Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:02] * mazzanet (n=mazzanet@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[0:09] <MakeSpace> how are chk and ssk hashes mapped to key space?
[0:26] * agsarite (n=agsarite@) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[0:27] <toad_> MakeSpace: they're just numbers
[0:27] <toad_> MakeSpace: numbers can be mapped to other numbers
[0:27] <toad_> a 32-byte hash is a 256-bit integer
[0:28] <toad_> just take the first 54 bits and use them for the mantissa, and fix the exponent so it's in the range 0.0 to 1.0
[0:28] <MakeSpace> right, so drop a (binary) decimal point at the front and you have the keyspace 'address'?
[0:28] <toad_> more or less
[0:28] <MakeSpace> ok, get it. Thanks
[0:28] <toad_> actually we divide it by a big number rather than putting them together as i suggest because it's easier
[0:29] <MakeSpace> Hmmm.... and the big number is just 2^256?
[0:29] <MakeSpace> (point at the code if you aren't sure)
[0:31] <MineHaunter> I need some rest
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[1:17] <MrXian> hello everyone
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[6:35] <BADboD> the web installer has been downloading thaw for over 30 mins now,, i am showing constant network activity,, whats going on?
[6:36] <BADboD> might restart the installer nd deselect thaw
[6:37] * sanity (n=ian@) Quit ()
[6:38] <BADboD> could understand igf it was d/loadin it from freenet ;)
[6:41] <BADboD> great,, the uninstaller dont work
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[9:34] <BaDboD> hmm this irc client seems better,, now where was i
[9:38] * BaDboD (n=BaDboD@) Quit (" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-")
[9:44] <XTorchedX> hahaha
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[11:03] <basxx> can anyone tell me how to surf on freenet
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[11:10] <XTorchedX> basxx, i don't know
[11:12] <basxx> thanks
[11:13] <XTorchedX> no worry
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[11:59] <_ph00> hi freenet-dudes
[11:59] <_ph00> howzi goin
[11:59] <XTorchedX> hi freenet chick
[11:59] <XTorchedX> fine thanks, you?
[11:59] <_ph00> chick?
[12:00] <_ph00> "moi"
[12:00] <XTorchedX> toi
[12:00] <_ph00> i ain no chick
[12:01] <XTorchedX> ohh ok
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[12:22] <_ion> If two of the clients i'm connected to have the same file in their cache and i start downloading it, does my client download it from both of them concurrently?
[12:26] <_ph00> HA
[12:26] <_ph00> HAHA
[12:26] <_ph00> hahahahahaha
[12:26] <_ph00> can ppl really be that stupid?
[12:26] <_ph00> (I'm talking about the cp circle board)
[12:27] <_ph00> (someone could be posing other ppl resf...
[12:27] * _ph00 drops the content discussion
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[13:02] <_ph00> ljn how could you get a tor cloak? I asked for one the day after you got that, and they told me that no tor cloaks were being issued any more. I got a non-tor cloac (trackable by staffer, not a real problem)
[13:03] <_ion> Output Rate: 1.36 KiBps, Input Rate: 1.34 KiBps ??? is there a reason for them to be so slow? (I.e. a few KiB/s instead of tens of KiB/s)
[13:03] * timmy2chk (n=Vincent@) has joined #freenet
[13:03] <ljn1981> _ph00: I asked the guy who suggested blocking tor users if they didn't have a cloak.
[13:04] <_ph00> who suggested that?
[13:05] <_ph00> I did /stats p and I got 3 staffers on line, asked one, and got a non-tor cloak. good anough for me, but a tor cloak is cooler
[13:05] <_ph00> enough*
[13:06] * Zothar_Work (n=chatzill@) has joined #freenet
[13:06] <_ion> I'm inserting a 40MiB file for testing purposes, and i'm wondering why the transfer rate is so slow.
[13:06] <_ph00> what about the cp circle board? do you really think that ppl are so stupid? they are actually trying to "join" by sending their refs in signed posts... or are they posting other ppl's refs? (maybe a bit of both)
[13:06] <_ph00> _ion: bad connections?
[13:07] <_ion> ph00: At least one of them should be very good.
[13:07] <ljn1981> I can't remember, check the logs
[13:07] <ljn1981> Hehe
[13:07] <_ph00> what kind of up/doen speed you have got?
[13:07] <_ion> ph00: Normally the max upload speed is around 90 KiB/s and the max download speed is around 750 KiB/s.
[13:07] <toad_> hi folk
[13:07] <_ion> Hi
[13:07] <_ph00> hi toad
[13:08] <toad_> i thought unaffiliated/ was masked by gateway/tor/ ?
[13:08] <_ph00> maybe the bad up speed limits the freenet speed?
[13:08] <toad_> maybe because you're unaffiliated/ph00/x instead of unaffiliated/ph00
[13:08] <_ion> I set the limit to 80KiB/s.
[13:08] <toad_> some days i'm glad god is just ...
[13:08] <_ph00> unaffiliated cloak is trackable by staffers only, but that's good enough for me
[13:08] * Savini is now known as Hakim_Bey
[13:08] <toad_> some days more so than other days
[13:09] <toad_> _ph00: so you're not logged in via tor?
[13:09] <_ph00> nope
[13:09] <ljn1981> _ion: Good question. Input Rate: 9.15 KiBps Output Rate: 7.98 KiBps Total Input: 9.31 MiB (6.19 KiBps) Total Output: 8.10 MiB (5.38 KiBps)
[13:09] <toad_> ahhh
[13:09] <toad_> so you're traceable until you identify
[13:09] <toad_> you're also traceable to the BadGuys
[13:09] <MrNaz> im trying to install freenet
[13:09] <_ph00> and my cloak is /ph00/x<nr> instead of /_ph00 beacuse of the _ in the nick (they told me so)
[13:09] <MrNaz> but the install fails at the step when fetching and installing freenet-latest-stable
[13:10] <MrNaz> is there a problem with the dist server or am i doing something wrong?
[13:10] <ljn1981> My node is limited to 36/9KiBps
[13:10] <toad_> MrNaz: possible ...
[13:10] <toad_> i'll have a look...
[13:10] <_ph00> WHAT?!?
[13:10] <MrNaz> i'm following the instructions to the letter
[13:10] * _ph00 contacts toad in pvt...
[13:10] <MrNaz> java -jar new_installer.jar and just clicking next next next
[13:10] <toad_> "we don't talk to evil" ... yeah, i don't talk to dick cheney either
[13:10] <MrNaz> i have sun jre 1.5 release 6
[13:11] <ljn1981> _ph00> what about the cp circle board? do you really think that ppl are so stupid? they are actually trying to "join" by sending their refs in signed posts... or are they posting other ppl's refs? (maybe a bit of both) <------ propably a bit of both, some are obviously people trying to make it not look like a scam
[13:12] <toad_> MrNaz: what happens if you cancel it and try again? maybe you hit a bad mirror? oh, and please gimme a screenshot first
[13:12] <toad_> ljn1981: there's a cp-refs board? LOL
[13:12] <toad_> tell the FBI!
[13:12] <MrNaz> toad_: ok i'll try and get a screenshot... but im using ubuntu, and i'm utterly new to linux on the desktop having moved from win32 about 2 days ago
[13:12] <toad_> of course, they're probably other ppl's refs...
[13:12] <MrNaz> toad_: i've tried it twice...
[13:13] <toad_> MrNaz: hmmm
[13:13] <_ph00> ljn1981: makes sense
[13:13] <MrNaz> toad_: but ill get you a screenshot this time (i uninstall and reinstalled it to try again earlier... i'll do so again)
[13:13] <toad_> i'll try running it myself 1sec
[13:13] <toad_> i just want to jot a brief thought down on my flog
[13:13] <_ph00> still, you must be really stupid to buy that one
[13:13] <ljn1981> toad_: Some people obviously trying to trick stupid people.
[13:14] <MrNaz> toad_: any idea how best to get a screenshot and save it in ubuntu? printscrn > gimp?
[13:14] <_ion> You don't need gimp. Just printscreen and save the file from the dialog.
[13:15] <MrNaz> oh cool
[13:15] <toad_> there's a KDE prog for screenshots
[13:15] <MrNaz> i like that
[13:15] <toad_> under Graphics on the menu
[13:15] <_ion> alt-printscreen to only grab the active window.
[13:15] <_ph00> mrnaz in ubuntu and debian there is a 'take screeneshot' button in the menu
[13:15] <MrNaz> i have gimp installed... but i'll just printscrn it and if a dialog comes up then woot
[13:15] <ljn1981> <toad_> some days i'm glad god is just ... <---- what's going on?
[13:15] <MrNaz> _ph00: there is?
[13:15] * MrNaz looks...
[13:15] <_ph00> yup
[13:16] <_ph00> you can add that shortcut to your panel, so you can tacke screenshots with one single click
[13:16] <MrNaz> i dont see it... perhaps im blind?
[13:16] <_ph00> another way is using wine on any win 'auto-screenshot' app
[13:17] <_ph00> I used to run ubuntu for some months, breezy first and then dapper, and I clearly remember the take screenehot utiolity
[13:17] <_ph00> but I don't remember exactly in which menu it was
[13:17] <_ph00> maybe you want to ask on #ubuntu
[13:18] <MrNaz> toad_: ive also had an error with a file called jstun coming up
[13:18] <_ion> You already have a "shortcut" for the app, it's in your keyboard. :-)
[13:18] <MrNaz> so i havent been installing the STUN plugin
[13:18] <MrNaz> which is fine, i have a no-ip dyndns account which i use with my ipcop box
[13:18] <_ph00> btw, alt-printscreen should do the trick
[13:18] <_ph00> (never actually tried that)
[13:18] <MrNaz> guys im sure ill figure out how to take a screenshot jeez heh
[13:19] <MrNaz> i regret asking for a pointer now haha
[13:19] <_ion> mrnaz: The printscreen key in your keyboard.
[13:19] <MrNaz> now everyone thinks im a moron
[13:19] <MrNaz> oh wait...
[13:19] <_ph00> yes...
[13:19] <_ph00> should be in the 'accessories' menu
[13:19] <_ph00> I think it's a gnome feat
[13:19] <toad_> KDE has one but it may not be installed
[13:20] <_ph00> ubuntu doesn't install kde by default. debain does, which is super-cool, you run gnome but you're ale to use any kde apps
[13:20] <toad_> okay where were we...
[13:21] <_ph00> anyways, on my debian system, I see a take screenshot button in the gnome menu, under 'accessories'
[13:21] <toad_> MrNaz: well, what page is the installer on?
[13:21] <toad_> MrNaz: does it have a big text box? can you paste the contents of the textbox into a pastebin?
[13:21] <toad_> i.e. code.bulix.org ?
[13:25] <ljn1981> Anyone else have trouble accessing wiki.freenetproject.org through tor?
[13:25] <toad_> MrNaz: here?
[13:26] <MrNaz> yeap still trying to get this screenshot uploaded heh
[13:26] <MrNaz> i just had to install a ftp client
[13:26] <MrNaz> coz i didnt have one
[13:26] <MrNaz> i have the shot... gimme a sec sorry about making you wait :(
[13:27] <_ion> mrnaz: You did have a FTP client. Just start nautilus (the "file explorer", for example open your home directory), press ctrl-L and type ftp://servername
[13:27] <MrNaz> _ion: does that support SFTP ?
[13:27] <_ion> mrnaz: Yes, that too.
[13:27] <ljn1981> Weird, now it's working again.
[13:30] <MrNaz> toad_ / _ion : http://www.mrnaz.com/static/freenet_error.png
[13:31] <MrNaz> sorry about the delay... i feel like a blind man in the dark at the moment heh
[13:31] <MrNaz> now a word on what happens with i just click continue anyway:
[13:31] <toad_> it failed to download freenet-stable-latest.jar
[13:31] <toad_> hrrm
[13:31] <toad_> that means it won't work
[13:31] <MrNaz> well... it doesnt heh
[13:32] <MrNaz> but if you look in the background, you'll see what happens
[13:32] <MrNaz> it starts
[13:32] <MrNaz> status reports its running for about 20 seconds
[13:32] <MrNaz> and then the exact same command says its not
[13:34] <toad_> okay...
[13:35] <toad_> i'm going to try it here...
[13:35] <MrNaz> is that to be expected if it failed to download the main jar file?
[13:36] <MrNaz> also note that i disable STUN installation, as i get an error on one of the files for that too... but thats all good coz i have a no-ip.com static domain (home.mrnaz.com)
[13:37] <toad_> it won't work if it failed to download the main jar file
[13:37] * toad_ trying the installer...
[13:38] <toad_> MrNaz: you turned off the plugins?
[13:39] <MrNaz> only STUN
[13:39] <MrNaz> everything else is there
[13:39] <toad_> MrNaz: worksforme ... hmmmm
[13:39] <MrNaz> however i get that error whether or not STUN is enabled
[13:39] <MrNaz> perhaps i have a corrupt jar ?
[13:39] <toad_> MrNaz: out of disk space? anything stupid like that?
[13:39] <MrNaz> i shall re-download it
[13:40] <toad_> you mean the installer jar? yes, try that
[13:40] <toad_> MrNaz: installer worked for me
[13:41] <MrNaz> ill try it again...
[13:41] <toad_> MrNaz: if it doesn't work for you, try downloading the file manually ...
[13:41] <toad_> http://downloads.freenetproject.org/alpha/freenet-stable-latest.jar
[13:41] <MrNaz> is there a md5sum or something i can use to check the d/l ?
[13:41] <MrNaz> can i point the installer to the file locally? or do i just put it in the same dir?
[13:42] <toad_> you can put it in the same dir i think
[13:42] <toad_> or maybe not i dunno
[13:42] <toad_> you can use the tarball if all else fails
[13:42] <toad_> but i'd like to know why it's not working for you
[13:42] <MrNaz> hehe so would i :)
[13:43] <MrNaz> anyways ill try re-download it
[13:43] <MrNaz> and install... sorry another delay here... the hardware im on is slow as crap and <insert java related snide remark here>
[13:43] <toad_> :)
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[13:48] <MrNaz> toad_: i also get this error in the install log window: mv: cannot stat `plugins/JSTUN.jar.url': No such file or directory
[13:49] <MrNaz> oh and its still happening after i re-wgot the newinstall.jar file
[13:51] <toad_> MrNaz: hmmm
[13:52] <MrNaz> http://www.mrnaz.com/static/freenet_error2.png <-- there you can see the full process as well as all errors
[13:52] <MrNaz> could it be that sun java is not in the path? does the installer need to call java to do those processes? the java thats in the path is the gnu java jvm
[13:53] <toad_> MrNaz: yes, that's almost certainly it
[13:53] <MrNaz> right
[13:53] <MrNaz> time to learn how to delete and remake a symlink
[13:53] * MrNaz dusts off his RTFMing gloves
[13:53] * basxx (n=basxx@) Quit ("Leaving")
[13:55] <toad_> MrNaz: make-jpkg ?
[13:56] <toad_> MrNaz: on debian, there's a package you can get to turn a downloaded JVM into a java package
[13:57] <MrNaz> ive done it already... i did this: rm /usr/bin/java && ln -s /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun/jre/bin/java /usr/bin/java
[13:58] <MrNaz> now i can just type java -jar newinstaller and it's working
[13:58] <toad_> it worked?
[13:59] <MrNaz> trying it...
[13:59] * MrNaz mumbles something about java again
[13:59] * MrNaz does a drumroll...
[14:00] <MrNaz> it passed the STUN error...
[14:00] * MrNaz intensifies drumroll...
[14:01] * MrNaz gets tired hands from doing said drumroll for too long....
[14:01] <toad_> _ph00: yes, frost isn't ideal, but there's a big divide between the public community and the anonymous one...
[14:01] <toad_> _ph00: well, i turn off Anonymous poster support when it gets too bad
[14:01] <_ph00> yes
[14:02] <toad_> _ph00: and I think that we need to deal with the spam now so we don't have to deal with it later
[14:02] <ljn1981> Hmm?
[14:02] <_ph00> I'm almost positive about this: *some* of the freenet trolls must belong to BadGys inc.
[14:02] <toad_> Frost needs to have a proper web of trust to deal with it
[14:02] <_ph00> and a number of self proclaiming pedos as well
[14:02] <toad_> I don't know if it'd be in the interests of the bad guys to spam now
[14:02] <toad_> because spamming now will result in frost having real countermeasures to it
[14:02] <toad_> which is WHAT WE WANT
[14:03] <_ph00> how about freenet getting banned?
[14:03] <_ph00> what do we need to be prepared for?
[14:03] <toad_> ljn1981: I finally persuaded _ph00 to take a private conversation public
[14:03] <toad_> _ph00: anonymous development?
[14:03] <toad_> _ph00: and darknet
[14:03] <toad_> _ph00: and in the longer term, high latency transport support
[14:03] <_ph00> we need to teach ppl how to use darknet the right way
[14:04] <toad_> yeah
[14:04] <MrNaz> _ph00: i dont see freenet ever being banned for illicit content any more than i see the internet itself being banned for illicit content
[14:04] <_ph00> as long as they keep sawpping refs with random ppl is just as bad as opennet
[14:04] <toad_> but arguably we need opennet to get the massive number of users we need for darknet to be feasible
[14:04] <MrNaz> toad_: IT WORKED
[14:04] * MrNaz dances around a bit
[14:04] <toad_> so we need to a) make an opennet, and b) get people on opennet to link to each other via darknet connections
[14:04] <MrNaz> prepare for MrNaz's Darknet of Doom!
[14:04] <toad_> of course if they log traffic they may be able to find people anyway... but i don't think they'll admit to it
[14:04] <_ph00> I see freenet being banned becuse it makes people anonymous, not monitorable, not for the content
[14:05] <toad_> not for some considerable time anyway
[14:05] <toad_> _ph00: well, you need an excuse
[14:05] <toad_> _ph00: in the EU, we might get banned through the IPRED2
[14:05] <MrNaz> toad_: well combining tor with freenet eliminates traffic logging attacks
[14:05] <toad_> MrNaz: not really
[14:05] <_ph00> an excuse? for what? they will simply say 'ppl on freenet *may* be terrorists
[14:05] <_ph00> here
[14:05] <toad_> MrNaz: well maybe it does
[14:05] <_ph00> you got a good excuse
[14:05] <toad_> MrNaz: but it cuts performance dramatically
[14:05] <toad_> MrNaz: and worse, Tor is harvestable
[14:06] <toad_> even if freenet nodes on tor aren't
[14:06] <_ph00> toad_ what's ipred2?
[14:06] <toad_> _ph00: evil
[14:06] <_ph00> yeah, ok
[14:06] <toad_> http://www.fipr.org/copyright/ipred2.html
[14:06] <MrNaz> toad_: well freenet isnt supposed to be a place for getting l33t warez... and those who are using freenet for what it is supposed to be used for are sending each other a few hundred k of subversive documents, not vin diesel's latest movie
[14:07] <_ph00> but what's that about? like US patiot act?
[14:07] * _ph00 checks that link
[14:07] <toad_> _ph00: criminal sanctions for patent infringement, inciting, aiding and abetting IPR infringement in general, all sorts of fun
[14:07] <MrNaz> toad_: what do you mean harvestable?
[14:07] <_ph00> oh
[14:07] <_ph00> that
[14:07] <MrNaz> as in the nodes are published?
[14:07] <toad_> MrNaz: you can find all nodes rather easily
[14:07] <toad_> _ph00: yeah, we might be able to argue that we're not aiding and abetting copyright infringement, but i doubt it
[14:08] <toad_> MrNaz: that's why we need darknet
[14:08] <MrNaz> toad_: how would one argue that freenet aids and abets IP infringement any more than the internet itself?
[14:08] <ljn1981> MrNaz: And tor only do TCP not UDP which is what freenet use.
[14:08] <MrNaz> ljn1981: oh... freenet is UDP ?
[14:08] <toad_> MrNaz: because it protects the posters and doesn't respect cease and desist notices
[14:09] <_ph00> ok, we need to protest against copyright/intellectual property laws, but that's anotehr story. as long as that's such a *big* issue (they made it big...) it could be a possible argument for banning freenet
[14:09] <_ph00> but what I was talking about was other
[14:09] <MrNaz> toad_ yea... i naievely think courts will consider that to be a feeble argument
[14:10] <_ph00> I say, no matter *why* (or what excuse they 'll use), freenet will get banned sooner or later
[14:10] <_ph00> and we need to prepare for that
[14:10] <MrNaz> _ph00: i disagree... i think we should specifically NOT protect IPR laws
[14:10] <toad_> MrNaz: I hope so
[14:10] <_ph00> well, ok, but you know
[14:10] <toad_> MrNaz: but our basic ideology is anti-censorship-law
[14:10] <MrNaz> mainly because you CANT protect IP while guaranteeing anonymity
[14:10] <_ph00> hope for the best, prepare for the worst
[14:10] <toad_> MrNaz: judges don't like being worked around
[14:11] <MrNaz> yea...
[14:11] <_ph00> so we *hope* freenet won't get banned, but we should prepare for it anyway
[14:11] <MrNaz> cant we all just... get along?
[14:11] <_ph00> get along?
[14:11] <toad_> we can as long as freenet doesn't really work and has few users and little content
[14:11] <_ph00> what you mean get along
[14:11] <toad_> :)
[14:12] <MrNaz> _ph00: as in stop fighting and invite the fairies to come dancing in the meadows with us
[14:12] <_ph00> so what wee need to do is: you devs keep working hard, and we non-devs keep pumping content into freenet
[14:12] * MikeW (i=Mike@) has joined #freenet
[14:12] <MrNaz> toad_: what do you mean "doesn't really work" ?
[14:12] <_ph00> that's what I say to noobs all the time, don't limit to browsing/downloading: upload files, build freesites
[14:12] * timmy2chk (n=Vincent@) Quit ()
[14:13] <MrNaz> i *hope* you mean "isnt easy to use" as opposed to "fundamentally flawed in concept"
[14:13] <_ph00> toad_ you see why I prefer pvt discussions? here is way haredr to keep focus
[14:14] <MrNaz> oh sorry... didnt mean to take the focus away from you _ph00 :P
[14:14] <_ph00> and we don't even have many ppl talking, basically only one, and not even trolling
[14:14] <MrNaz> oh... you want a troll? hmm lemme see...
[14:14] <_ph00> mrnaz np, it's me not you: of course you shaould say what you have to say
[14:14] <MrNaz> oh wait freenet uses java doesnt it? great! this'll be easy
[14:14] <MrNaz> :P
[14:15] <toad_> _ph00: the problem with private discussions is I end up having exactly the same discussion with 10 different people, one at a time
[14:15] <toad_> at least here it's logged publicly (OH NO!)
[14:15] <_ph00> I have a one-way brain, I find difficult to talk to more than one person at the time
[14:15] <MrNaz> toad_ i'm still anxiously waiting for clarification on what you meant by "doesn't really work"
[14:15] <toad_> well, that's what threads are for... :)
[14:15] <_ph00> yes, I get the point
[14:16] <toad_> MrNaz: 1sec
[14:16] <MrNaz> np
[14:16] <_ph00> you want to skip having the same dicussion several times
[14:16] <toad_> MrNaz: freenet has ALWAYS had problems with, for example, load balancing/load limiting
[14:16] <toad_> hopefully we can fix these (more or less) once and for all in the coming months
[14:17] <toad_> MrNaz: also, it's so small that it's not really telling us much about whether it can work
[14:17] <toad_> MrNaz: and the connections aren't small world because we have a "fake darknet" topology instead of either a true darknet or a true opennet
[14:17] <toad_> fake darknet = 95% of people get their connections from #freenet-refs :(
[14:17] <_ph00> we should try to appeal to ppl who want to support freenet and can economically afford it, trying to get as many as possible to set up nodes on big fat connections, possibly servers
[14:18] <toad_> i don't think that will help that much
[14:18] <MrNaz> toad_: yes i had a questoin about that...
[14:18] <toad_> ubernodes aren't that great topologically
[14:18] <_ph00> hm. servers can easily get shutted down if someone has something to say about content...
[14:18] <XTorchedX> it's just connectivity you need
[14:18] <_ph00> big fat *home* connections would be best...
[14:18] <XTorchedX> swarms are better than fat pipes
[14:18] <toad_> right
[14:19] <toad_> 10,000 home nodes beats 100 big fat nodes on T3's
[14:19] <XTorchedX> yeah
[14:19] <_ph00> if I could get around my damn ISP nat I could even set up a tor middle-man server
[14:19] <toad_> however, home nodes individually suck because of ISP nat's and because of severely limited upstream bandwidth
[14:19] <MrNaz> toad_: lets say someone were to launch a concerted attack on freenode, and saturated the freenet channel with references to a malicious network... anyone who connected to it and published information to it would be known to be a publisher as they would only have connections to them from malicious nodes
[14:20] <toad_> which practically means you won't be able to download much faster than you can upload, on average
[14:20] <_ph00> and my node would work better, because I can only connect to others right now, not accept connections. but the transfer rate is good
[14:20] <toad_> MrNaz: yes, but they could just log all the refs referred to on #freenet-refs instead
[14:20] <toad_> MrNaz: #freenet-refs sucks, no two ways about it
[14:20] <XTorchedX> i don't have any references
[14:20] <_ph00> that's basically why you don't want to swap refs on freenet-refs
[14:20] <XTorchedX> hook me up yo
[14:21] <_ph00> that's a transitory solution
[14:21] <toad_> well, you should connect privately rather than pasting your ref in a pastebin, at least ...
[14:21] <toad_> .fref files are auto-added when you double click them on windows
[14:21] <_ph00> that's already one step further
[14:21] <toad_> XTorchedX: #freenet-refs ? i've just met you; i might add MrNaz though
[14:21] <toad_> since he's helped us with debugging ...
[14:22] <MrNaz> aww...
[14:22] * MrNaz gets all warm and fuzzy
[14:22] <XTorchedX> yeah i only installed the thing like 2 days ago
[14:22] <XTorchedX> 2 days ago being yesterday
[14:22] <toad_> but i fear that we'll end up with major centralization if i'm too generous :)
[14:22] <XTorchedX> being 1 day ago
[14:23] <_ph00> I see ppl on freenet-refs exchnging refs by mail, which is somewhat better than using a pastebin, but they don't even think about the fact that all emails are logged these days, because of the damn "war" on terror (which I think is a fake, but that's anotehr story) all our mails are logged. that's the truth. we want to use encrypted mail
[14:23] <toad_> they're not
[14:23] <toad_> well
[14:23] <XTorchedX> what we need to do is write the refs on postit notes, walk to each others houses and make sure the notes are burned as soon as we use it
[14:23] <MrNaz> toad_: i have another issue... doh... freenet isnt starting... well it is, but its still stopping just like before...
[14:24] <toad_> in theory their headers are logged
[14:24] <MrNaz> toad_: http://rafb.net/paste/results/l0THYU70.html
[14:24] <_ph00> anyways, the first thing to do is make freenet BIG and pump lots of content in it
[14:24] <toad_> in practice the NSA logs everything, but they won't risk that on minor stuff
[14:24] <XTorchedX> i heard there's a lot of drug content on freenet
[14:24] <XTorchedX> that still true?
[14:24] <MrNaz> toad_: i'll uninstall and reinstall again... just to ensure that there are no corrupt files left over from the bad installs
[14:24] <toad_> XTorchedX: there's some ...
[14:24] <toad_> MrNaz: :<
[14:24] <XTorchedX> is it technical or cultural?
[14:25] <_ph00> nsa logs everything in US, and at least that's known fact. in EU the european counterparts of american NSA won't even admit that they log stuff
[14:25] <toad_> XTorchedX: yes, although the refs are quite long
[14:25] <XTorchedX> use a printer
[14:25] <toad_> XTorchedX: some of both; 0.7 is significantly smaller than 0.5 content-wise as yet
[14:25] <XTorchedX> ohh ok
[14:25] <toad_> we're always looking for new contributors though! :)
[14:25] <XTorchedX> i used 0.5 for a bit
[14:25] <XTorchedX> i was thinking of starting a blog
[14:25] <_ph00> do that!
[14:25] <_ph00> the more the better
[14:25] <toad_> good idea
[14:26] <XTorchedX> don't tell me what to do :(
[14:26] <toad_> make a flog
[14:26] <_ph00> build freesites, upload files, etc
[14:26] <toad_> well, it would be a good idea to make a flog
[14:26] <XTorchedX> stop it!
[14:26] <toad_> far be it from me to give you an order
[14:26] <XTorchedX> damn straight
[14:26] <_ph00> do whatever the fuck you want then
[14:26] <XTorchedX> thanks _ph00
[14:26] <_ph00> I was just saying thatb it was a good idea for me, then you decide what to do
[14:26] <toad_> XTorchedX: if you hear me giving you an _order_, as opposed to a suggestion, either take it as a suggestion, or tell me to fuck off :)
[14:27] <XTorchedX> don't worry toad_, i do that to everyone
[14:27] <_ph00> yeah
[14:27] <MrNaz> XTorchedX: i order you to defy every order i give you, except this one! bitch!
[14:27] <_ph00> those were suggestions, not orders
[14:27] <XTorchedX> go and fuck yourself MrNaz
[14:27] <MrNaz> see? he's my bitch
[14:27] <XTorchedX> no, you're your own bitch
[14:27] <toad_> hehe
[14:28] <MrNaz> XTorchedX: you're not very bright are you? :P
[14:28] <XTorchedX> i am the sharpest knife in the drawer MrNaz
[14:28] <_ph00> stop that both of you
[14:28] * MrNaz chuckles and wanders off
[14:28] <_ph00> THAT's an order
[14:28] <_ph00> :P
[14:28] <MrNaz> haha
[14:29] <XTorchedX> i should probably be doing about 4 other things
[14:29] <XTorchedX> than using irc
[14:29] <_ph00> btw, we don't have any answer to my question: what do we do when freenet gets banned?
[14:29] <XTorchedX> we become outlaws by default _ph00
[14:29] <MrNaz> _ph00: access freenet via Tor
[14:30] <_ph00> well... of course. then what. how do we stay out of jail and keep running freenet?
[14:30] <_ph00> mrnaz, you can't
[14:30] <MrNaz> oh yea
[14:30] <MrNaz> UDP
[14:30] <_ph00> tor=tcp, freenet =udp
[14:30] <_ph00> right
[14:30] <MrNaz> why was freenet designed to use UDP ?
[14:30] <_ph00> and btw, that would overflow many tor servers, I guess
[14:31] <MrNaz> _ph00: not really... there are idiots torrenting over Tor as wel speak
[14:31] <toad_> MrNaz: lower latency; we don't need ordered delivery for most messages
[14:31] <_ph00> yeah, and why is it java anyway? java sucks, anybody know that
[14:31] <ljn1981> _ph00: mailvault.com
[14:31] <_ph00> let's drop those questions
[14:31] <toad_> Tor won't help
[14:31] <XTorchedX> yeah but java sucks in a universal sense
[14:31] <toad_> what we do is this:
[14:31] * ljn1981 's reading buffer
[14:31] <XTorchedX> so you'll get an equal level of suckage across platforms
[14:31] <toad_> 1. make a darknet.
[14:31] <toad_> and i mean a REAL darknet
[14:31] <MrNaz> toad_: is there that much of a latency bonus going from tcp to udp?
[14:32] <toad_> 2. make it possible to develop freenet over freenet
[14:32] <toad_> 3. investigate steganography over the internet
[14:32] <_ph00> mrnaz, I torify tracker connections only, not p2p connections: that's right way I heard. not totally safe but at least it won't choke tor
[14:32] <MrNaz> toad_: steganography is utterly broken... the NSA and other intelligence orgs vacuum the net for steganographised data as though it were plain text
[14:33] <toad_> 4. investigate high latency transports: passing boxes of disks around, local wifi rendezvous, parasitic internet transports etc. make freenet able to usefully use them and do high latency stuff.
[14:33] <_ph00> so the basic point is using darknet the way it should be used
[14:33] <_ph00> the paranoid way
[14:33] <MrNaz> _ph00: that is the right way... but there are idiots who push torrent DATA over tor
[14:33] <toad_> right, true darknet is the basic element
[14:33] <_ph00> tell as many of those idiot as you can how that should be done
[14:33] <MrNaz> _ph00: i prefer to shoot them
[14:33] <_ph00> hm
[14:34] <_ph00> well, shoot them then. but shut down their p2p torified BT clients before you do that
[14:34] <XTorchedX> this freenet proxy shortcut isn't working
[14:34] <_ph00> freenet proxy shortcut?
[14:34] <XTorchedX> the desktop thing it makes
[14:34] <_ph00> you mean http://127.0.0.1:8888?
[14:34] <XTorchedX> i'm using windows words
[14:34] <XTorchedX> yeah
[14:35] <_ph00> words?
[14:35] <XTorchedX> words
[14:35] <XTorchedX> terminology
[14:35] <_ph00> k
[14:35] <XTorchedX> YOU SPEAKA DA ENGLISH?
[14:35] <XTorchedX> anyway, it's saying it can't connect on 8888
[14:35] <_ph00> if that's not working, maybe your node is down. assuming you have *some* connecting peers
[14:36] <_ph00> xtorchedx fuck off
[14:36] <XTorchedX> i ahve 0 connecting peers, i don't know why it wouldn't be running
[14:36] <_ph00> do I speaka da englisha good enough for you
[14:36] <XTorchedX> go fuck yourself :D
[14:36] * _ph00 ignores xtorchedx
[14:36] <toad_> _ph00: shut up
[14:36] <toad_> XTorchedX: you have a problem?
[14:36] <XTorchedX> yeah
[14:37] <_ph00> what shut up, he posted an all caps message saying I couldn't speak...
[14:37] <toad_> what's the problem?
[14:37] <XTorchedX> freenet isn't running
[14:37] <XTorchedX> and i don't know why
[14:37] <toad_> you installed it?
[14:37] <XTorchedX> yes
[14:37] <toad_> using the installer?
[14:37] <XTorchedX> yes
[14:37] <XTorchedX> it worked yesterday
[14:38] <toad_> ah
[14:38] <toad_> on unix?
[14:38] <XTorchedX> ubuntu
[14:38] <toad_> okay
[14:38] <XTorchedX> well
[14:38] <toad_> you need to add it to /etc/init.d
[14:38] <XTorchedX> kubuntu
[14:38] <toad_> the installer doesn't automatically put a service in
[14:38] <toad_> however it does provide an init script i believe
[14:38] <_ph00> or, start it manually
[14:38] <MrNaz> toad_: freenet is working... thanks for your help with this and sorry to bug you for so long :)
[14:38] <toad_> or start it manually indeed
[14:38] <_ph00> ./run.sh start
[14:39] <ljn1981> What toad_ said.
[14:39] <XTorchedX> hmm ok
[14:39] * ljn1981 finishes reading buffer
[14:40] <ljn1981> Hmm
[14:40] <MrNaz> toad_: mind if i PM you to exchange references?
[14:40] <toad_> sure
[14:40] <toad_> please do
[14:40] <_ph00> hehe... I know exactly what the next log freak post will be about :P
[14:41] <XTorchedX> ahh ok
[14:41] <XTorchedX> much better
[14:41] <ljn1981> I wonder what happened to the net today. My queued requests that have been almost stalled for a week are finishing in almost 50% of the cases.
[14:42] <ljn1981> Whoa lag
[14:42] <_ph00> you run tor, you take the lag into account
[14:43] <_ph00> oh you mean on freenet
[14:43] <_ph00> ok
[14:45] <XTorchedX> so what do i do to make it run on start up? just copy run.sh into init.d?
[14:47] <ljn1981> _ph00: Nah on here, I was about 40 lines behind
[14:47] <toad_> yeah, then update-rc.d freenet defaults
[14:47] <toad_> link it, don't copy it
[14:47] <toad_> in fact...
[14:47] <toad_> it may have to cd to the right dir
[14:48] <toad_> well try it
[14:48] <toad_> ln -s `pwd`/run.sh /etc/init.d/freenet ; update-rc.d freenet defaults
[14:50] <XTorchedX> man i am so lost
[14:53] <MrNaz> is there any harm in publishing a freenet node reference on one's blog? i.e., the harm is in people ACCEPTING potentially malicious nodes correct? not in malicious nodes connecting to you?
[14:54] <MrNaz> well i'd assume only people who knew me and trusted me and got the reference when i told them "my ref is at www.foobar.com you can get it from there if you like"
[14:55] <_ph00> you want to run freenet on an encrypted partition, so you'll need to decrypt/mount after startup, which makes manual start the best solution... if you don't boot too often. The 'best' way to run freenet, I heard, is to leave it running instead to do up-and-down all the time, so having to manually start it once a week or once avery couple of days is not big deal
[14:56] <_ph00> mrnaz, doing that, the fact that the real world you runs a freenet node is known
[14:56] <MrNaz> is that a problem? freenode isnt illegal yet...
[14:57] <_ph00> not yet, right
[14:57] <_ph00> I did that as well
[14:57] <XTorchedX> yeah, you're fairly alarmist _ph00
[14:57] <MrNaz> right... and i also assume there is no security in obscurity
[14:57] <_ph00> but when it will get banned, and it will
[14:57] <_ph00> I'll need to get a new IP
[14:57] <MrNaz> so just not telling people doesnt provide any more security in my books than hiring an add in the NYT and publishing it there firefox style
[14:58] <_ph00> which is not so difficult, switching isp would do, or terminating your contract and open a new one
[14:58] <_ph00> only a bit annoying
[14:58] <MrNaz> _ph00: i dont share your pessimism
[14:58] <_ph00> as I said, hope for the best, prepare for the worst
[14:58] <MrNaz> at least, not in this regard
[14:58] <MrNaz> i dont see legal structures in place that would allow them to single out freenet
[14:58] <MrNaz> not currently anyway
[14:58] <_ph00> I mean we all hope it won't get banned, but we need to know what to do if does
[14:59] <MrNaz> well i'll take my blog posting down for starters :)
[14:59] <toad_> MrNaz: the harm is in connecting to malicious nodes
[14:59] <MrNaz> toad_: so if i publish my ref, but only connect to people i trust, is that a good policy?
[15:00] <toad_> MrNaz: only having true darknet links, and keeping your ref to yourself, is not "security by obscurity"
[15:00] <toad_> freenet can be attacked *much* more easily if the network is known
[15:00] <MrNaz> toad_: well if its the case that freenode refs should not be leaked to untrusted parties, shouldnt there be a supporting PKI around freenet to facilitate reference exchanges?
[15:01] <toad_> MrNaz: and how exactly would you establish a PKI?
[15:01] <toad_> MrNaz: node connections *are* the PKI
[15:01] <toad_> you only connect to people you trust
[15:01] <toad_> you exchange keys with them so you can connect to them
[15:01] <toad_> how you do so is up to you
[15:01] <MrNaz> toad_: well... simply bundle in a tool that people can use to encrypt their reference with someone else's public key and send them the cipher text
[15:02] <toad_> well ... how do you get their public key exactly?
[15:02] <MrNaz> that way malicious parties cant eavesdrop to obtain references
[15:02] <toad_> it's not that easy
[15:02] <toad_> you have to exchange the public key in the first place
[15:02] <MrNaz> toad_: the public keys are obtained from the same key set that they use to sign their docs
[15:03] <toad_> to sign their what?
[15:03] <toad_> obviously you can just use somebody's well known GPG key
[15:03] <toad_> but that's nothing to do with freenet
[15:03] <MrNaz> so ig i want to exchange refs with the publisher of fooblog, i can get his public key, verify that it is the key of the same blog author i want to reference exchange with, and then send my ref with that key
[15:04] <toad_> sure, the easiest way is to send them a private message on Frost
[15:04] <toad_> or via freemail
[15:04] <MrNaz> frost?
[15:04] <MrNaz> i shall read
[15:05] <MrNaz> oh... yea
[15:05] <toad_> INFO | jvm 1 | 2006/09/24 06:52:26 | LOCATION 127: 0.9979393422243327
[15:05] <toad_> INFO | jvm 1 | 2006/09/24 06:52:38 | LOCATION 128: 2.0
[15:05] <toad_> hmmm
[15:05] <toad_> that's not good, it means only 127 nodes actually online ...
[15:05] <_ph00> you caan publish your refs on the frost freenet-refs board but you don't want to sign your message
[15:06] <toad_> _ph00: well yes if you want to exchange with random people
[15:06] <_ph00> yes
[15:06] <MrNaz> i was just thinking that if it is beneficial to freenet for there to be *no* untrusted reference exchanges, wouldnt it be a good idea to bundle freenet with a GPG messaging tool, or at least include in the instructions a section on where to get one, install it and use it ?
[15:06] <toad_> otoh i might get to know somebody very well through frost and trust him well enough to exchange refs
[15:06] <toad_> MrNaz: there are loads of ways to privately exchange short files between two people
[15:06] <_ph00> hmmm... that could be a completely different someone
[15:07] <_ph00> I mean, I probably have ppl who trust me at least as a not-badguy, but I could be an NSA angent undercover, what do you know.
[15:07] <ljn1981> toad_> that's not good, it means only 127 nodes actually online ... <--- probe?
[15:07] <_ph00> the true darknet would be connecting to ppl you know and trust in real life
[15:08] <toad_> somebody who has some refs, but isn't connected to me, please telnet to port 2323, type PROBEALL:
[15:08] <toad_> then tail -f wrapper.log
[15:08] <_ph00> (and they could still ber undercover agents...)
[15:08] <_ph00> but ok
[15:08] <toad_> _ph00: for a loose understanding of "real life"
[15:08] <_ph00> enough with the paranoia for today
[15:08] <toad_> when it reaches LOCATION <something>: 2.0
[15:08] <toad_> then send me the wrapper.log
[15:08] <_ph00> real life I mean ppl you know in person, not only on the internet
[15:09] <toad_> _ph00: not necessarily, some long links are useful
[15:09] <_ph00> well, yes
[15:09] <toad_> _ph00: and I know many folk online better than i know many folk who i've physically met
[15:09] <toad_> i've only met ian a few times, for example
[15:09] <_ph00> ok
[15:09] <MrNaz> i also know folk online who i'd trust far more than people i know in real life
[15:09] <_ph00> yeah, I know what you mean
[15:09] <MrNaz> hell there are people i know in real life who i'd rather trust some random stranger over
[15:10] <_ph00> that's true
[15:11] <_ph00> I guess the internet has gone so far that you often know ppl on the net way better than you know some of those you know in 'real life'
[15:11] <_ph00> gotta make some phone calls
[15:11] <_ph00> bbl
[15:12] * KTV (n=ktv@) has joined #freenet
[15:13] * ZwiSter (n=arne@) has joined #freenet
[15:19] <toad_> anyone got a freemail address?
[15:20] <toad_> I need to test whether freemail actually works ...
[15:22] * MikeW (i=Mike@) Quit ()
[15:24] <ljn1981> What is the lowes store size the node will allow you to set? Will a node of this size be of any real use to the network? I mean it propably will not be too useful for storage but how about for routing?
[15:24] <toad_> i dunno if we have a lower limit
[15:24] <toad_> for routing yes, we keep everything in RAM
[15:24] <toad_> or in temp files
[15:25] <ljn1981> Would it be a good or bad thing for the network to set up a few small nodes like that?
[15:26] <toad_> maybe
[15:27] <toad_> a liveCD that just keeps the store in RAM might be nice
[15:28] <ljn1981> The livecd approach would add to network churn tho
[15:28] <ljn1981> Unless you keep the ref and peers on a memory card between sessions of course
[15:29] <ljn1981> or were you thinking for longterm use in your own machine and not for taking the cd with you?
[15:29] <toad_> well you could use it for opennet
[15:29] <toad_> or you could keep the ref and peers on a card, as you say
[15:30] <ljn1981> Yeah but I have no intention of doing opennet unless I run out of peers that want to do darknet when we get opennet
[15:30] <toad_> yeah i suppose
[15:31] <MrNaz> probably a noob question... i have a blog, is it possible to publish dynamic content onto freenet? i know that it'd be utterly unanonymous, but i dont care if i get linked to typical blog drivel
[15:32] <ljn1981> Maybe we should suggest these guys include freenet when we get more stable? http://kaos.to/cms
[15:32] <toad_> no dynamic content at present
[15:32] <toad_> ljn1981: what do they do?
[15:33] <ljn1981> An openbsd based livecd with tor and other stuff for anonymity
[15:34] <ljn1981> And they're supposed to have an installable version out soon too
[15:34] <ljn1981> Anonym.OS and SAMAEL respectively
[15:34] <toad_> ah cool
[15:34] <MrNaz> yea ive always thought the idea of the mobile anonymous political subversive agent armed with a livecd using freenet and tor to hide his present location when doing things and a USB key filled with his material was a sexy concept
[15:35] <toad_> yeah
[15:35] <toad_> the problem is you have to have some people to connect to
[15:35] <toad_> otoh if it's an ephemeral thing, you can use opennet
[15:42] <_ph00> I have an openbsd privacy-oriented live-cd called...
[15:42] * _ph00 checks
[15:43] <_ph00> "shmoo bsd"
[15:43] <_ph00> runs a fluxbox-like gui
[15:43] * ZwiSter is now known as ZwiSter_away
[15:43] <_ph00> I don't know much about that stuff, so I don't know if it's actually fluxbox, balckbox or whatever
[15:44] <_ph00> you run the live cd and surf the net automativally thru tor on firefox
[15:44] <_ph00> c
[15:46] <ljn1981> Might be the same thing, I think they had somethig to do with shmoo too.
[15:48] <_ph00> I got that a couple of months ago, I only tested it a couple of times, because I already know how to use tor anyway, but it could be cool to use on work pc, where they have very limited usability for non damin users
[15:48] <_ph00> lots of banned sites etc
[15:48] <ljn1981> http://kaos.to/cms/content/view/14/32/
[15:48] <ljn1981> Says it was released at shmoocon 2006
[15:49] * TheShado (i=no@) has joined #freenet
[15:49] <_ph00> must be it
[15:49] <_ph00> the one I have
[15:50] <_ph00> yeah. maybe offering them to include freenet wouldn't be a bad idea... but you 'd need some RAM
[15:50] <_ph00> I mean, to have the stor on memory
[15:52] <ljn1981> And freenet releases need to be less frequent too, so it'd be best to wait till after 0.7 is declared stable
[15:52] <ljn1981> s/releases/mandatory releases/
[15:53] * smartone66 (n=boo@) has joined #freenet
[15:55] * droden (n=droden@) Quit ("Leaving")
[16:09] <nextgens> hi
[16:09] <Zothar_Work> howdy
[16:10] <nextgens> ljn1981> mandatory releases aren't that frequent, are they ?
[16:10] <nextgens> Zothar_Work> not too bad
[16:11] * yopsi (n=y@) has joined #freenet
[16:14] <ljn1981> nextgens: Not anymore but frequent enough to be a problem for putting freenet on a livecd
[16:14] <ljn1981> IMO anyway
[16:14] <toad_> well yeah, which is why you need auto-update-over-mandatory
[16:16] <nextgens> ;)
[16:16] <nextgens> toad_> and binary blobs
[16:16] <nextgens> toad_> btw, what's your current todo ?
[16:16] <toad_> i'm trying to write a status update
[16:16] <nextgens> cool
[16:18] <ljn1981> toad_: Nice, figured out what the status is then? :P
[16:19] <toad_> not really :|
[16:19] <smartone66> hey, how do you find more boards?
[16:19] <ljn1981> Heh it'll be fun writing the report then
[16:19] <toad_> how many freesites are there on TPI?
[16:19] <smartone66> hey toad
[16:21] * sanity (n=ian@) has joined #freenet
[16:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:21] <ljn1981> smartone66: Update the boards board on frost and then click the globe at the top
[16:21] <Zothar_Work> toad_: 129 according to AnotherIndex
[16:22] <toad_> 154 apparently
[16:22] <ljn1981> AnotherIndex thing there are 153 sites and it can reach 140some of those.
[16:23] <ljn1981> Oh one more, i wonder what that's about
[16:24] <smartone66> thats it hu?
[16:25] <smartone66> so theres only like... 60 boards
[16:25] <smartone66> whats the link to AnotherIndex?
[16:25] <_ph00> we were talking yesterday about the possibility of biulding a self-mirroring freenet app (but I can't code *anything*, I can only come up with ideas). The idea was a tool that copies websites on the 'regular' internet and uploads them on freenet, possibly with an update feature, so you can update the freenet version of the site each time the 'regular internet' version is updated
[16:25] <_ph00> could that be done?
[16:26] * n0ob (n=travis@) has joined #freenet
[16:26] <ljn1981> smartone66: I'd say 60 active ones sound about right, but there are a lot more, they might not have been posted recently though
[16:26] <nextgens> _ph00> it's called httprack and freesitemgr
[16:26] <_ph00> so there is already
[16:26] <_ph00> cool
[16:27] <_ph00> now all I need to do is learn how to use those things and ask webmasters if they want thir sites mirrired on freenet
[16:27] <_ph00> (I guess I 'd have to learn how to type first)
[16:28] <ljn1981> USK@c55vMxUl-T-lD3nv0iOaXF~G1hnY6pOMRbzZSwACMmY,yd8~uwUmGm164-ipStoiBOJVjkbbYXJMlD~H5ftPxIA,AQABAAE/Indicia/24/
[16:28] <ljn1981> USK@e4TEIN5l1nkn6kjl63XBgYTYobmwGvtnyK2YW0b0ajo,hv-2~OfetXkb0FhDuPxorWIf0wXeZKPEfdIhwyh-mhk,AQABAAE/AnotherIndex/24/
[16:28] <ljn1981> Those are good smartone66
[16:29] <ljn1981> Could you find someone to teach me too? My spelling seem to have run away while I was eating dinner
[16:29] * nextgens thinks indicia ought to be in the default bookmark set
[16:29] <nextgens> AnotherIndex is ugly
[16:29] <nextgens> indicia isn't imho
[16:30] <Zothar_Work> AnotherIndex doesn't use graphics, completes page loads faster
[16:30] <nextgens> toad_> http://archives.freenetproject.org/message/20060908.222130.2ff96508.en.html
[16:30] * _ph00 reads http://www.freenet.org.nz/pyfcp/freesitemgr.1.html
[16:30] <_ph00> hhmmm...
[16:31] <_ph00> no gui?
[16:31] <ljn1981> AnotherIndex is clean and efficient
[16:31] <_ph00> HHMMM.....
[16:31] <nextgens> is there any GUI for cadaver ?
[16:31] <Zothar_Work> _ph00: it was being worked on, but we haven't heard much from the primary developer in awhile
[16:31] <_ph00> someone should invent one
[16:31] <_ph00> hm
[16:32] <toad_> nextgens: does it still have unexplained links to child porn sites with the description being "cp" or "ua" or something?
[16:33] <nextgens> I dunno, I never go to those categories :p
[16:33] * nextgens checks
[16:34] <_ph00> I can't stop lauching sice I checked out the 'cp circle' board
[16:34] <_ph00> laughing*
[16:34] <_ph00> BRB...
[16:34] <smartone66> are we still talking about anotherindex
[16:34] <smartone66> ?
[16:36] <ljn1981> smartone66: Indicia I think
[16:36] <ljn1981> _ph00: Why do you even bother adding the board?
[16:39] <toad_> nextgens: neither do i normally
[16:39] <toad_> nextgens: but if it does then that's a blocker
[16:40] <toad_> because most newbies won't know the wide range of freenet acronyms for S-H-I-T
[16:40] <Griffon26> toad_: I'm here now
[16:40] <toad_> Griffon26: hi
[16:40] <Griffon26> hey dude
[16:40] <toad_> Griffon26: is your node still getting 100% cpu usage etc?
[16:40] <ljn1981> toad_: I don't like this.....
[16:40] <toad_> Griffon26: does it spontaneously restart? have you tried higher memory settings?
[16:40] <toad_> ljn1981: which?
[16:41] <ljn1981> http://dark-code.bulix.org/i70j3q-18351?raw
[16:41] <toad_> ljn1981: :<
[16:41] <toad_> ljn1981: it's possible there are bugs in it
[16:41] <Griffon26> toad_: I can't increase memory settings without it swapping. It only has 256MB of phys memory
[16:41] <toad_> okay...
[16:41] <ljn1981> And I still can't see your flog update and the latest version of anotherindex I can see is 24
[16:41] <toad_> do you still get 100% cpu a lot?
[16:41] <ljn1981> No
[16:42] <ljn1981> Oh not me
[16:42] <_ph00> ljn1981 I was curious about what ppl could be doing there
[16:42] <toad_> ljn1981: you're getting a different subset to me
[16:42] <ljn1981> Didn't you insert edition 10 earlier?
[16:42] <toad_> ljn1981: strange ...
[16:42] <toad_> might indicate network fragmentation?
[16:42] <_ph00> But I deleted it after checking it out, no need to have such a bord
[16:42] <Griffon26> toad_: that was last night.. right now it's around 20% with similar transfers
[16:43] <toad_> ljn1981: can you find a more permanent place to put that?
[16:43] <toad_> ljn1981: i'd like to refer to it in a bug, i suppose i could just paste it in...
[16:43] <ljn1981> Don't know where to put it so propably ok just to put it in the report itself
[16:44] <toad_> ljn1981: what's your timezone so i can compare the two?
[16:44] <toad_> +2?
[16:45] <Griffon26> toad_: it did spontaneously restart 6 hours ago... not sure yet how frequent the restarting is. And it is probably a memory thing, because I'd been running it with higher mem settings: mucho swapping, but no restarts
[16:45] <ljn1981> I forgot if it's +1 or +2 this time of the year, it's 18:49 here
[16:45] <toad_> okay
[16:45] <toad_> so it's 1 hour ahead of me
[16:45] <ljn1981> Ok
[16:45] <toad_> ok
[16:46] <toad_> if i don't go do some shopping we won't be eating until 2 AM
[16:46] <toad_> so I'd better go
[16:46] <toad_> cya
[16:46] <toad_> Griffon26: if you have problems, file a bug on the bug tracker at https://bugs.freenetproject.org/
[16:46] <ljn1981> Sounds like a good idea, see ya
[16:46] <Griffon26> toad_: k, I just thought you might know a reason off-hand
[16:47] <toad_> nope
[16:47] <toad_> but get a stack dump (./run.sh dump) if you can
[16:47] * nextgens will have to go soon too
[16:48] <Zothar_Work> toad_: just because you need to be bugged about something else too, I'm getting these fairly regularly after a day or two of uptime on two nodes (haven't checked the third): Sep 26, 2006 16:45:22:786 (freenet.io.comm.UdpSocketManager, UdpSocketManager sender thread on port 38945, NORMAL): Dropping unclaimed from 10.20.30.40:12345, lived 119208300ms
[16:48] <Zothar_Work> :)
[16:48] * nextgens bets it's a clock screw
[16:49] <nextgens> Zothar_Work> don't you have ntpd or something like that installed ?
[16:49] <Zothar_Work> nextgens: yeah, have NTP and it's synced
[16:50] <nextgens> that's probably the root of the problem ;)
[16:51] * yopsi (n=y@) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:53] <Zothar_Work> nextgens: how could it be the root of the problem when the clock should never be off by more than a few ms when it's synced? unclaimed is a FIFO queue of a few thousand items max IIRC and these messages are things getting kicked out the end because something new needs to be inserted; the life is ~1.38 days ago, which is _MUCH_ bigger than the few ms the clock would get off under NTP sync
[16:53] * Urs_ShPo (n=gaim@) has joined #freenet
[16:53] <Zothar_Work> (perhaps you're making a joke... :)
[16:53] <nextgens> ^-^^
[16:56] <_ph00> vextr you there?
[16:59] <_ph00> vextr never mind, I got the wrong guy...
[17:00] <_ph00> bulgaria and romania joining EU
[17:00] <_ph00> who's next, russia?
[17:00] * _ph00 drops theOT
[17:00] <Zothar_Work> nah, North Korea and Iran
[17:00] <_ph00> heh
[17:01] <vextr> ok then :)
[17:01] <_ph00> china
[17:01] <Zothar_Work> (we just didn't say how far into the future... :)
[17:01] <_ph00> oh, you are there
[17:01] * Bombe (n=bombe@) has joined #freenet
[17:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o Bombe
[17:01] * Gigacrap (i=Gigacrap@) has joined #freenet
[17:01] <vextr> yeah.. you know... 'beeps' on nick.. ;)
[17:01] <_ph00> vextr the problem was a node being constantly down, which I deleted, but I wrongly remembered it ws yours
[17:02] <_ph00> I hate sound signals, I only have blink on nick
[17:02] <vextr> ahh.. I see your node stilll connected ok..yeah.
[17:02] <_ph00> my node is up 24/7
[17:02] <_ph00> but I have a small problem...
[17:02] <vextr> well.. if you're a 'celebrity' or have an infamous name like 'ph00' I can understand ;)
[17:02] <vextr> what's that?
[17:03] <_ph00> some nodes won'5t reconn3ect after they restarted
[17:03] <_ph00> probably the problem is my damn ISP nat
[17:03] <ljn1981> Hmm
[17:03] <Zothar_Work> _ph00: they're set to a normal disconnected on your end?
[17:03] <_ph00> why is ph00 an infamous name? I thought it was cool when I made that up
[17:03] <_ph00> but then again
[17:04] <_ph00> geeks don't really know what's cool
[17:04] <vextr> oh... I'm only going by the 'noise' on frost!... I guess it wasn't infamous til you made it so haha.
[17:04] <_ph00> heh
[17:04] <_ph00> ignorimg them works fine
[17:04] <_ph00> btw I switched nick on frost because ph00 is not anonymous anymore
[17:05] <_ph00> zothar, I don't really understand the question
[17:05] * KTV (n=ktv@) Quit ("AW WHO S A WITTLE FLUFFY WUFFY SNUGGLES BEAR? IZITCHOO? IZITCHOO, yesyesyes. DOES POOKIE WANT TO PLAY FETCH? AWW.")
[17:05] <Zothar_Work> _ph00: have you set ListenOnly or BurstOnly on the peers that don't connect after they restart?
[17:05] <_ph00> sometimes some nodes that should be up 24/7 show as disconnected for long periods of time
[17:05] <_ph00> no
[17:05] <Gigacrap> hi guys, just got freenet up and running ... was wondering if the freedom engine was still around? The one on the wiki page
[17:06] <_ph00> I didn't set anything, just added them and never changed anything
[17:06] <Zothar_Work> _ph00: low level logging on both ends might be needed to sort out that problem
[17:06] <vextr> right now I see 4 nodes that claimed 24/7, are disconnected on mine.
[17:06] <Zothar_Work> maybe they lied :)
[17:06] <_ph00> well, I used another way, much easier
[17:07] <Zothar_Work> maybe all of their HDs crashed at the same time... :)
[17:07] <_ph00> I delete those that stay down more than one day
[17:07] <vextr> or they're impatient,selfish types trying to 2nd guess the freenet routing system by disconnecting anyone who 'backs off' for a bit..
[17:07] <ljn1981> http://www.planetpeer.de/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
[17:07] <XTorchedX> maybe they're feds!
[17:07] <_ph00> keep adding new ones, and keep deleting those that won't stay up most of the time
[17:07] <Zothar_Work> _ph00: I'd have very few peers if I were that aggressive about peer removal
[17:07] <vextr> well.. I delete after a week of downtime..
[17:08] <_ph00> I have few
[17:08] <_ph00> I have 13 peers
[17:08] <_ph00> all up 24/7 or almost
[17:08] <ljn1981> Gigacrap: Maybe on 0.5 I'm only on 0.7 these days and it's not here but we have other indicrs
[17:08] <vextr> god.. I have over 50.. I hope some go away actually..
[17:08] <vextr> usually 20+ connected at any one time..
[17:08] <_ph00> over 50 is too much I guess... you need one hell of a connection to handle all that stuff
[17:09] <_ph00> I have 13, some ~9 connected and ~4 backed off on average
[17:09] <vextr> not with this version of freenet... It doesn't use anywhere near the bandwidth available to it..
[17:10] <Griffon26> _ph00: I think the cpu will be a problem sooner than the connection, don't you?
[17:10] <smartone66> so how do all these indexs come to be, I mean if someone wants to list something in one of these oppresive countrys, how do people find it?
[17:10] <_ph00> griffon, yes, probably
[17:10] <vextr> 20 connected.. 5 backed off .. 27 disconnected..
[17:10] <Zothar_Work> smartone66: site announces are usually done on the sites Frost board
[17:11] <Zothar_Work> they can also be added to the Index with the public insert key available
[17:11] <_ph00> I succeded in running as many as 4 nodes on one (old crappy) machine, the connection was still working at under 50% but the cpu was constantly at 100% and launching an app took several minutes
[17:11] <Zothar_Work> s/public insert key/private insert key/
[17:11] <vextr> yeah.. my cpu sitting at 40+% at the mo.. that's pretty well all freenet..
[17:12] <_ph00> then I tried running freenet (one node) and i2p at the same time: same shit. the connection could handle that, cpu couldn't
[17:12] * Gigacrap (i=Gigacrap@) Quit ()
[17:12] <smartone66> hmm, sorry for the dumb question
