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[1:47] <anonymouse> I just read something on frost that seems to be a good idea
[1:47] <anonymouse> at the beginning of freenet refs there should be warning text about how the info can identify you on the internet
[1:48] <anonymouse> i mean it's kind of a "duh" but there has been a rash of p2p lusers lately coming on to freenet and either crapping their refs indiscriminately into frost, or getting lured to do so by trolls
[1:48] <anonymouse> from the post:
[1:48] <anonymouse> Warning.1= !!! PLEASE READ THIS !!!
[1:48] <anonymouse> Warning.2=This reference contains information that can identify you on the internet.
[1:48] <anonymouse> Warning.3=Do NOT use it in any context where expect to be anonymous.
[1:48] <anonymouse> lastGoodVersion=Fred,0.7,1.0,970
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[1:49] <anonymouse> ahaha
[1:49] <anonymouse> it wasn't a ref silly bot
[1:49] <anonymouse> just an example
[1:49] <anonymouse> it must look for "last good version" or something ye?
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[2:27] <_ph00> yeah. I guess it's triggered by last good version in one word (looks like a nextegens script)
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[2:45] <_ph00> how about moving the node to another box? when freenet gets illegal, I want to keep my box clean. Now, is there any anonymous hosting service? Can I get some storage and band on a server without having to give any info about myself?
[2:45] <_ph00> "becomes illegal" or "gets banned", but OK, I think you got it anyway
[2:46] <anonymouse> i don't know.. all my hosting providers require info
[2:46] <anonymouse> i'm not concerned about myself so much. if freenet becomes outlawed where i live i will probably just stop hosting it, or host it in a country where it is legal
[2:47] <_ph00> oh and the connection between me and the server is also a problem...
[2:47] <anonymouse> of course
[2:47] <anonymouse> so i still think adding cautionary text into the node ref is a good idea
[2:48] <anonymouse> too many damn newbs going around giving the vigilantes easy targets.
[2:48] <_ph00> hm. very hard that it gets banned all over the world. and the nice thing of the internet is that you can run from your home country a rever based in aruba
[2:48] <_ph00> server*
[2:48] <_ph00> yes
[2:48] <_ph00> it is
[2:48] <anonymouse> before you know it, government agencies will be like "we have just discovered a new kind of intanets where criminals can hide"
[2:49] <anonymouse> and suddenly poof
[2:49] <_ph00> those damn trolls fooling ppl into posting refs in signed frost msgs are getting annoying
[2:49] <anonymouse> yes if it was only foolish users that got hurt i wouldn't mind
[2:49] <anonymouse> but i think it will really draw bad attention to the network
[2:51] <_ph00> what we need is a way to keep running freenet at home, but in a less evident way (a nice irst step would be true darknet) then I could run the node on a dedicated box. I was thinking about that server thing because I thought, OK, true darknet etc, but what if they spied on me, and someone gained access to my box while it's up? they would see the node
[2:52] <_ph00> the warning in the ref is a good idea
[2:52] <anonymouse> well _ph00, i think that if you are under investigation by authorities then it's probably game over
[2:52] <anonymouse> it's not realistic to believe that you can continue some activity that they disapprove of right under their noses
[2:52] <_ph00> for you and me, it's obvious that the refs include the IP etc, but we know that many people don't even realize that an IP can identify them
[2:52] <anonymouse> remember they have money and power, and freenet as far as they know is pure evil
[2:53] <anonymouse> yes exactly my point about the ref. also the IP is a little hidden in there
[2:53] <_ph00> maybe it's not realistic but it's the *right* thing to do, so if I can do with a reasonable chance of getting away with it I'll do that
[2:54] <anonymouse> ok then here is my best ideda
[2:54] <anonymouse> -d
[2:54] <anonymouse> you run a freenode on a remote server in a place where it is legal
[2:54] <anonymouse> and then all traffic between you and that server you encrypt in an openvpn tunnel
[2:55] <_ph00> but I thjink that if I try to outsmart them in secrecy, hiding spoofing etc, I'm done. I should try to do it in bright sunlight in some way that they can't do anything about... like an antarctica based node or something
[2:55] <_ph00> yes, that sounds good
[2:55] <anonymouse> your whole machine you use to access it is on an encrypted partition
[2:55] <anonymouse> and you keep it shut down when you're not there
[2:55] <anonymouse> if you want to break the law that's about the best way i can think of to do it
[2:55] <_ph00> the problem is still, what if someone gained root access while the encrypted partition is up?
[2:55] <anonymouse> like how
[2:56] <anonymouse> you mean hacking the machine?
[2:56] <_ph00> yeah, something like that
[2:56] <anonymouse> best guard against that is to run an open source system and keep it updated.. run firewall software so no services are exposed
[2:56] <anonymouse> in general follow best practices to secure it
[2:56] <_ph00> I heard about ppl hacking CIA's machines for fun, so I guess my box is not a hard target
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[2:57] <anonymouse> well i don't know the details of those cases but keep in mind the CIA is large and has a tremendous number of machines
[2:57] <_ph00> well yeas
[2:57] <anonymouse> it's not unreasonable to assume some were walking around with known vulnerabilities
[2:57] <_ph00> it must have some know-nothing windoze users
[2:57] <anonymouse> i'm not saying you'd be immune either. that's just the best i can think of
[2:57] <paveq> every machine has holes
[2:58] <_ph00> right
[2:58] <paveq> least local ones
[2:58] <anonymouse> for all we know they could use van eck on your ass
[2:58] <anonymouse> or sneak in and plant micro dot cameras when you are not there
[2:58] <anonymouse> and capture your password and your monitor images
[2:58] <paveq> or brute force ssh
[2:58] <anonymouse> they could be WATCHING YOU RIGHT NOW ARGAFA
[2:59] <paveq> all it goes is cost vs. benefit
[2:59] <anonymouse> heh wouldn't have ssh running that's for sure. except maybe as a honey pot
[2:59] <paveq> I have ssh on every machine
[2:59] <_ph00> I was thinking about some kind of passive defence like assuming that they will be able to hack me, that's why I want too runa remote node, but that should be don anonymously, because if my server account can be linked to my real identity then the whole remote thing is of no use
[2:59] <anonymouse> but paveq is right. no matter what you do it is just changing the difficulty of breaking you
[2:59] <paveq> ssh is virtuously unbreakable :P
[3:00] <_ph00> I mean, assume they can hack anything
[3:00] <paveq> of course I have strong passwords
[3:00] * anonymouse knows that paveq's password is really: 1 2 3 4 5
[3:00] <_ph00> they hack my remote node, but there's no link to myself; they hack my home box, there's no link to the node (but of course, lots of details to take care of)
[3:01] <paveq> Ieweet5paino ahB9ahfeisio aphau6Owiegh yahz9teeRahj eFuwiong5nee otheesh8Laru
[3:01] <paveq> pick there ;)
[3:01] <paveq> <3 pwgen
[3:01] <anonymouse> ieweetpaino.. that sounds funny
[3:01] <paveq> _ph00: who is "they"?
[3:01] <paveq> the government?
[3:02] <_ph00> oh no... not again
[3:02] <anonymouse> i used to use phonetic password generators
[3:02] <anonymouse> before i switched to keepass
[3:02] <_ph00> they = bad guy, no matter who
[3:02] <_ph00> they = the enemy
[3:02] <anonymouse> paveq from our above conversation, they == the government assuming that they make freenet illegal where _ph00 lives
[3:02] <paveq> well if "they" would be real bad guy "they" would just kill you, right?
[3:02] <anonymouse> or torture
[3:03] <anonymouse> hmm i hope you don't live in america
[3:03] <anonymouse> (USA i mean)
[3:03] <anonymouse> because now they can torture you too officially
[3:03] <paveq> yep
[3:03] <_ph00> maybe they don't want to kill me, just keep me from running freenet. or bust me for doing it it's illegal
[3:03] <paveq> maybe
[3:04] <paveq> they they would not have interest to hack your comp propably
[3:04] <paveq> *then
[3:04] <anonymouse> well _ph00 my guess is that after some good ol' fashioned interrogation you'd roll over on your idealism pretty easily
[3:04] <paveq> dammit
[3:04] <_ph00> well, where I live they can't do that officially, but they do anyway. and when you get your ass kicked, it's no big difference if it's official or not
[3:04] <paveq> its 0604 already
[3:04] <_ph00> anony: I would last some 2 seconds
[3:04] <anonymouse> so that's why i'd probably just stop running it if they make it illegal
[3:04] <_ph00> ONE bitch-slap and I tell everything I know, plus anything they want me to say
[3:05] <anonymouse> sure i'm all for freedom of expression, but i'm not going to give up my freedom or my life for it
[3:05] <anonymouse> i think that means we are cowards =)
[3:05] <_ph00> that's why I'm so concerned about not getting caught in the first place
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[3:05] <paveq> but nobody cares/knows about freenet, least not yet
[3:06] <_ph00> I could give up my life (it's not worth much anyway) but no way I'm gonna take torures and stuff.
[3:06] <paveq> good for you
[3:06] <paveq> I don't have life
[3:06] <_ph00> that's why I was fantasizing about the panic-password-triggered exploding PC
[3:06] <anonymouse> paveq is a zombie?
[3:06] <paveq> :E
[3:06] <anonymouse> or maybe just an intelligent AI?
[3:06] <paveq> I'm no-life
[3:06] <_ph00> same here: no life = I can't give it up easily
[3:06] <cactusbin> lol
[3:06] <_ph00> I can
[3:06] <paveq> anonymouse: I would prefer AI more
[3:07] <anonymouse> panic button.. oh crap govt is at the door THERMITE GO!
[3:07] <anonymouse> then you find out it was just some friend playing a joke on you
[3:07] <paveq> why not old plain TNT
[3:07] <anonymouse> and now your floor is on fire
[3:07] <_ph00> I hope I get a chance to get my brain memories uploaded to a thinking AI supercomputer or something like that before I die
[3:07] <_ph00> but that's another story
[3:07] <anonymouse> are you kidding me? thermite rules all
[3:07] <cactusbin> ph00: ditto
[3:07] <anonymouse> haven't you ever played rock, paper, thermite?
[3:07] <paveq> would you die then at all :P
[3:08] <anonymouse> sure you would die
[3:08] <_ph00> yes and no
[3:08] <anonymouse> whenever the power goes out
[3:08] <cactusbin> that would be controverisal
[3:08] <cactusbin> lol
[3:08] <cactusbin> well
[3:08] <paveq> who says only lifeform is organic
[3:08] <anonymouse> i say it
[3:08] <cactusbin> your ideas/thoughts/etcs keep going on so
[3:08] <_ph00> ME, I would di, still "someone" remembering about having been "me" would live on
[3:08] <anonymouse> i hereby challenge any inorganic life form to come to my door and prove me wrong
[3:09] <_ph00> I think that if you can creative think, that you should be considered an entity, no matter if alive or not. it's the old "cogito ergo sum" , I think therefore I am, as opposed to I shit therefore I am
[3:10] <anonymouse> well that might be a definition of intelligence, but certainly not one of life
[3:10] <_ph00> life must be organic, but a sensient entity doen't need to be organic or alive
[3:10] <_ph00> sentient?
[3:10] <anonymouse> that.
[3:10] <_ph00> whatever the spelling is
[3:11] <paveq> I could say something intelligent here
[3:12] <_ph00> it's not meant to be a definition for life. being sentient is good enough for me. Alive as "being capable of understand and interact with other sentient entities", then if I'm technically "alive" or "funcioning" doesn't matter much
[3:12] <paveq> or I could shut up and sleep
[3:12] <paveq> definition of life is least several factors
[3:12] <paveq> not all of them need to exist
[3:13] <paveq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#A_conventional_definition
[3:13] <_ph00> life can be defined by the ability of reproducing
[3:13] <_ph00> so an intelligent sentient robot capable of designing more robots would techically be alive
[3:14] * anonymouse wanders off
[3:14] <_ph00> some say a virus is alive, other say it's not
[3:14] <_ph00> anony is right
[3:14] <paveq> hmm no
[3:14] <_ph00> the discussion about paranoia was way more intresting
[3:15] <_ph00> life is the ability to due?
[3:15] <_ph00> being alive = getting a date at least twice a year?
[3:15] <_ph00> (that's the geek definition of alive)
[3:15] <paveq> All life on Earth is based on the building block element carbon with water as the solvent in which bio-chemical reactions take place.
[3:15] <_ph00> yes
[3:16] <_ph00> ok
[3:16] <paveq> maybe life somewhere else could be based on different elements
[3:16] <_ph00> carbon-based
[3:16] <_ph00> right
[3:16] <_ph00> may be
[3:16] <paveq> that would surely be interesting
[3:16] <_ph00> yes it would
[3:16] <paveq> example silicon
[3:16] <_ph00> btw
[3:16] <_ph00> I saw a documetary on phage therapy
[3:16] <_ph00> really intresting
[3:16] <paveq> "Silicon is usually considered the most likely alternative to carbon, though this remains improbable. Silicon life forms are proposed to have a crystalline morphology, and are theorized to be able to exist in high temperatures, such as planets closer to the sun. "
[3:17] <_ph00> we have silicon life form right here
[3:17] <_ph00> most in the show business
[3:18] <paveq> :D
[3:19] <paveq> a question
[3:19] <paveq> why I'm talking about alternative life forms at 0619
[3:19] <_ph00> yeah. An old Asimov story was based on that idea. there were these two silicon-based lifeforms on this very hot planet arguing about life on earth like planets being impossible because the environment would be too cold to support life
[3:20] * anonymouse wanders back
[3:20] <_ph00> just like our scientists saying "nothing could live on a planet like that, it's like 500C"
[3:20] <anonymouse> ya this is boring. maybe we should talk about something off topic like freenet
[3:20] <_ph00> heh
[3:20] <paveq> is the log freak still there
[3:21] <_ph00> you know where I can get a server without having to tell them my real name etc
[3:21] <_ph00> ?
[3:21] <_ph00> the log freak has been quiet for a while
[3:21] <_ph00> maybe he discovered girls
[3:21] <_ph00> (that was about time)
[3:22] <paveq> you wish
[3:22] <_ph00> heh
[3:22] <_ph00> actually, there were two log freaks, one of them told me that he was it
[3:23] <_ph00> thet he was the log freak, I mean
[3:23] <_ph00> a
[3:24] <_ph00> hehe
[3:24] <_ph00> that's a nice quote:
[3:24] <_ph00> "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
[3:24] <_ph00> bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
[3:24] <_ph00> bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
[3:26] <paveq> old one
[3:27] <anonymouse> it will always win in the end
[3:27] <anonymouse> entropy of a closed system increases
[3:29] <paveq> http://www.intternetti.net/~jiri/motivation/government.jpg
[3:54] <_ph00> who invented the subservient chicken?
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[4:03] <Ebru_Labadon> I can talk though I'm on tor
[4:03] <Ebru_Labadon> :P
[4:04] <Ebru_Labadon> www.subservientchicken.com
[4:05] <Ebru_Labadon> the subservientchicken was probably invented by some ad-writer who whas at the same time down on ideas and high on pot
[4:05] <Ebru_Labadon> for the tor thing: http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor
[4:07] <Ebru_Labadon> quote: we offer another hidden service of 5t7o4shdbhotfuzp.onion The latter hidden service is authenticated with a nick and password combination
[4:08] <_ph00> Great name for a drive-in porn movie teather: Auto-Erotic
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[4:27] <Ebru_Labadon> freenet keeps restarting itself. like yesterday mornig. I noticed one more detail: it does that when Frost is on
[4:37] <_ph00> http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1104341
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[5:18] <anonymouse> you're lucky Ebru_Labadon... I have to restart the node manually =P
[5:18] <Ebru_Labadon> woah
[5:19] <Ebru_Labadon> I toght I had a problem
[5:20] <anonymouse> mine just likes to claim some hardware resources somehow so my mouse gets skip-y
[5:20] <anonymouse> so i skip it over to the services thing and click 'restart'
[5:20] <Ebru_Labadon> anyway, did anyone say anything about my restartting problem yesterday? I said what it was and included the error line. too bad I'm almost never around whern sopme the devs are
[5:20] <anonymouse> should leave your irc logged in or something
[5:20] <anonymouse> I wasn't watching channel yesterday so i can't answer
[5:21] <Ebru_Labadon> I often do
[5:21] <Ebru_Labadon> so no one answered, right
[5:21] <Ebru_Labadon> I'd see the client blinking if someone did
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[5:26] <anonymouse> you know what another problem is with dumb users and the current darknet impl?
[5:27] <anonymouse> users go to frost and what if some troll goes "hey anyone insterested in [illegal thing] join my node!"
[5:27] <anonymouse> they're already getting users to post their refs to frost which is worse,
[5:28] <anonymouse> but even if we train them away from that, the situation I describe above could still happen
[5:28] <anonymouse> I guess it doesn't matter as much then
[5:29] <anonymouse> darknet just requires a whole smarter level of user
[5:30] <anonymouse> in .5 all the IPs were out there sure, but dumb users knew not to go post their personal info..
[5:30] <anonymouse> now with .7 they have to *sometimes* post their personal info
[5:30] <anonymouse> so they just get accustomed to ref trading
[5:30] <anonymouse> and don't *think* about when it's good vs bad
[5:37] <anonymouse> some people say "good that way we get rid of the bad people"
[5:37] <anonymouse> but really it just gets rid of the bad AND dumb people
[5:38] <anonymouse> and i don't think that is a benefit worth the negative attention freenet attains from it
[5:39] <anonymouse> rather i mean (bad and dumb) people. not (bad people) and (dumb people)
[6:03] <_ph00> damn...
[6:03] <_ph00> I love debian but #debian is a high concentration asshole zone
[6:04] <anonymouse> never tried there
[6:04] <_ph00> (leaving alone some non english debian channels, even worse)
[6:04] <_ph00> you better not
[6:04] <_ph00> they're all like rtfm, google it up and maybe you should use windows instead
[6:05] <_ph00> "linux snobs"
[6:06] <anonymouse> oh
[6:07] <_ph00> I'll report a conversation I had with one guy there (on a pastebin). a couple of mintes to take the unintresting stuff away so it becomes more easy to read (I mean the other msgs, not related with the conv. in question)
[6:08] <anonymouse> god at&t are such ass hats
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[6:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o Bombe
[6:24] <_ph00> now check this out, notice that I had already asked that question about gpg keys in apt-get at least 5 or six times before (never more than once every couple of days), and I had question a couple of minutes before, about mounting an .img image: most of us are used to .iso, and I didn't join the channel to ask that, I was already there talking about something else, so what the hell, I could well ask a quick question, right? I got the answer 'http:/
[6:24] <_ph00> /fuckinggoogleit.com'. then I tried to ask about the problem I never got an anwer to. notice the "great guru conceding you a minute" attitude, expecially towards the ending
[6:24] <_ph00> http://pastebin.ca/187545
[6:25] <_ph00> bottomline: if you want help on #debian, you better know how to solve you problem already. and btw, you can't use a nick that includes a _ or someone will find that too hard to type
[6:25] <_ph00> </whining>
[6:26] <anonymouse> i think you should change it to ______ and join there and ask for help
[6:26] <_ph00> nah
[6:27] <_ph00> the problem wa having to press shift
[6:27] <anonymouse> AND minus!
[6:27] <_ph00> I should change it to _-_-_-_-_-_
[6:27] <_ph00> right
[6:27] <_ph00> that
[6:27] <anonymouse> hey you never know, maybe he's disabled and it's hard to use shirt
[6:27] <_ph00> cool
[6:27] <anonymouse> shift
[6:28] <anonymouse> but he's probably just a dick
[6:28] <anonymouse> or maybe his gf left him
[6:28] <anonymouse> you never know when someone is just having a bad time
[6:28] <_ph00> * _-_-_-_-_- :Erroneous Nickname
[6:28] <_ph00> can't do that :(
[6:28] <anonymouse> and in a channel for linux nerds i expect probably a lot of sexually frustrated cranky men
[6:29] <_ph00> I was gonna go there as * _-_-_-_-_- :Erroneous Nickname and ask *him* a question (not to the channel in general)
[6:29] <anonymouse> anyway don't go and try to be aggravating on purpose
[6:29] <anonymouse> then you become just as bad imo
[6:29] <_ph00> well' I'm a sexually frustraed two-dates-a-year geek myself, but that's a bit too much
[6:29] <anonymouse> i think it's much more powerful to retain your composure and civility
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[6:30] <_ph00> poweful powerful...
[6:30] <anonymouse> oh i didn't mean to imply that everyone who isn't getting laid is a cranky mean person
[6:30] <_ph00> flaming can be fun
[6:30] <anonymouse> but you have to expect a higher than average percentage
[6:30] <anonymouse> well then flame on
[6:30] <_ph00> anyways, when he tried to teach me what a polite person should or should not do, I didn't answer
[6:30] <anonymouse> maybe you can make a new enemy
[6:31] <anonymouse> since your old one seems to have given up
[6:31] <_ph00> "with the firends I've got, who needs enemies"
[6:31] <_ph00> friends
[6:32] <_ph00> you mean the log freak? he wasn't really an enemy, that was more like a prank (he told me who he was)
[6:33] <anonymouse> OH NM he's back
[6:34] <anonymouse> just reading freenet board
[6:34] <_ph00> is he?
[6:34] <_ph00> heh
[6:34] <_ph00> cool
[6:34] <anonymouse> new post from him
[6:34] <_ph00> bout what?
[6:34] <anonymouse> <_<
[6:34] <anonymouse> >_>
[6:34] <_ph00> don't make me fire up frost, just report it on a pastebin
[6:34] <anonymouse> ok
[6:34] <_ph00> "paste" it on a pb
[6:35] * anonymouse waves to the LF
[6:35] <anonymouse> this is kind of fun
[6:35] <_ph00> well, the guy is actually around most of the time so he must have picked up when I said that he kinda give up
[6:36] <_ph00> and wanted to prove me wrong
[6:36] * Jflesch (n=jflesch@) has joined #freenet
[6:37] <_ph00> anyway, they are two of them, one is well known guy around here, but I won't tell you, if he wants to publicly admit being the LF, good. the other one is a friend of his as I understand but I don't know who (and don't care)
[6:38] <_ph00> plus probably another "temporary LF" or two who saw the mess and jumped in
[6:39] <anonymouse> grr having paste trouble
[6:39] <anonymouse> it's just says "I didn't even post your ip address. See I'm not so bad."
[6:43] <_ph00> cool
[6:43] <_ph00> I know he's not bad
[6:43] <anonymouse> i was never paying very much attention
[6:43] <_ph00> and I know that ph00 is not anonymous any more
[6:43] <anonymouse> i just remembered there was some drama
[6:43] <_ph00> nah
[6:43] <_ph00> no real drama
[6:44] <anonymouse> anonymouse is even better than anonymous
[6:44] <_ph00> he pasted a conversation once, and I didn't get the point
[6:44] <_ph00> I mean I didn't get why he did that, what was the point he was tying to make, it was a perfeectly normal #freenet converstion to me
[6:45] <_ph00> so I asked something like "and why do you paste snips of *freenet conv here anyway?
[6:45] <_ph00> so he pasted another one or two, and I flamed him a bit, then it went like that for some time
[6:46] <_ph00> then another couple of guys jumped in, and I was starting to find that annoying, so I decided to quit the paranoia, make ph00 non-anonymous and switch frost nick
[6:46] <_ph00> anonymous *is* a nick
[6:47] <_ph00> a nice nick actually
[6:47] <_ph00> -*with the final E
[6:47] <anonymouse> you can't have the nick "anonymous" in irc
[6:47] <anonymouse> that's actually why i first used this
[6:47] * Jflesch_ (n=jflesch@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[6:47] <_ph00> no, but you can have your nick
[6:47] <anonymouse> yep
[6:48] <_ph00> that's was I was saying, that's a cool nick
[6:48] <anonymouse> i gotcha
[6:48] <anonymouse> yeps i like it
[6:48] <anonymouse> it turns out other people thought of it before me.
[6:48] <_ph00> mine is better :P
[6:48] <anonymouse> just not on freenode irc
[6:48] <_ph00> yeah
[6:49] <_ph00> any person from redneck-usa would think about that
[6:49] <anonymouse> now i am confused
[6:49] <_ph00> "mee, I'm ah-noneemaaus"
[6:49] <anonymouse> oh
[6:50] <_ph00> (you can't really type accents)
[6:50] <anonymouse> when i first made it i was thinking "the e is silent. har har"
[6:50] <anonymouse> but then i realized it is like anony-mouse
[6:51] <anonymouse> so now i think of my irc avatar as a mouse
[6:51] <anonymouse> =)
[6:51] <_ph00> of course
[6:51] <_ph00> an anonymous mouse
[6:51] <_ph00> that's the first thing you think of when you see that nick
[6:51] <_ph00> (I wonder what ppl think of when seeing my nick for the first time)
[6:52] <_ph00> sneezing?
[6:52] <_ph00> spitting
[6:52] <anonymouse> foo
[6:52] <_ph00> 'foo'?
[6:52] <_ph00> right
[6:52] <anonymouse> that is what i thought
[6:52] <_ph00> that was the point
[6:52] <anonymouse> so is there some reason why you have the leading underscore as your reg'd nick?
[6:53] <_ph00> I mean, like what would non-linux-geek ppl think of?
[6:54] <anonymouse> i am not qualified to answer that
[6:54] <_ph00> basically so you can talk about me with someone else without making my client blink. you do that on purpose when you need to by using the underscore, but if you only say "ph00 said 'foo'" my client want try to alert me
[6:54] <_ph00> won't
[6:54] <_ph00> damn omphonies
[6:54] <_ph00> omophonies
[6:55] <_ph00> = sounds alike, for non-greek-geeks
[6:55] <anonymouse> hah i don't think your plan works
[6:55] <_ph00> it does
[6:55] <anonymouse> i for one would type <underscore>p<tab> out of habit
[6:55] <anonymouse> so it would put your whole nick
[6:55] <_ph00> you can use ph00 when saying something about me and _ph00 when you want my client to blink
[6:56] <anonymouse> oh i understand now
[6:56] <anonymouse> but i would never have considered that
[6:57] <_ph00> I do because it happened a couple of times that it was blinking, and when I checked it I found that it wasn't a msg to me, but only a msg *about* me
[6:57] <_ph00> (I guess some ppl would consider those intresting as well, but I don't)
[6:58] <anonymouse> i just always use tab completion when talking about any nick
[6:58] <anonymouse> because i'm a lazy ass
[6:59] <_ph00> I don't use nicks so often, only when the channel is very active or when msging someone who's not being active
[7:00] * anonymouse wanders off a while
[7:00] <_ph00> anyway, ph00 is only 4 keystroke, you should consider about using that when talking about me but not need my client to blink
[7:01] * _ph00 gets some coffee
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[7:09] * xphil3 (n=mulder@) Quit ()
[7:29] <floundering> Hi, I've been meaning to try freenet for years, but now there is this darknet thing, and being very exposed to your peers... does the earlier version network still work?
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[8:30] <Ebru_Labadon> it does, but you want to use the newre one: it's not difficult, it only requires half an hour or so to get a couple of peers. to to that, join #freenet-refs and ask around
[8:32] <Ebru_Labadon> the difference between darkenet and opennet is that with darkent you are exposed to the peers you choose to connect to, while on opennet you are exposed to anyone. with opennet you have a big flashing billoard saying "freenet node here, IP address 1.1.1.1. "
[8:32] <Ebru_Labadon> so you are much more exposed
[8:33] * timmy2chk (n=Vincent@) has joined #freenet
[8:33] <Ebru_Labadon> floundering sorry I didn't see your message before.
[8:34] * sbc (n=sbc@) Quit ("Leaving")
[8:39] * hjubal (n=hjubal@) Quit ("..3 2 1 ???check inignition and may God's love be with you???..")
[8:39] <floundering> Ebru_Labadon: OK :) I understand that requests and packets may just pass through your node, so more connections means you are harder to identify, yes?
[8:40] <Ebru_Labadon> not really
[8:40] <Ebru_Labadon> you dont need 60 connections, 10 or 15 are ok
[8:41] <Ebru_Labadon> to stay anonymous, use encrypted mail to swap refs instead of posting here an url to a pastebin where you have your refs, that will make your IP less more visible in the first place
[8:42] <Ebru_Labadon> don't use the same nickname here and on freenet
[8:43] <Ebru_Labadon> freenet has an utility called frost, something like a colleection of forums in a client that looks almost like e-mail
[8:44] <Ebru_Labadon> all freenet traffic is encrypted, so once you have your 10-12 connected peers at any time (say some 15-16 total) and you keep your fros ID well separated from the non-anonymous you, then you should be reasonably safe
[8:45] <Ebru_Labadon> the paranoid way is to only connect to nodes run by people you know and trust, but that's not so easy to do right now because the network is not so big
[8:47] <Ebru_Labadon> besides being encrypted, freenet traffic don't have any headers that identify it as *freenet* traffic, so if you're careful enough, not even your ISP will know for sure that you run a nore (only your peers will). All they can see is nome unidentified UDP traffic
[8:47] <floundering> Ebru_Labadon, Thanks, so what is the possibilty of the feds flooding the fledgling darknet with friendly, willing to swap refs, moles.
[8:47] * Another (n=chatzill@) has joined #freenet
[8:48] <Ebru_Labadon> fairly high
[8:49] <Ebru_Labadon> take into account that basically *anyone* willing to swap refs on #freenet-refs *could* be some agent
[8:49] <Another> toad, 10585, css filter bug on Ian's page, see log here http://pastebin.com/797714
[8:49] <Ebru_Labadon> on the other hand, freenet is no biggie yet
[8:50] <floundering> I am a little paranoid, glad I am not the only one to think that
[8:52] <Ebru_Labadon> so the real probability of agents posing as freenet enthusiast is not so high after all. not yet at teast, becuse freenet is still legal and the *worst* we have is some pervert and a couple of would-be-anarchist nerds
[8:52] <Ebru_Labadon> so we don't have much authority attention yet
[8:52] <Ebru_Labadon> and we hope to be able to run safely before we get undesired attention
[8:52] <Ebru_Labadon> run safely in this contest means havinga network big enough to make possible to connect exclusively to people you know and trust
[8:53] <Ebru_Labadon> ok, paranoia is good
[8:53] <Ebru_Labadon> right now, you don't have a real reason to be *very* paranoid
[8:53] <floundering> Would that encrypted mail be to nym.alias.net or whatever?
[8:54] <Ebru_Labadon> but it is good to learn how to use freenet paranoidly, because if it gets outlawd you want to keep running and not get caught
[8:54] <Ebru_Labadon> to wnatever your mail address is...
[8:54] <Ebru_Labadon> hm...
[8:54] <Ebru_Labadon> let me guess..
[8:55] <Ebru_Labadon> you're a windows user who don't even know what a pgp key is
[8:55] <Ebru_Labadon> no means to offend of course, I like trying to guess, but I often guess wrong
[8:56] <Ebru_Labadon> ok, step one, get tor at http://tor.eff.org, then get a gpg-tor cloak using thsese intructions (moment...)
[8:56] <floundering> debian, I rarely use pgp because in RL I never find anyone who knows what I am talking about
[8:56] <Ebru_Labadon> debian
[8:56] <Ebru_Labadon> cool
[8:56] <Ebru_Labadon> mee too
[8:57] <Ebru_Labadon> me
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[8:57] <Ebru_Labadon> anyway, can you use pgp encrytion?
[8:57] <floundering> yes
[8:58] <Ebru_Labadon> http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor
[8:58] <Ebru_Labadon> here you have your instruction to connect thru tor
[8:58] <Ebru_Labadon> if you simply connect thru tor, you won't be able to talk here, only listening
[8:59] <Ebru_Labadon> sorry
[8:59] <Ebru_Labadon> the chan ops decided so because we had lots of trolling lately
[8:59] <Ebru_Labadon> so, get here thru tor, you can get help in the #tor channel todo that
[9:00] <Ebru_Labadon> you can talk on #tor *through* tor without needing a cloak
[9:00] <Ebru_Labadon> then connect with another nickname and tor
[9:01] <Ebru_Labadon> then talk to ppl, try to know someone, decide who you trust
[9:01] <Ebru_Labadon> and exchange refs using encrypted mail
[9:01] * Another (n=chatzill@) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
[9:01] <Ebru_Labadon> that's the closest thing you can do to *true darknet* if you don't actually know people who run freenet nodes
[9:03] <Ebru_Labadon> or, do it the easy way: simply swap refs at random on #freenet-refs, then learn how to use freenet paranoidly, then when it becomes illegal you will know people who run freenet: get a new IP (switch ISP for example) reinstall the node, switch nick and only connect to people you trust
[9:04] <floundering> That sounds sensible, I am bound to stuff up security while learning at least.
[9:04] <Ebru_Labadon> that's the point
[9:05] <Ebru_Labadon> as long as it's still legal, learn how to use it and in the meantime get freenet contacts that you trust
[9:05] <Ebru_Labadon> when it gets banned, announce that you're not going to do anything illegal, and quit
[9:05] <Ebru_Labadon> inform your trusted ones of what you're doing by encrypted mail
[9:06] <Ebru_Labadon> then restart from scratc, new IP, new ISP, new nick, and LOADS of paranoia
[9:06] <Ebru_Labadon> h
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[9:07] <_ph00> heh
[9:07] <_ph00> cool
[9:08] <floundering> The real desperados would establish an entirely separate network right from the start with only trusted people in it.
[9:08] <floundering> we would never contact them or know they existed
[9:09] <floundering> but one mole...
[9:12] <Ebru_Labadon> so what's the point with that? if they only want to connect to eachother securely they can use ssh
[9:12] <Ebru_Labadon> freenet is supposed to be big *and* anonymous
[9:12] <Ebru_Labadon> and this version is still experimental
[9:13] <Ebru_Labadon> but I heard that this "brand new network" thing shouldn't happen again, 0.8 should be able to use the same storage, so we won't need to rebiuld the network from scratch again
[9:19] <Ebru_Labadon> moles are not such big problem anyway. they are if you only have one or two peers.
[9:20] <Ebru_Labadon> your peers only see that you run a node, they don't see what you actually do with it
[9:20] <Ebru_Labadon> obviously a malicious peer is always a problem
[9:21] <Ebru_Labadon> but even for peers, attacks on freenet are ot so easy to do.
[9:23] <floundering> requests have to go out, and they have to be filled, it has to easier to prove origin with fewer connections
[9:24] <Ebru_Labadon> the mole risk is well known, so I suppose that the developers are trying to make freenet less peer attackable, but I don't reallly know because I don't understand coding. If you do, freenet is open source and the developers hang around here quite often, so you can look at the code yourself, ask questions, suggest modifications etc
[9:25] <Ebru_Labadon> well of course you are more vulnerable to your peers than to anyone else, that's the whole point in running darknet, you actually choose your peers instad of getting random ones
[9:26] <Ebru_Labadon> but traffic is encrypted anyway, they should see some apparently random udp traffic... I hope. I can't really answer real technical questions, you should ask some devs
[9:30] <Ebru_Labadon> and yes, if you have too few connections, sounds logic that identificating stuff should be less difficult. But you don't want to have too many connections because they would get in the way of each other if I understand it right. much depends on your connection and on how much bandwidth you give to freenet, but usually ~10 connected peers at any time should be enough to make attacks more difficult and not enough to get in the way of ea
[9:30] <Ebru_Labadon> ch other
[9:32] <floundering> Is there a blacklist of bad nodes, fbi ip addies etc.
[9:33] <floundering> No point in making it to easy for them
[9:34] <Ebru_Labadon> I have 12 peers in total, and they'r all running 24/7 so basically they are all connected all the time, but if you don't plan to run 24/7 you may want more connections: 24/7 peers want to connect to other 24/7 peers so if you're not 24/7 you'll have to connect to other non-24/7's which could or could not be up each time you run, so for a non-24/7 node the best thing would be many some 25 nodes, possibly located all around the world
[9:34] <Ebru_Labadon> yes there are shitlists
[9:34] <Ebru_Labadon> but ther are also a couple of major flaws with the concept of shitlist
[9:34] <Ebru_Labadon> fisrt of all, all you can get is a list of *known* bad IP's
[9:35] <Ebru_Labadon> and those guys have money, they can get as many IP's as they want. The *real* bad IP's don't even get in those list probably
[9:36] <Ebru_Labadon> I even suspect that the whole shitlist thing is a way to instill a false sense of security
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[9:39] <Ebru_Labadon> another point is that shitlists are so huge that you need a program to manage them, and the program could be doing the exact opposite of what you think, like disconnecting from *known* "bad" IP's and at the same time sending info to some *real* bad IP that will never get in any shitlist
[9:39] <Ebru_Labadon> so once again the only real way to stay clear of agents etc is to only connect to people you actually know
[9:39] <floundering> Given that entry into encrypted networks is public, anyone with a strong sense of security would have to have a screw loose.
[9:40] <Ebru_Labadon> but I know what you mean, people you know on the internet could be anyone
[9:40] <Ebru_Labadon> on the other hand, people you have known in person for may years could also be agents...
[9:43] <floundering> Free speach is not something I would be comfortable exercising on people I know in RL. as things get worse who knows what might come back to bite you.
[9:44] <Ebru_Labadon> right
[9:44] <Ebru_Labadon> eerrr....
[9:44] <Ebru_Labadon> basically right, for most ppl you interact with in real life
[9:45] <Ebru_Labadon> but you still have a couple of friends you can freely speak with
[9:45] <floundering> Right, I must get off and get this set up :) thanks
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[9:46] <_ph00> we're not gonna see this guy any more
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[9:48] <Ebru_Labadon> but we may get a new tor-connecting user
[9:55] <_ph00> nah
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[10:21] <ljn1981> What impact will it have on the node if the temp and persistent temp dirs are missing next time I start my node?
[10:24] <ljn1981> How about the cache dir?
[10:35] <ljn1981> brb
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[11:31] <ljn1981> Nevermind about my questions about the impact of missing dirs, I just for a 40GB drive so plety room for the backup
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[11:56] <vextr> how many 'wrapper' processes should I see running?
[11:57] <vextr> gawd this Freenet java wrapper stuff is ugly.
[11:58] <vextr> I guess I'm just bitter because the current version is so damn unstable now.
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[12:20] <ljn1981> vextr: One I think.
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[12:22] <vextr> mm.. ok.. I have 3... time to kill em all and restart.
[12:24] <vextr> seems 3 must be right. Stopped freenet and they all went away.. startet it and I have 3 wrapper processes again.
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[12:33] <ljn1981> Hmm weird
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[13:00] * Griffon26 hopes the non-native FEC bug is solved soon
[13:13] <ljn1981> agsarite: Hehe SSK@7YlW2-83WXNxuYZMqfquZEou7-LDJXUkKWelLiDBKxw,7neLROLH6WOWXKlidwCqB94W1SANjaBJjRxQ0Dsj0SY,AQABAAE/sorry/
[13:22] <Bombe> How sweet. :)
[13:25] <ljn1981> Wonder what he wasted time with.
[13:30] <ljn1981> bbl
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[13:57] <CIA-5> jflesch * r10586 /trunk/apps/Thaw/src/thaw/ (17 files in 4 dirs): Create separate sockets to transfer files (if global == true)
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[14:23] <CIA-5> mrogers * r10587 /trunk/apps/load-balancing-sims/phase6/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Simple Kleinberg networks
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[18:10] <nextgens> Griffon26> I've got a non-permanent fix for it
[18:10] <Griffon26> nextgens: huh?
[18:10] <nextgens> the native FEC not working problem
[18:12] <Griffon26> ok, what should I do?
[18:14] <nextgens> what processor/OS are you on ?
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[18:15] <nextgens> Griffon26> ^^ ?
[18:15] <nextgens> what processor/OS are you running freenet on ?
[18:29] <Griffon26> oops, got distracted. Back now =]
[18:29] <Griffon26> I'm on Linux. P4
[18:29] <Griffon26> ehh, P3 actually
[18:30] <nextgens> then you can try using an older freenet-ext
[18:31] <Griffon26> how old and from where?
[18:32] * nextgens wonders if we keep old ext.jar
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[18:42] <Griffon26> nextgens: any tips on extracting the version from freenet-ext.jar?
[18:43] <Griffon26> except for using it and checking fproxy
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[18:48] <nextgens> using "jar" ? :)
[18:50] <Griffon26> could you be a bit more specific? I'm no java guy.
[18:52] <nextgens> you would need a JDK
[18:52] <nextgens> and unfortunatly you probably have only a JRE
[18:52] <Griffon26> got that
[18:52] <nextgens> maybe you can try "unzip" though
[18:53] <Griffon26> yeah, did that already. I just don't know where to look for the version.
[18:54] <nextgens> in freenet-ext/Version.class iirc
[18:54] <nextgens> anyway the file to alter is lib/native.properties
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[18:57] <Griffon26> nextgens: what do I need to change?
[18:58] <nextgens> I've pasted a working one friday on bulix iirc
[18:58] <nextgens> I suggest you dig into irc logs
[18:58] <Griffon26> k
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[19:06] <aladdin> hi men
[19:07] <aladdin> someone add me? http://dark-code.bulix.org/zij2pg-18866?raw
[19:07] <nextgens> please try on #freenet-refs insteed
[19:07] <aladdin> sorry
[19:07] <aladdin> and thank you
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[19:10] <Griffon26> ok, here goes nothing
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[19:15] <Griffon26> nextgens: lots of those errors about not being able to load non-native FEC, but so far no abnormal CPU usage. Is that what you expected?
[19:16] <nextgens> you could have high CPU usage related to that only when you're encoding blocks
[19:16] <nextgens> or decoding
[19:16] <Griffon26> well, frost pretty much made it jump to 100% within a few seconds after starting it. That was my test case.
[19:17] <nextgens> unless you insert really big files, you shouldn't notice too much differences
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[19:17] <nextgens> frost doesn't do any FEC
[19:17] <nextgens> at least it shouldn't
[19:17] <Griffon26> nevertheless, I could run a node for days at <10% CPU, but as soon as I started frost, it'd go up to 100 and stay there
[19:18] <Griffon26> after shutting down frost it would take a while to settle down, but it would return to that <10%
[19:18] <nextgens> frost is forking threads/creating a lot of FCP connections
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[19:19] <nextgens> if you do have lots of boards to wich you're suscribed to, it might be a problem
[19:19] <nextgens> especially if you refresh all of them at once
[19:19] * nextgens sets mode +v ljn1981
[19:22] <Griffon26> nextgens: cpu goes to 100% before the first board is even refreshed
[19:22] <nextgens> is CIA-5 on strike ?
[19:22] <CIA-5> nextgens * r10588 /trunk/freenet/src/freenet/clients/http/QueueToadlet.java: fix a typo on the /queue/ page
[19:23] <Griffon26> I thought it had to do with the propagation of messages from people set to GOOD
[19:23] <nextgens> just laggy I guess
[19:23] <nextgens> depending on the frost version you use, it can be that too
[19:23] <nextgens> well, messages aren't "propagated"
[19:24] <nextgens> as far as I know, the difference between good and bad messages is just cosmetic
[19:26] <Griffon26> frost says "help user (set to GOOD)" and the faq says "Somebody who you've marked GOOD is somebody you trust. You can send them private messages and help them spread their shared lists."
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[19:30] <nextgens> Griffon26> I would be interrested in knowing how it does :)
[19:31] <nextgens> and I doubt it actually does it anyway
[19:31] <Griffon26> then I'd like to know what this 'helping' is
[19:31] <nextgens> maybe it keeps a list of known "good" messages
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[19:31] <nextgens> and tries to fetch them altogether at startup
[19:34] <nextgens> sleon> could you give us any lead ?
[19:41] <sleon> nextgens: whats up ?
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[19:41] <sleon> nextgens: lead about what ?
[19:41] <sleon> nextgens: what is the question exactly?
[19:41] <Griffon26> nextgens: thanks for the tip btw. I can finally use frost again without my pInstantReject going to 100%
[19:42] <ljn1981> What tip?
[19:42] <Griffon26> ljn1981: removing all native FEC impls except for the one for my arch
[19:43] <Griffon26> in freenet-ext:lib/native.properties
[19:43] <ljn1981> Aha
[19:43] <ljn1981> Ooh the good thing about switching computers soon to avoid data loss when this one die, I'll get native FEC :D
[19:43] <ljn1981> Nothing is so bad it's not good for something.
[19:44] * nextgens sets mode +v kakaks
[19:45] <nextgens> sleon> how does frost "help user (set to GOOD)" and the faq says "Somebody who you've marked
[19:45] <nextgens> GOOD is somebody you trust. You can send them private messages and help them spread their shared lists."
[19:45] <nextgens> ?
[19:45] <nextgens> Griffon26> the long-term solution is to wait for me to release a new fixed freenet-ext
[19:45] <nextgens> :)
[19:49] <ljn1981> nextgens: Any significant progress on STS?
[19:49] <ljn1981> In the past week or so
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[19:50] <nextgens> ljn1981> I'm too lazy/busy for making any progress :$
[19:50] <nextgens> doing it shouldn't take long anymore
[19:50] <ljn1981> ok thought so, the busy part anyway
[19:50] <nextgens> but it needs to be done ^^-^^
[19:51] <ljn1981> Good
[19:51] <nextgens> I have been away the whole WE
[19:51] <nextgens> ...
[19:51] <ljn1981> Hehe yeah that's the hard part
[19:51] <nextgens> and I'm likely to be busy for the comming weeks as well
[19:51] <nextgens> :<
[19:52] <ljn1981> Bummer
[20:01] <sleon> nextgens: when you have signed message
[20:01] <sleon> nextgens: you can decide if you mark the signature as good or bad
[20:01] <sleon> nextgens: or observ
[20:01] <sleon> there are 3 buttons for this on the toolbar
[20:02] <sleon> all signatures you trust can be signed that way as good
[20:02] <sleon> nextgens: do you like it ?
[20:03] <nextgens> ok, but what does it change network wise ?
[20:03] <nextgens> nothing ?
[20:04] <sleon> nextgens: nothing
[20:04] <sleon> nextgens: it is only client wise
[20:05] <sleon> nextgens: then you can set : hide all messages with bad signatures
[20:05] <nextgens> ok
[20:05] <nextgens> :)
[20:05] <nextgens> that's what I thought :)
[20:05] <nextgens> Griffon26> ^^-^^
[20:05] <sleon> nextgens: :))))
[20:06] <sleon> nextgens: you fought that when you mark message as bad then all users will get it ?
[20:08] <nextgens> nope
[20:08] <nextgens> Griffon26 was thinking frost was doing some healing when a message is marked good
[20:09] <Griffon26> sleon: then why is the text of the option "help user (sets to GOOD)". That's very confusing if you ask me
[20:09] <nextgens> bbiab
[20:09] <Griffon26> if it's only for the frost user setting that thing, then how does it help the other user?
[20:16] <ljn1981> locChangePerSwap: -2.130938E-2
[20:16] <ljn1981> What do you guys have?
[20:17] <sleon> Griffon26: do not know, it is not good i think
[20:17] <ljn1981> locChangeSession: -6.392814E-2
[20:24] <nextgens> sleon> it's a good thing
[20:24] <nextgens> it means that his node's location has hardly changed
[20:24] <nextgens> E-2 isn't that much
[20:26] <nextgens> hmm
[20:26] <nextgens> is E^-2 10^-2 or 10^-(3^2) ?
[20:28] <nextgens> it's the first one
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[20:33] <_ph00> is that ironic? the man with hid finger on the big red button can't pronounce the word "nuclear"
[20:33] <_ph00> his*
[20:33] <Griffon26> nextgens: 10^-(3^2)? what are you smoking? =]
[20:33] <_ph00> gauloises, probably
[20:34] <Griffon26> nextgens: spiked with ... ?
[20:37] <_ph00> smal problem: one of my peers sent me a 2-word N2N message maybe on week ago. Now, I'g getting that same message each time our nodes reconnect to each other
[20:37] <ljn1981> _ph00: What'd you expect?
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[20:38] <_ph00> I d'espect that once I delete a message it won't show up again
[20:38] <_ph00> I delete it, and upon next connection I get it again
[20:38] <_ph00> why?
[20:38] <_ph00> and how do I stop that?
[20:39] <ljn1981> I think that's a known problem
[20:40] <Zothar> it's a known problem that is of the annoying to track down type because the person that's going to report the problem won't be the person with the mis-behaving node
[20:41] <_ph00> so the solution is what I've been doing, tell people not to use n2n messages until it gets better. Is that any way to skip getting that message at each reconnect with that node, besides deleting the peer?
[20:41] <ljn1981> nextgens: Yeah very stable. swapsPerMinute: 4.377645E-3 nodeUptime: 11h25m
[20:41] <_ph00> so the mis-behaving node is the sender, not the reciver?
[20:41] <_ph00> k
[20:42] <Zothar> or get details logs from mis-behaving nodes posted on the bug in Mantis
[20:42] <_ph00> I'll tell the guy who sent the message to report the problem
[20:42] <Zothar> the sender is the mis-behaving node, yes
[20:42] <Zothar> ljn1981: assuming it swaps at all... :)
[20:43] <ljn1981> Zothar: 3 swaps
[20:43] <ljn1981> 757 noSwaps
[20:43] <Zothar> right
[20:44] * FooDerGrosse (n=kevin@) Quit ("W??hlt die PiratenPartei Deutschland!!!")
[20:44] <Zothar> _ph00: if you/they can figure out what sequence of events causes the N2NTM resending, that'd be good to report as well
[20:45] <_ph00> looks like I get the msg each time my node connetc to the n2n sender node, both when I restart and when he does
[20:46] <_ph00> but OK, I'll try to look better
[20:46] <ljn1981> # networkSizeEstimateSession: 405 nodes
[20:46] <ljn1981> # avrConnPeersPerNode: 7.655802 peers
[20:46] <ljn1981> # nodeUptime: 11h30m
[20:46] <ljn1981> What do you guys have? Anything very different?
[20:47] <Zothar> _ph00: come to think of it, I just thought of a scenario that would have the receiver causing the problem; find out if there's a difference between the sender restarting and the receiver restarting?
[20:47] <Zothar> _ph00: ah, nevermind on that; must be sender then
[20:47] <Zothar> _ph00: OTOH, reconnecting because of a ->DISABLE->ENABLE cycle doesn't reproduce it it seems
[20:47] <_ph00> well I did restart and get the message a couple of minutes ago
[20:49] <_ph00> and, I know I got it at least once when he restarted: yesterday I my node was up basically all day. but it could still be my restarting, my node self restarted a couple of times.
[20:50] <Zothar> _ph00: so you're only receiving it once per reconnect/restart then; I wonder if reports of massive resends before was actually fixed by my commit and this is a separate issue...
[20:50] <_ph00> another problem with that peer, the one that seems to multi-send that message, is that sometimes it stay disconnected tho the guy says that it's up and running
[20:50] <Zothar> _ph00: that could be ARK/BurstOnly/etc delays
[20:50] <Zothar> ...depending on how long it's disconnected, but that shouldn't be related to the N2NTM problem in any case
[20:51] <_ph00> that could be. another guy sent a n2n before, and I got that like 300 times in a row without even restarting, so I guess this is another problem
[20:51] <_ph00> no, it's probably not related. but it's funny how that node has both problems
[20:51] <_ph00> I mean the connection between me and him
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[20:52] <_ph00> the 300 times sent message is probably a different problem (just guessing) and it was not the same peer.
[20:53] <_ph00> the problem could be my node after all: those were the only n2n I ever got, one 300 times, and the other keepg getting there at each reconnection
[20:53] <_ph00> keeps*
[20:53] <_ph00> maybe I should ask someone else to send an n2n and see what happens
[20:54] <Zothar> _ph00: anything you can think of to track down the issue can help; if you get any new information, please add it to the bug on Mantis
[20:57] <_ph00> I never used mantis: any faq link? (ok I guess I can google that). The problem is that I can try to guess stuff but I don't know where to look for confirmations. I only know that I can look at wrapper.log and at the logs in the 'logs' dir, but I don't know how to interpret those lines
[20:58] <_ph00> but I can post as much detailed info as I can in my reports, I know that helps
[21:01] <ljn1981> _ph00: How many times have you recieved "Test :P" from me?
[21:01] <ljn1981> I sent it, then disabled and enabled your node.
[21:03] <_ph00> checking
[21:04] <_ph00> aint got nothing
[21:04] <_ph00> I mean "I didn't get any message"
[21:04] <ljn1981> Hmm
[21:04] <ljn1981> Strange
[21:04] <_ph00> should I try restarting my node?
[21:05] <_ph00> after all I was complaining about recieving the msg each time I started
[21:05] <_ph00> but I'm gonna wait a bit before doing that: freenet is slow, remember?
[21:07] <Zothar> _ph00: N2NTMs are only between directly connected peers, so "speed" should have little to do with it unless there's a connectivity problem between your nodes
[21:07] <ljn1981> Worth a try
[21:07] <_ph00> right. direct messages should be way faster than 2regular" freenet stuff
[21:08] <_ph00> but I'm gonna wait some 15 minutes anyway
[21:08] <_ph00> then restart
[21:12] <SinnerG> hmm
[21:12] <SinnerG> would anyone be interested into taking iFreed (the node) over?
[21:13] <SinnerG> maybe the site also
[21:14] <ljn1981> Is it just me or do all you guys also mostly see location changes in the negative direction? I'm curious why this is.
[21:14] <_ph00> ljn, what do you mean?
[21:14] <ljn1981> SinnerG: Not me but I'm curious why you don't want to do it anymore.
[21:14] <SinnerG> I'm working on a webhosting backend
[21:14] <_ph00> sinner, why? no time? bored? to expensive? other? (what?)
[21:14] <ljn1981> ocChangeSession: -6.392814E-2
[21:15] <SinnerG> no time, other priorities
[21:15] <_ph00> k
[21:15] <ljn1981> On the config page. It almost always change to a lower number than what it were
[21:15] <SinnerG> mayby toad wants it :p
[21:16] <ljn1981> SinnerG: I doubt it.
[21:16] <SinnerG> pff
[21:16] <SinnerG> I would feel bad by just taking it down
[21:16] <SinnerG> but if I dont find anyone, I'll have to :/
[21:19] <Zothar> ljn1981: of the two nodes that have swapped since start, one is in the positive direction, the other in the negative direction
[21:19] <ljn1981> I don't have the bandwidth to do it and I have other issues with it
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[22:05] <_ph00> ljn no n2n msg yet
[22:05] <_ph00> I'm gonna restart the node
[22:05] <ljn1981> Hmm
[22:05] <ljn1981> ok
[22:06] <ljn1981> I'm going to bed soon
[22:07] <anonymouse> SinnerG: at a minimum, archive everything up and insert it somewhere likely to stay persistent
[22:07] <anonymouse> (whatever that might mean)
[22:07] <anonymouse> so maybe someone can dig it up in the future
[22:07] <anonymouse> just imo
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[22:10] <ljn1981> _ph00: Still nothing?
[22:10] <_ph00> ljn: restarted, connected and no msg
[22:11] <_ph00> what does r10577:10581M mean?
[22:11] <ljn1981> Hmm going to send one more and do nothing else then
[22:11] <ljn1981> Nini guys
[22:11] <_ph00> don't send another one
[22:11] <_ph00> I'll ask someone else
[22:13] <_ph00> then if tomrrow I get a message from someone else but still not yours, you could try again... but maybe you should try now after all, maybe you though you sent it but didn't actually do that (what do you think? is that possible?)
[22:13] <ljn1981> Ah
[22:13] <ljn1981> just sent it :P
[22:13] <_ph00> k
[22:13] <_ph00> (hope I get it *once*)
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[22:13] <_ph00> getting multiple repeating messages at each restart would be really annoying
[22:14] <ljn1981> Itt should say "One more test" on the first line and then time and date UTC in the second line
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[22:14] <_ph00> k
[22:14] <ljn1981> Anyway bedtime.
[22:14] <_ph00> so "test" = 1st and "one more test" = 2nd
[22:14] <_ph00> natti natti
[22:14] <ljn1981> My bed is sending me n2nms wanting me to come over :P
[22:15] <ljn1981> YEah
[22:15] <ljn1981> BBL
[22:17] <_ph00> no msg so far. I'll report recieving
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[22:18] * anonymouse (n=a@) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[22:19] <anonymouse_away> god FINALLY
[22:19] * anonymouse_away is now known as anonymouse
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[22:47] <SinnerG> okay
[22:47] <SinnerG> for the ones interested
[22:48] <SinnerG> ifreed.net is going down this night
[22:48] * hdp (n=hdp@) Quit ("Leaving")
[22:48] <SinnerG> I 'might' turn the node back up.. I'll keep my data files + cache (15GB) for sure :)
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[22:53] <SinnerG> there
[22:53] <SinnerG> msg send stating I'm going down
[22:56] <_ph00> can't you set it up some way that it keeps running with minimal human imput, and then ask someone to help you on
