextgens> Payload Output: 286 MiB (4.68 KiBps) (63%)
[18:30] <nextgens> nodeUptime: 17h22m
[18:30] <nextgens> with #1000
[18:35] <nextgens> I'm still getting a high input rate ...
[18:35] <nextgens> but that's because of an outdated node
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[18:47] <toad_> nextgens: it's all from that outdated node?
[18:47] * oierw (n=oierw@) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:47] <toad_> nextgens: in your view my changes have improved matters then?
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[18:53] <nextgens> yes, they have improved matters
[18:54] <nextgens> but maybe not solved them though
[18:54] <nextgens> sleon> update your node ! ;)
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[19:18] <mozillaman> Anything news-worthy? :)
[19:29] * mozillaman has news
[19:29] <mozillaman> I think I'm now have *officially* the first freesite with an RSS feed :)
[19:29] <mozillaman> http://127.0.0.1:8888/freenet:USK@jotJldLVFPDEnvRqfhBWsnXPQpOS~QrawxFjgsLZcFQ,xnNqE4Z~zMHmIUmqrA0oziUFSXNOAC7OhOOH4yhcBq4,AQABAAE/freenetwatch/33/
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[19:50] <Zothar_Work> mozillaman: I don't know about you, but the RSS feed and Firefox 1.5.0.8 on Mac OS X don't seem to agree with each other about it being RSS; I think the FProxy filter might be getting in your way, but I'm not sure on that
[19:50] * timmy2chk (n=violent@) Quit ("so what?")
[19:53] <fasta> mozillaman: it appears to be working here.
[19:53] <fasta> mozillaman: (with the proxy)
[19:58] * ShipHead (i=ShipHead@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[20:00] <mozillaman> Zothar_Work: Well, I've done all testing in FF2
[20:00] <mozillaman> Zothar_Work: Which loves the feed :P
[20:00] <mozillaman> fasta: Great!
[20:01] <fasta> mozillaman: On Iceweasel
[20:01] * mozillaman always chuckles at that name :)
[20:01] <Zothar_Work> heh
[20:01] <mozillaman> I imagine an icecube with teath and a tail
[20:02] <fasta> mozillaman: Oh, well, I might remove the whole name from the application. It only uses space.
[20:02] <fasta> We should have plugins for the packaging system.
[20:02] <fasta> That would be nice :)
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[20:03] <mozillaman> fasta++
[20:03] <mozillaman> Anything else news-worthy for freenetwatch?
[20:03] * mozillaman is always on the lookout for news 9_9
[20:03] <fasta> heh
[20:05] * mozillaman hasn't found a cooler freesite than freenetwatch yet though :(
[20:05] <mozillaman> No artists in the Freenet community
[20:19] * nextgens sets mode +v ShipHead
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[20:23] <toad_> mozillaman: how do you get it through the filter?
[20:23] <toad_> i suppose it doesn't require a text/rss MIME type?
[20:24] * sopues (n=sandos@) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:26] * MikeW (i=Mike@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:37] <mozillaman> toad_: Exactly, hence why I did it as .txt
[20:37] <mozillaman> .rss or .xml would make fproxy go bonkers
[20:38] <mozillaman> And, everything I've tested in is more than happy to parse .txt as rss :)
[20:39] <mozillaman> At the moment, I'm editing the feed.txt file manually, but I plan to make a quick script to get the title and body of each story and make the rss for me automatically
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[21:13] <toad_> <div class="infobox-content">
[21:13] <toad_> <ul><li>Total Output:?1.28 GiB?(8.59 KiBps)</li>
[21:13] <toad_> <li>Payload Output:?457 MiB?(2.99 KiBps) (34%)</li>
[21:13] <toad_> <li>Total Input:?2.39 GiB?(16.0 KiBps)</li>
[21:13] <toad_> <li>Output Rate:?931 Bps</li>
[21:13] <toad_> <li>Input Rate:?4.02 KiBps</li>
[21:13] <toad_> </ul></div>
[21:13] <toad_> hrrrm
[21:13] <toad_> something strange going on here
[21:13] <toad_> sorry for the paste, it should have been at least 2 lines shorter
[21:13] <toad_> low payload, AND low output
[21:13] <toad_> that's strange
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[21:55] <sleon> nextgens: roger
[21:56] <sleon> nextgens: node updated
[21:56] <sleon> toad_: when you gonna learn , toad :)))
[22:00] <toad_> sleon: hmmm?
[22:00] * Zothar_Work (n=chatzill@) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.76 [Firefox 1.5.0.8/2006102516]")
[22:00] <CIA-14> toad * r11072 /trunk/freenet/src/freenet/node/FNPPacketMangler.java: Logging
[22:30] <CIA-14> toad * r11073 /trunk/freenet/src/freenet/node/KeyTracker.java:
[22:30] <CIA-14> KeyTracker stuff:
[22:30] <CIA-14> completelyDeprecated needs to clear everything (never clear the sent packets list without clearing the resend lists too!).
[22:30] <CIA-14> Combine completelyDeprecated and disconnected functionality into common method clear().
[22:30] <CIA-14> This could have caused the recent problems, maybe, but I doubt it, as that requires a further bug of keeping the KT around, and I can't locate that...
[22:30] <CIA-14> Logging. Comments. Synchronization.
[22:31] <CIA-14> toad * r11074 /trunk/freenet/src/freenet/support/ (2 files): Better clear()ing and kill()ing.
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[22:35] <toad_> bbiab
[22:36] <toad_> <_ph00> one big change what that from ext #8 on, jvm mem usage and threading went dramatically down
[22:36] <toad_> nextgens: interesting
[22:37] <toad_> bbiab
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[22:56] <mozillaman> new freenetwatch online!
[22:56] <mozillaman> http://127.0.0.1:8888/freenet:USK@jotJldLVFPDEnvRqfhBWsnXPQpOS~QrawxFjgsLZcFQ,xnNqE4Z~zMHmIUmqrA0oziUFSXNOAC7OhOOH4yhcBq4,AQABAAE/freenetwatch/34/
[22:57] <electrosy> Thanks for the link.
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