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[1:51] <toad_> http://www.arachnoid.com/abouttime/
[1:53] <Elly> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights <--- Win.
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[2:02] <toad_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/calc/news/
[2:02] <toad_> Elly: burn, burn, yes we're gonna BURN!
[2:03] <toad_> how dare they prohibit arbitrary detention?!
[2:03] <toad_> Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in
[2:03] <toad_> barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the
[2:03] <toad_> advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech
[2:03] <toad_> and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the
[2:03] <toad_> highest aspiration of the common people,
[2:03] * toad_ thinks this is an interesting, if completely off topic, point
[2:04] <toad_> Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have
[2:04] <toad_> recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and
[2:04] <toad_> oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
[2:04] <Elly> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43451
[2:04] <toad_> okay, _that_ is subversive... who exactly agreed this text?!
[2:04] <Elly> ^ win
[2:05] <Elly> toad_: The UN
[2:05] <Elly> they're pretty subversive
[2:05] <toad_> Elly: the entire general assembly? unanymously?
[2:05] <toad_> including Stalin's Russia?!
[2:05] <Elly> http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
[2:05] <Elly> ratified 1948
[2:05] <Elly> adopted and proclaimed by a resolution of the General Assembly
[2:06] <toad_> is the GA able to act on a non-unanymous decision?
[2:06] <toad_> qualified majority or something?
[2:06] <toad_> sorry, s/act/speak
[2:06] <Elly> the security council could've vetoed it, I think
[2:06] <Elly> let's see
[2:06] <toad_> it doesn't act ;)
[2:06] <toad_> uhm, russia and china are on the security council...
[2:06] <Elly> I bet 1948 is when Russia had walked out
[2:08] <toad_> for how long? :)
[2:08] <Elly> the rules of the general assembly are 106 pages
[2:08] <toad_> there were plenty of other totalitarian states around at the time
[2:08] <Elly> aha
[2:08] <Elly> for them to make a declaration
[2:08] <Elly> they just need a simple majority
[2:09] <toad_> art 12 implies support for slander/libel laws
[2:09] * toad_ is not convinced about slander/libel
[2:10] <Elly> it just says you have to have protection
[2:10] <Elly> it doesn't say what such protection should be
[2:10] <Elly> but libel/slander laws are clearly a good idea
[2:12] <toad_> Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and
[2:12] <toad_> is entitled to realization, through national effort and international
[2:12] <toad_> co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of
[2:12] <toad_> each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable
[2:12] <toad_> for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
[2:12] <toad_> LOL
[2:12] <toad_> Elly: i'm uncertain re slander
[2:12] <Elly> someone prints/says something false about you that does material damage to you? should be illegal
[2:12] <Elly> toad_: I don't see why that statement is a lol
[2:13] <toad_> Technical and professional education shall be made generally available
[2:13] <toad_> and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of
[2:13] <toad_> merit.
[2:13] <toad_> there's another HAH! one
[2:14] <toad_> Elly: it's a good aspiration
[2:14] <Elly> exactly
[2:14] <Elly> which is why it's in the UN declaration of human rights
[2:15] <toad_> art 27(2) implies copyright, and maybe more general IP; i don't mind copyright, what i object to is excessive patentability, excessive copyright terms, and mandatory and crippling DRM...
[2:16] <toad_> Elly: well yeah, but it's not just what americans would see as political rights
[2:16] <toad_> it acknowledges that economic democracy is necessary for political democracy to work
[2:16] <Elly> yes, it implies copyright, but it does not imply that it should be strict
[2:19] <toad_> Elly: the idea that the state has an obligation to protect its citizens from poverty and exploitation is interesting
[2:20] <toad_> it's in direct opposition to the american libertarian ideology that while the state should protect the people from criminals, it's up to charities and the church to protect people from poverty
[2:22] <Elly> yeah, but it also means that the state may not intentionally impoversh citizens
[2:22] <toad_> right
[2:22] <toad_> Ministry of Plenty :)
[2:22] <toad_> 1984 was written in the 30s, wasn't it?
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[2:23] <toad_> some of the drafters will have read it
[2:23] <Elly> could be :P
[2:23] <toad_> and certainly such things happen in the most degenerate places...
[2:23] <toad_> and some would say in the west e.g. under reagan/thatcher
[2:24] <toad_> thanks anyway..
[2:24] <toad_> now i will go to bed
[2:24] <Elly> tch
[2:24] <Elly> it's still a good document
[2:24] <toad_> what'
[2:24] <Elly> and good night
[2:24] <toad_> what's tch?
[2:24] <Elly> a sort of annoyed expelling of breath
[2:25] <toad_> good night
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[21:26] <JoshPara1roid> toad_: re: 1984 - written in 1948! (published in 1949)
[21:26] <toad_> i thought it was earlier than that
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[21:52] <JoshPara1roid> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Title )
[21:56] <sanity> toad: i had a crazy insane idea that you will hate
[21:57] <toad_> sanity: go on...
[21:57] <sanity> toad: instead of a web interface, we create an interface in Flash
[21:57] <sanity> toad: or rather, create an API that can be accessed from Flash
[21:57] <toad_> that's bizarre. why?
[21:57] <toad_> ummm, FCP can be accessed from flash
[21:57] <sanity> because if we found a good flash person, it would look *really* cool :-)
[21:57] <toad_> yeah, like that's gonna happen
[21:58] <sanity> flash people are two a penny
[21:58] <toad_> although somebody did say he was working on a GuiModeClientInterface...
[21:58] <sanity> and freenet is a pretty cool project
[21:58] <sanity> i would like to outsource the GUI design if we can to someone that is good at GUI design
[21:58] <toad_> we can expose everything you need to FCP
[21:58] <sanity> whether it is a web interface, flash, or whatever
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[21:58] <toad_> people can implement GUIs however they like
[21:58] <sanity> ok, just so long as we don't create an in-house GUI
[21:58] <toad_> as long as FCP is sufficiently complete to do what they want, and sufficiently functional to make it easy
[21:59] <sanity> of course
[21:59] <toad_> sanity: but I think we do need to have a baseline GUI that will run on an all-OSS system, or as close to all-OSS as possible
[21:59] <toad_> well
[21:59] <toad_> s/GUI/UI
[21:59] <toad_> a baseline *U*I
[21:59] <sanity> Flash is cross platform
[21:59] <toad_> it's not open source, and it's about as cross platform as sun java last i heard
[22:00] <toad_> 0.7 should run on GCJ, meaning it should run on just about anything
[22:00] <sanity> exactly - its no worse than java :-)
[22:00] <toad_> and it will run on an all-OSS system
[22:00] <toad_> the inability to package freenet on linux is a serious impediment to adoption IMHO
[22:00] <sanity> but if it is just one GUI option among many, then the non-open source thing doesn't matter
[22:00] <toad_> right
[22:01] <sanity> don't under-estimate the value of a "flashy" (pun fully intended) UI
[22:01] <toad_> it MUST be possible, in fact it must be easy, for third parties to make UIs
[22:01] <toad_> I am 100% in agreement on that
[22:01] <sanity> i would go one further, a third party (ie. not you) should be the one to build our UI(s)
[22:02] <toad_> I strongly disagree with that, if you then say "and we will bundle this platform-specific-and-dependant-on-closed-source code"
[22:02] <toad_> there must be a standards compliant web interface that can be used by a reasonably computer literate moron :)
[22:03] <toad_> sanity: what's your current view on bundling?
[22:03] <sanity> i think bundling a flash interface with the Windows version of Freenet would be ok
[22:03] <toad_> sanity: I think we should bundle a lot more than we do
[22:03] <sanity> toad: my current view on bundling is that we should do whatever we can to make Freenet easier to use
[22:04] <toad_> sanity: but I think if you just pull freenet from SVN, you should be able to build something usable, even if you are RMS
[22:04] <sanity> right now, i don't think Freenet will build if you just pull it from SVN
[22:04] <sanity> at least, it didn't last time i tried
[22:04] <toad_> sanity: agreed. we should probably bundle frost and FIW
[22:04] <sanity> some of the locations of jars were hardwired to absolute paths
[22:04] <sanity> which is not good
[22:04] <toad_> sanity: it can be made to build :)
[22:05] <toad_> sanity: red herring
[22:05] <sanity> it shouldn't have to be made to build - there is no reason it shouldn't build immediately
[22:05] <sanity> ...as it did before
[22:05] <sanity> and as dijjer does
[22:05] <toad_> what do i need to change exactly?
[22:05] <toad_> are we going to make the build.xml pull the prerequisites into the tree?
[22:05] <sanity> last time i looked the most obvious problem was that the location of freenet-ext.jar was hardwired in the project
[22:06] <toad_> anyway, returning to the original topic: IMNSHO we need a reasonably complete web interface
[22:06] <sanity> it should build both with build.xml, but also with Eclipse's built-in compiler
[22:06] <toad_> sanity: right, so i need to pull it into lib/, exclude it, and so on
[22:06] <sanity> something like that
[22:06] <toad_> i have no idea how to make it work straight off without checking freenet-ext.jar into SVN...
[22:07] <sanity> so check freenet-ext.jar into SVN
[22:07] <sanity> thats not a big deal
[22:07] <toad_> ugh
[22:07] <toad_> maybe
[22:07] <sanity> its far less ugly than the current situation
[22:07] <sanity> particuarly since freenet-ext.jar doesn't change very often
[22:07] <toad_> well the alternative is that you have to run ant once
[22:07] <toad_> and then it works in eclipse
[22:08] <toad_> sanity: re interfaces
[22:08] <sanity> we should make this as easy for devs as possible, and if that means cheching the jar into SVN, then that is more than worth it
[22:08] <toad_> yeah ok
[22:08] * toad_ adds to todo list
[22:08] <Elly> Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished
[22:08] <Elly> from the false and profane writings on which all other
[22:08] <Elly> faiths are based.
[22:08] <Elly> [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911]
[22:09] <Elly> oops, stupid newlines
[22:09] <toad_> sanity: re interfaces... what precisely are you proposing?
[22:09] <sanity> toad: same as you - expose all UI functionality through FCP
[22:09] <toad_> right
[22:09] <Elly> I propose sanity of interfaces.
[22:09] <toad_> that's agreed
[22:09] <toad_> if you can find a flash guy to code a flash interface, then that's nice
[22:10] <toad_> but we still need fproxy imho
[22:10] <toad_> certainly the more paranoid users wouldn't touch flash with a bargepole
[22:10] <sanity> fproxy should be *far* simpler this time around - in pre-0.7 it had grown to epic proportions
[22:10] <toad_> well
[22:10] <toad_> the actual fproxy .java was a monster, that i accept
[22:10] <toad_> there was an inadequate separation of functionality...
[22:11] <toad_> all these problems are solved by putting all the important stuff into FCP
[22:11] <Elly> and of thighs
[22:12] <toad_> but you're not saying don't code fproxy.. just that fproxy should be simple.. right?
[22:12] <toad_> ok, /me has dinner
[22:12] <toad_> bbl
[22:15] <sanity> yes
[22:22] <JoshPara1roid> re: flash: please don't do it
[22:25] <JoshPara1roid> whenever i have to deal with a flash interface, a small part of my heart is cut out
[22:26] <Elly> don't do flash
[22:26] <Elly> or I'll kill you
[22:27] <JoshPara1roid> if we do, we will end up with something approaching the interface of kai's power goo
[22:29] <JoshPara1roid> look: http://www.freephotoshop.com/html/metatools.html
[22:29] <JoshPara1roid> that is not what i want to see freenet look like
[22:32] <JoshPara1roid> i wouldn't mind an ajax interface, if it's done with caution and down-grades nicely in a non-compliant browser
[22:32] <Elly> why AJAX?
[22:32] <Elly> I guess that'd work
[22:32] <Elly> but why?
[22:33] <JoshPara1roid> well, it's quite nice for updating information client side
[22:33] <JoshPara1roid> oh wait
[22:33] <rah> toad_: I should be returning to Bristol early next year
[22:33] <JoshPara1roid> i guess that's not a problem if you're interfacing with a program that's running locally
[22:33] <rah> toad_: fancy some beers? :)
[22:34] <Elly> JoshPara1roid: well, we want to keep it separate still
[22:35] <JoshPara1roid> yes
[22:59] <sandos> JoshPara1roid: non-AJAX stuff will stuff flicker and crap even if its locally =)
[22:59] <sandos> s/stuff/still/
[23:00] <sandos> I like AJAX, me dont like flash
[23:00] <sandos> flash is also hopefully getting replaced by more open alternatives such as javascript+svg or something
[23:01] <sandos> (even though javascript and actionscript is pretty much the same thing? if not exactly the same thing=)
[23:09] <nextgens> sanity> it actualy is worst than java :)
[23:09] <nextgens> sanity> it can't run on powerpcs nor x64 ;)
[23:09] <nextgens> whereas java can
[23:10] <nextgens> (speaking about flash)
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