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[1:39] <TheSeeker> toad: successfully retrieved that key. Nothing I hadn't already heard about on the insecure interweb ...
[1:44] <TheSeeker> person doing the site should have inserted teh scripts as well, as those seem like a more likely target for forced-removal from the internet than just the page...
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[8:36] <ProtoX29A> hi
[8:55] <nextgens> hi
[8:56] <nextgens> http://freshmeat.net/releases/213825/
[8:56] <nextgens> it sounds promissing :
[8:56] <nextgens> About: The aim of Ant SVK Task is to create fully functional support for the SVK SCM tool within Ant build files
[8:58] * ProtoX29A ain't know nothing about building no ant
[9:01] <nextgens> you don't have to :)
[9:02] <ProtoX29A> haven't tried the thing yet, is there a difference to mute?
[9:06] <sandos> mute?
[9:06] <sandos> the anon p2p thingy?
[9:06] <sandos> ant is for building programs
[9:07] <nextgens> he was speaking about freenet imho :)
[9:07] <ProtoX29A> oh
[9:07] <ProtoX29A> maybe another ant
[9:07] <sandos> ants p2p is something else entirely :)
[9:07] <ProtoX29A> oh ok
[9:08] * ProtoX29A is very sorry
[9:08] <nextgens> so do mute :
[9:08] <nextgens> :
[9:08] <nextgens> mute is using non-direct connections ...
[9:09] <nextgens> however the file you are requesting is stored on the inserting node as far as I understand
[9:09] <nextgens> so, it has to be online for you to be able to fetch it
[9:09] <ProtoX29A> its just a shared folder like edonkey
[9:09] <nextgens> whereas with freenet, when you insert stuffs,
[9:10] <nextgens> they are stored on other's node datastores
[9:10] <ProtoX29A> with freenet you might be lucky that enough people are online :)
[9:10] <nextgens> so people are still able to get them even if you disconnect
[9:10] <ProtoX29A> when enough people who store your data are online
[9:10] <nextgens> are^should ;)
[9:11] <nextgens> yes, but as far as FEC goes, you do insert something like 150% of your file
[9:11] <nextgens> on "many" different datastores
[9:11] <ProtoX29A> i don't believe much in the freenet way, but it has more content than gnunet :)
[9:11] <nextgens> as keys are distributed among the keyspace
[9:12] <nextgens> so, you know about the theory, don't you ?
[9:12] <nextgens> :)
[9:12] <ProtoX29A> i cant get as much information about freenet, i would like
[9:12] <ProtoX29A> besides reading the source
[9:13] <ProtoX29A> especialy the protocol between 2 nodes
[9:14] <nextgens> which version of freenet are you interrested in ?
[9:14] <nextgens> :)
[9:14] <TheSeeker> 0.7 alpha 4tw
[9:15] <TheSeeker> splitfiles almost work!
[9:15] <ProtoX29A> nextgens: hmm like 'the best'? :)
[9:16] <nextgens> I'm asking because .7 is a rewrite from scratch
[9:16] <ProtoX29A> i wounder whether it would be possible to create a client which is capable of different protocols an allows sharing between networks
[9:16] <nextgens> no :)
[9:16] <nextgens> at least not with freenet
[9:16] <ProtoX29A> because its really anonymous?
[9:17] <nextgens> the fact that it is anonymous doesn't prevent 3rdparty software
[9:18] <nextgens> but with freenet, all the routing is done in the node (decentralized routing)
[9:18] <ProtoX29A> but i cant convert a freenet-hash to a gnunet-hash or vice versa without knowing it
[9:18] <nextgens> and with such a P2P architecture, building a multi-network client will be meaningless imho
[9:18] <nextgens> as mute/freenet/gnunet/...tor/whatever are using different algorithms
[9:19] <nextgens> no, you can't
[9:19] <ProtoX29A> when all i want is to share content and don't care much about connections there should be a way
[9:19] <nextgens> yes,
[9:20] <nextgens> fetching the "whole" file and re-hashing it fully
[9:20] <nextgens> but as you might know, freenet isn't searchable atm
[9:20] <ProtoX29A> i think the clever part with gnunet is, that it doesn't ask for a defined algorithm
[9:20] <nextgens> freenet's content even
[9:20] <ProtoX29A> for routing
[9:21] <ProtoX29A> so it would be allowed to give it to other networks
[9:22] <nextgens> but useless as you will have to know the freenet's key pointing to it
[9:23] <nextgens> and you can't guess/calculate it if you don't own the content
[9:24] <ProtoX29A> thats why i would like, lower levels of anonymity to known peers, which would make it easier to do clever routing
[9:25] <nextgens> that's incompatible with our project's goal, sorry :)
[9:25] <ProtoX29A> yes and no
[9:25] <nextgens> however, the "darknet" (.7) will be more or less like that
[9:25] <nextgens> you will have 'trusted' links
[9:26] <nextgens> but it won't//shouldn't lower your average anonymity level
[9:27] <nextgens> it will just allow an offender to DoS/havervest one of your links
[9:27] <nextgens> but you will be able to drop his link ...
[9:27] <nextgens> so it's not really an issue
[9:28] <nextgens> [10:25] < ProtoX29A> | yes and no ?
[9:28] <nextgens> what do you mean ?
[9:28] <ProtoX29A> you could get unencrypted keyword-searches from a friend, and decide to forward it encrypted
[9:29] <nextgens> the thing is that with freenet, you don't even trust your friends :)
[9:30] <nextgens> and even less people in between you and your friends
[9:30] <ProtoX29A> but when i have some anti-chinese-propaganda which is no problem in europe, but is in china
[9:30] <ProtoX29A> so i can forward it unencrypted within europe, but encrypt it when it goes to china
[9:31] <nextgens> well, we might not have the same definition of anonymity
[9:31] <nextgens> :)
[9:32] <nextgens> if chineese peoples were knowing and trusting enough someone within europe, what's the purpose of using freenet ?
[9:32] <ProtoX29A> this maybe, i think more in godfather-way of it. I do you a favor, and you do me a favor in return, but we do not talk avbout it
[9:32] <TheSeeker> I wonder how large the 0.7 darknet will get? and how many "holes" will be punched in it to see the light of the open 0.7 network?
[9:32] <nextgens> an ssh account would have done the trick ;)
[9:33] <ProtoX29A> they would not need to trust some in europe
[9:33] <nextgens> [10:30] < ProtoX29A> | so i can forward it unencrypted within europe, but encrypt it when it goes to china
[9:34] <nextgens> how will you prevent the chineese government to spoof an european id to catch some dissidents so ?
[9:34] <ProtoX29A> so there is a high anonymity-network in the world, but a small low-anonymity anti-chinese-network in germany
[9:34] <nextgens> to stick on your example
[9:35] <nextgens> please answer ^-^
[9:35] <ProtoX29A> its not just "hey i am from europe trust me"
[9:35] <ProtoX29A> it's just to make it easier to share thing, where they are not in danger
[9:36] <nextgens> just don't use freenet so :)
[9:36] <nextgens> a shared ftp will perform finer :)
[9:36] <nextgens> a shared ftp will perform better :)
[9:37] <nextgens> and sftp links to china
[9:37] <ProtoX29A> so you would need a trusted peer in europe
[9:37] <nextgens> ProtoX29A> you should read project's goals imho
[9:37] <nextgens> 1) we want to provide anonymity :
[9:37] <nextgens> 1.1) for the sender
[9:38] <nextgens> 1.2) for the recipient
[9:38] <nextgens> 2) it's using a DHT
[9:38] <ProtoX29A> a dht?
[9:38] <nextgens> (to prevent content to be banned)
[9:38] <TheSeeker> distributed hash tree
[9:38] <nextgens> offline caching
[9:38] <TheSeeker> I think
[9:39] <nextgens> 3) content in node's datastore (and on the network) is evolving according to the need :
[9:39] <TheSeeker> (read, demand)
[9:39] <nextgens> spamming would be useless as people aren't asking for this content
[9:40] <nextgens> but usefull (requested content) will be cached almost everywhere ; so that, it will be even harder to ban
[9:40] <TheSeeker> spam drips off the edges of the network into the void... sounds messy.
[9:40] <nextgens> well, maybe not void, but it won't cache it
[9:41] <TheSeeker> heh
[9:41] <nextgens> so it will be replaced by new content when needed
[9:41] <ProtoX29A> i would only like to free some of the ideas of the implementation, so all efforts to do a darknet would have synergetic effects
[9:41] <TheSeeker> my store is only 6 GB :/ stuff falls out of it all day I'm sure.
[9:42] <TheSeeker> ProtoX29A: careful, you're starting to sound like a middle manager.
[9:42] <nextgens> not a problem as you aren't the only DS ;)
[9:42] <nextgens> raah
[9:42] <TheSeeker> nextgens: nah, but I push 3 GB of traffic per day...
[9:43] <ProtoX29A> i don't think it is good to have some good projects, which all aren't comptible to each other
[9:43] <nextgens> I'm missing the latest part of ProtoX29A sentences as my term. is missconfigured
[9:43] <nextgens> TheSeeker> so it will, definitely
[9:44] <nextgens> well, why are they different project if they do have the same goal ?
[9:44] <ProtoX29A> perhaps some people like java, and some like c++? :)
[9:44] <nextgens> ProtoX29A> your project (aggregating distributed P2P networks) seems stupid to me :)
[9:45] <ProtoX29A> i want f2f networks
[9:45] <TheSeeker> I kinda like Shareaza... ability to connect to multiple networks is nice... the huge size of the library file because it has to store several different hashes for every file is not so wonderful though...
[9:45] <TheSeeker> f2f?
[9:46] <TheSeeker> flan to flan?
[9:46] <ProtoX29A> friend-to-friend, darknets
[9:46] <TheSeeker> well, 0.7 will have a darknet.
[9:46] <TheSeeker> it will also have an open net though.
[9:47] <nextgens> wich won't work imho :)
[9:47] <TheSeeker> and users can run a darknet and an open net node on their machine and link the two so that darknet users can see the outside world...
[9:47] <nextgens> but at least it won't break the darknet each time the project is slashdoted ;)
[9:47] * TheSeeker has 4 connections on the darknet currently :D
[9:48] <ProtoX29A> nextgens: what will not work? and why?
[9:48] <nextgens> even, I think to is going to allow an open node to talk to darknet :
[9:48] <TheSeeker> uploading at ~2K/s instead of ~200B/s on inserts now, getting better ;)
[9:48] <nextgens> darkent is just an opennet with permanent connections ;)
[9:48] <nextgens> ProtoX29A> read the -tech mailling list 6 month ago ;)
[9:49] <TheSeeker> slightly more "trusted" connections too usually.
[9:49] <nextgens> "trusted" as they will be fewer
[9:49] <TheSeeker> unless people are dumb enough to use publicly posted darknet lists...
[9:49] <TheSeeker> I dunno, I have a lot of geek friends.
[9:50] <nextgens> why not ? :)
[9:50] <nextgens> they probably will with .8 ;)
[9:50] <nextgens> for mixnet purposes
[9:50] <ProtoX29A> yes, one would need to have geek friends or it wouldn't work
[9:50] <nextgens> or at least, the net. topology will be locally published
[9:50] <TheSeeker> I'll bet you that most of the "publicly available" lists will be full of govt types :P
[9:51] <TheSeeker> oh? I thought you ONLY knew who you were connected to and not who anyone else was...
[9:51] <ProtoX29A> and goverment people are not the kind of 'trusted peers' i would like
[9:51] <nextgens> TheSeeker> for now yes ...
[9:51] <TheSeeker> in a darknet you lose a lot of anonymity at 1 hop, but you trust all the people at 1 hop... right...? :P
[9:51] <nextgens> TheSeeker> but to protect inserts with a mixnet, we^toad will have to publish a part of the network topology
[9:52] <nextgens> you don't lose that much anonymity
[9:52] <TheSeeker> premix routing?
[9:52] <nextgens> you do if you advertise your links ;)
[9:52] <nextgens> yes
[9:53] * TheSeeker watches premix go over his head, almost too far to see.
[9:53] <ProtoX29A> what is a premix?
[9:53] <nextgens> the concept is quite simple :
[9:53] <nextgens> you do chose a node randomly, route a cyphered message to it...
[9:54] <nextgens> but you do chose the path and each hop is decrypting a part of the message
[9:54] <nextgens> so if any of the nodes on the path aren't decrypting the content (MiM attack for example),
[9:54] <nextgens> the content won't verify at the end
[9:55] <nextgens> and moreover, at each hop,
[9:55] <ProtoX29A> i don't really want random nodes
[9:55] <ProtoX29A> i don't want everyone to know, that i use a filesharing network
[9:55] <TheSeeker> so... you recursively encode the message using the pubkey og the nodes in reverse order of the hops the message will take?
[9:55] <nextgens> if the node is "serious enough", it won't advertise it's previous hop
[9:56] <nextgens> yes
[9:56] <nextgens> but not on each hop, that's the trick ;)
[9:56] <ProtoX29A> how do you know, it is serious enough?
[9:56] <nextgens> by serious enough, I mean non offensive node
[9:56] <nextgens> you just don't ant can't know ...
[9:56] <TheSeeker> random nodes are OK in this sense because all they know is that they sent a packet, but not what was in the packet...
[9:57] <nextgens> but as they more than one hop, if only one hop is "serious", anonymity is granted
[9:57] <nextgens> ^ensured
[9:57] <TheSeeker> sounds more CPU intensive than freenet is currently...
[9:57] <nextgens> that's not the main concern :
[9:58] <nextgens> tor is working like that
[9:58] <nextgens> but latency is :/
[9:58] <nextgens> and advertisement of the network topology or at least a part of it
[9:59] <ProtoX29A> in germany there was just a verdict, that the provider of a discussion forum is responsible for its content
[9:59] <nextgens> we heard about that
[9:59] <ProtoX29A> so when i run a freenet node, i could be made responsible for child porn in future
[10:00] <nextgens> no
[10:00] <TheSeeker> not if you have no reasonable means of knowing what you're providing.
[10:00] <nextgens> as you honestly don't and can't know what is stored in your datastore
[10:01] <nextgens> and you are only providing cryphered chunks of 32kb of data
[10:01] * nextgens have to go
[10:01] <nextgens> bbl
[10:01] * nextgens has to go
[10:01] <ProtoX29A> i know it is stupid to believe that it would be possible to check all data, but german courts do a lot of stupid thinking
[10:02] <TheSeeker> I'm starting to like the 32k chunks thing in 0.7 I didn't think I'd like it before, but the unified datastore is working fairly well with the fixed key size.
[10:02] <nextgens> it's simply not
[10:02] <ProtoX29A> strong cryptography could be illegal
[10:02] <nextgens> "technicaly"
[10:02] <nextgens> as far as our current knowledge in crypto. things is at least
[10:02] <ProtoX29A> i know that
[10:03] <TheSeeker> yes, make strong crypto illegal so that all bank transactions must be done without any protection of data... muahaha
[10:03] <ProtoX29A> so strong crypto will be illegal for private people
[10:04] <nextgens> TheSeeker> they are already vulnerable :)
[10:04] <nextgens> but that's an other debate
[10:04] <TheSeeker> yeah, but mostly to the stupidity of their users who fall for phishing attempts.
[10:04] <ProtoX29A> stupid people should be vulnerable
[10:04] <nextgens> that's the obvious way ... but even technically speaking
[10:05] <TheSeeker> I try not to think about it :)
[10:05] <nextgens> TheSeeker> google to find out what credit cards are based on ;)
[10:05] <TheSeeker> other people's debt? :P
[10:06] <ProtoX29A> you only would need a automatic teller which reads someones bank card and his pin
[10:06] <ProtoX29A> just put it somewhere and let people give you their data
[10:06] <TheSeeker> hmm, feeling a bit woozy... should sleep much.
[10:06] <nextgens> banks preffers ingoring this potential problem rather than updating every paying terminal in every shop
[10:07] <nextgens> and moreover, it's quite useless for them as fraud is quite inexistant and they are inssured against that
[10:07] <nextgens> is inssured english ?
[10:07] <TheSeeker> I'm too tired to remember how things may or may not be spelled... I could never spell right in the first place.
[10:08] <ProtoX29A> nextgens: it lookes nice, you may use that word
[10:09] <ProtoX29A> i have another argument for having a network with multiple protocols between different pairs of nodes
[10:10] <ProtoX29A> when there is only one protocol allowed, then the whole network would have one central point
[10:40] * nextgens (n=nextgens@cl-150.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) Quit ("Lost terminal")
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[12:48] <toad_> [09:14] <TheSeeker> splitfiles almost work!
[12:48] <toad_> splitfiles DO work
[12:48] <toad_> but there are still some bugs
[12:53] <toad_> [10:02] <TheSeeker> yes, make strong crypto illegal so that all bank transactions must be done without any protection of data... muahaha
[12:53] <toad_> lol
[12:55] <toad_> ProtoX29A: all these networks are decentralized, aren't they?
[12:56] * greycat (i=rfc1413@wooledge.org) has joined #freenet
[12:57] <toad_> greycat: hi
[12:57] <greycat> hi
[13:03] <ProtoX29A> but the development is not
[13:04] <toad_> ProtoX29A: right
[13:04] <toad_> ProtoX29A: it's entirely possible to build multi-network clients
[13:04] <toad_> ProtoX29A: deeper integration is an interesting problem
[13:05] <toad_> it rather requires common hashing/data formats
[13:05] <toad_> i know some other P2Ps use keys very similar to those of freenet
[13:05] <toad_> but you will always get problems, since it's intimately tied to precise goals (e.g. plausible deniability), and technical issues (e.g. block size)
[13:06] <toad_> freenet 0.7 has a block size of 32kB, but freenet 0.5 has anything from 1kB to 1MB in powers of two
[13:06] <toad_> realistically you're going to have to provide databases of hash mappings
[13:06] <toad_> which is an interesting challenge, but outside the scope of current freenet development
[13:07] <ProtoX29A> yes, but if i have something like hash mappings, it would be easier not to uses hashes in the first way, WHEN they are not necessary
[13:07] <toad_> sorry, what do you mean?
[13:08] <toad_> we could provide an overall hash on splitfiles, that might help with other-network integration and would serve as a useful integrity check...
[13:08] <ProtoX29A> when i pass a query to someone whom i trust, i don't have to hash it, and can let him hash it
[13:08] <toad_> SHA-1 or SHA-256?
[13:08] <toad_> ProtoX29A: depends what you're requesting
[13:08] <toad_> if you want "the file called diebold-democracy-carnival.zip", you don't need hashes
[13:08] <toad_> or "any and all files containing 'mp3'"
[13:09] <toad_> if you want to multi-source a download of a very specific file, you need to fetch by document hash
[13:09] <ProtoX29A> yes, multi-source download with different block sizes and protocols would be difficult :)
[13:09] <toad_> loose searching and fetching a content-hash-keyed file are two different problems
[13:10] <toad_> ProtoX29A: entirely possible with hash conversion databases IMHO
[13:10] <toad_> ProtoX29A: and quite powerful
[13:11] <toad_> ProtoX29A: which is more common: MD5, SHA-1, or SHA-256? which will be more common in future?
[13:11] <ProtoX29A> so i would lookup hash 0815 of gnunet is made of block FF042A and 2342CD of freent?
[13:12] <toad_> ProtoX29A: freenet doesn't really solve the loose-searching problem at all; there are ways to solve this, but we haven't really put any effort into it, and the near term goal for searching is very primitive (inserting indexes)
[13:12] <ProtoX29A> i can't tell which hashing will be the best in future
[13:12] <toad_> ProtoX29A: but it _does_ solve the fetch-by-hash problem, including subdivision via splitfiles
[13:12] <toad_> right, some people will do trees and all sorts...
[13:12] <toad_> but for a unified file-only hash for lookup services, a simple SHA-256 of the entire file should suffice, right?
[13:12] <toad_> possibly combined with file length?
[13:14] <ProtoX29A> i can't tell
[13:15] <toad_> ProtoX29A: as I see it, for multi-sourcing, what you want is for networks to provide the function "fetch byte range R of the file with length L and hash H"
[13:16] <toad_> ProtoX29A: for searching, it's easy, you just provide L and H for each file, and a list of known network specific keys on all the various networks (which must support URIs)
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[13:16] <ProtoX29A> yes, without needing to download the whole thing to check whether it is correct
[13:17] <toad_> ProtoX29A: well, somebody has to check it... I don't know exactly how the hash validation service would work, but there needs to be some sort of web of trust probably
[13:17] <toad_> with verification from time to time...
[13:17] <ProtoX29A> yes
[13:18] <toad_> i dunno, it may be that the only way to do this really is to have a standard format for data
[13:18] <toad_> but that would be very difficult
[13:19] <ProtoX29A> you can never tell, if crypto X will be sane to use tomorrow
[13:19] * |Fez| (n=jalla@81.166.170.72) Quit (Client Quit)
[13:19] <toad_> indeed... so you need some means to convert old hashes and URIs, any-to-any
[13:21] <ProtoX29A> so each node should collect and share data about corresponding hashes of different formats, so they can do conversion in some cases
[13:21] <toad_> right
[13:21] <toad_> here's a trivial example
[13:22] <toad_> if freenet splitfiles include a few hashes of the data, which are enforced when you fetch the full splitfile, then you can check the hash against the headers
[13:22] <toad_> so you can have a fetch-by-hash service very easily, because it's easy to validate it
[13:23] <toad_> that is, assuming the splitfile is valid... well, if you multi-source a download, and the download fails to produce the original file, you just download the whole file from each involved network, and see who lied
[13:24] <ProtoX29A> and i would give bad credit to the lyer
[13:25] <toad_> right
[13:25] <toad_> yeah, i'm sure you could do it, some sort of web of trust would help a lot
[13:25] <toad_> i'm happy to help in relation to freenet, but somebody else will have to implement it :)
[13:26] <toad_> i will code a checksum hash into the splitfiles, and maybe a per-segment hash as well
[13:26] <ProtoX29A> so sharing between different networks would be more expensive in average but profitable at times
[13:27] <toad_> no, i think it would be profitable on average
[13:27] <toad_> because you can heal files from one network to the others
[13:28] <toad_> you may even be able to do this transparently, later on.... "inverse passive requests" on freenet (0.8, probably post 1.0) might allow automatic fetch from known suppliers of a given block
[13:28] <ProtoX29A> when you are the first to do this, it is profitable, but when there are already files in your network it would be cheaper to get them from 'your' network
[13:28] <toad_> ProtoX29A: well, some networks are faster than others
[13:28] <toad_> and some will have different content preoccupations
[13:30] <ProtoX29A> a hybrid between emule and freenet would be faster than freenet, and still have deniabilty
[13:30] <ProtoX29A> yes
[13:32] <toad_> well, it'd have deniability in parts
[13:32] <toad_> we can't fire off emule queries on every request
[13:33] <ProtoX29A> then no traffic would go over the freenet
[13:34] <toad_> ProtoX29A: well, you can run it on the client level... or you can have specific files which you know about, and announce this to freenet; freenet will then ask you when it can't find the file on freenet itself (inverse passive requests)
[13:35] <toad_> short term, client level integration is most sensible
[13:35] <toad_> as long as it includes cross-network healing
[13:36] <ProtoX29A> is there a credit system in freenet which awards smart clients?
[13:37] <toad_> not as such, but there is node-to-node quid pro quo
[13:38] <toad_> in NGR, we don't route to nodes which don't work well, and we are more likely to drop them
[13:38] <toad_> if nodes don't get many queries, if they don't serve queries reasonably well, they tend to not only lose anonymity but also lose connections
[13:38] <toad_> we haven't finished working out what to do with 0.7
[13:39] <ProtoX29A> ok, perhaps i should read more about the current discussion
[13:42] <toad_> ProtoX29A: certainly it's an important principle that we try to fetch stuff from the home network first
[13:42] <toad_> ProtoX29A: inverse passive requests would only kick in after a DNF, for example
[13:43] <toad_> but they are hypothetical; we haven't worked out all the security issues, and they probably won't be in 0.8, certainly not in 0.7
[13:44] <toad_> 0.8 will have a bunch of new functions - passive requests (tell me when file X is available), pseudo-broadcast streams, probably 1:1 streams
[13:44] <toad_> 0.7 will just be faster and safer
[13:45] <ProtoX29A> but it is good to know that there are possibilities, in future
[13:45] <ProtoX29A> :)
[13:45] <toad_> :)
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[14:39] <toad_> anyone here want to join the freenet 0.7 pre-alpha test? it's quite promising today...
[14:39] <toad_> if so, please /join #freenet-alphatest
[14:42] * Carradine (i=Carradin@c193-150-238-95.cm-upc.chello.se) has joined #freenet
[14:43] <toad_> hi Carradine
[14:43] <Carradine> Hello toad_
[14:44] <toad_> having problems with freenet? or want to join the 0.7 alpha test?
[14:44] <Carradine> Problems, i'm currently thinking on how to form my question. :)
[14:44] <toad_> RNFs, DNFs, node doesn't start, it's just too damn slow, what?
[14:45] <sbc> all of the above? :)
[14:45] <toad_> :)
[14:45] <Carradine> I just want to know how to become a permanent node, i have lots of bandwith (8Mbits up&down).
[14:45] <toad_> Carradine: nice
[14:45] <toad_> Carradine: any node is permanent
[14:45] <toad_> as long as you run it permanently
[14:45] <Carradine> According to freenethelp.org there is a setting called "transient" but i can't find it, maybe the information is outdated?
[14:46] <toad_> Carradine: what are you running it on? you may need a lot of CPU and RAM for a node on 8M symmetric
[14:46] <toad_> Carradine: ah, that's outdated
[14:46] <toad_> transient no longer exists
[14:46] <Carradine> Normal desktop running Windows XP, 2.53 Ghz and 1500GB RAM
[14:46] <greycat> that's a lot of RAM.
[14:47] <Carradine> Well, you can't have too much RAM, right?
[14:47] <greycat> I'm guessing you meant 1500MB
[14:47] <toad_> just install the node, edit the INI file so it uses 1GB of RAM, set maximumThreads=200, storeSize=6T, and run it :)
[14:47] <Carradine> Oh! Sorry greycat, haha.
[14:47] * toad_ has 1500MB of RAM :)
[14:47] <ProtoX29A> at some level too much ram could cause black holes :)
[14:47] <Carradine> Yes of course i meant MB.
[14:48] <Carradine> ProtoX29A, so i've heard.
[14:48] <Carradine> toad_: storeSize=6T = ??
[14:48] <toad_> Carradine: :)
[14:48] <toad_> Carradine: that's a joke... you have an 8M symmetric connection so you must have a lot of disk space :)
[14:49] <toad_> it takes SI multipliers, in bytes
[14:49] <toad_> so 6T would be 6 terabytes
[14:49] <toad_> = 6144 GB
[14:49] <toad_> = a lot of bytes
[14:49] <Carradine> That's what i thought it meant.
[14:49] <toad_> (which would take up a whole load of memory just to index)
[14:49] <Carradine> I only got 120GB but i can spare a couple.
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[14:50] <toad_> :)
[14:50] <Carradine> I do find this project very interesting.
[14:50] <toad_> i need more folks on the 0.7 pre-alpha-test... #freenet-alphatest
[14:50] <ProtoX29A> sorry got to go now
[14:52] <toad_> at the moment i have 3 nodes of my own plus tubbie's clan
[14:52] <toad_> and that's about it
[14:52] <Carradine> toad_: What about when i restart Freenet, i was forced to restart earlier today and when i did my connection to Freenet got a little bad, is that normal?
[14:53] <toad_> Carradine: it'll take a while to recover yeah
[14:53] <toad_> shouldn't take _that_ long though
[14:53] <Carradine> Ok.
[14:54] <Carradine> Right now i got 109% load for some reason. :)
[14:54] <toad_> :)
[14:54] <toad_> load goes from 0% to infinity % :)
[14:55] <Carradine> So i've discovered, hehe.
[14:55] <Carradine> Where can i get support on the Frost client?
[14:55] <toad_> i don't know, suggest you ask here
[14:57] <Carradine> Ok, well i was trying it out and sent a message to the test board but the messages doesn't seem to be sent.
[14:58] <Carradine> And it says "0 uploading" and "0 downloading" but when i try to quit it tells me it still has messages uploding.
[14:58] <toad_> strange
[14:58] <toad_> you on the latest version?
[14:58] <toad_> oh
[14:58] <toad_> 0 _files_
[14:59] <toad_> there's also messages
[14:59] <toad_> which are after that
[14:59] <toad_> hence
[14:59] <Carradine> I think so yes. Version 20-oct 2005
[14:59] <toad_> TOFUP: 1B / 1T TOFDO: 4B / 8T
[14:59] <toad_> i.e. one text being uploaded, and one board index
[14:59] <toad_> 8 texts being downloaded, and 4 board indexes being downloaded
[15:00] <Carradine> Ah
[15:00] <Carradine> I got TOFUP: 1B / 1T
[15:00] <Carradine> So that's what's giving me the upload message when exiting.
[15:09] <Carradine> Btw. i got tons of error messages in my log, any help with those?
[15:10] <Carradine> What does "Consecutive same winner: etc. " mean?
[15:11] <toad_> means your node is severely overloaded on CPU, usually
[15:13] <Carradine> Aha, no way to minimize the CPU-usage?
[15:17] <toad_> there are a few options...
[15:28] <Carradine> Mmm?
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[18:33] <zeboul> hello
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[23:14] <Carradine> Which tool is recommended when inserting a page to Freenet?
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[23:19] <Carradine> Also, any complete guide to which HTML is supported and preferred - any information about coding&design issues when making a freesite would also be appreciated.
[23:25] <sleon> Carradine: better ask on frost, and then there are enough freesites on this issue :D
[23:25] * sleon has never done any freesite though
[23:28] <Carradine> Yes i know there are some freesites on this issue, thing is even after 25+ hours i can't reach most of them. Also, there is tons of different applications to use to inser a freesite. And lastly - no info afaik about any coding&design issues.
[23:33] <Carradine> Still searching though.
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[23:52] <Carradine> One more thing, how big is the need for localized help docs?
Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
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