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[14:11] <toad_> Subject: [freenet-dev] Searching support in 0.7.0?
[14:11] <toad_> i'd like some idea of the popularity of this idea before i try to convince ian that it's vital that it go in in 0.7.0
[14:11] <toad_> i've posted to devl, tech, and frost
[14:12] <toad_> any comments would be very welcome
[14:12] <toad_> bbiab
[14:12] <smains> searching...
[14:13] <toad_> smains: :)
[14:13] <smains> you mean like google
[14:13] <toad_> using published indexes
[14:13] <toad_> four or five people run spiders which publish indexes
[14:13] <toad_> which are either monolithic (single file, download every time it is updated)
[14:13] <toad_> or split (by the word prefix e.g. SSK@blah,blah/index-<date>-fr)
[14:14] <toad_> with a configurable number of characters chopped off
[14:14] <toad_> so first it's monolithic, then it's one character (f), then it's two (fr), then it's three (fre) etc
[14:14] <smains> hmm ok
[14:14] <toad_> problem is it'd take a week to implement, *after* we have the rest of the client stuff working
[14:15] <smains> but why not just use the public indexes ?
[14:15] <toad_> hmmm?
[14:15] <toad_> scale problems, UI problems and legal/moral/PR problems
[14:16] <smains> but with public indexes you would not be able to "hide" content in freenet
[14:16] <toad_> scale problems - 400 sites is a bit excessive for one site. UI problems - people expect searching. legal/moral/PR problems - people expect search engines to return child porn when you ask for it. especially on p2p.
[14:16] <toad_> smains: huh?
[14:16] <toad_> smains: it'd be generated by a spider
[14:17] <toad_> smains: we're not talking a fully distributed index here, just a hack really
[14:17] <smains> ok
[14:17] <smains> it would still be possible to not index something ?
[14:18] <toad_> stuff only gets linked to if the spider can find it
[14:18] <smains> if I don't leave any links to a site, then it won't be indexed
[14:18] <toad_> if the spider can't find it, chances are most users can't find it either
[14:18] <smains> ok
[14:18] <toad_> the spider can conceivably read from freesites, NIMs and frost
[14:19] <toad_> i'd be willing to write the initial version of the spider, but i'd expect it to be maintained and especially run by other people
[14:19] <toad_> sound good?
[14:20] <smains> but if it takes a week, then why not write it after the initial release?
[14:20] <toad_> because it would radically change the initial release
[14:20] <toad_> and because it's going to be months before we do 0.7.0-final
[14:21] <toad_> if we add a standard metadata element for activelink, we could have the search results include them...
[14:22] <toad_> and we might want to run searches in the background, like downloads, since if the index is big, the search will be relatively slow
[14:23] <toad_> another advantage is that indexing becomes more meritocratic again, as it should be on freenet
[14:23] <toad_> so if nobody searches for keywords starting with "uz", then it falls off the network :)
[14:24] <toad_> or "ch"
[14:24] <toad_> unlike with TFE, where most known sites are deliberately propagated by means of activelinks
[14:25] <toad_> ok, i need to do some shopping, bbiab
[14:28] <smains> ok, but then it
[14:28] <toad_> sandos: then it what?
[14:29] <smains> ok, if it radically improves the usability for new users then we should do it
[14:29] <toad_> ties in nicely with USKs too... the spider doesn't need to worry about DBRs, since only USKs can be updated
[14:30] <toad_> ... and the node will provide a means to automatically track updates of USKs (and to find all old editions, which the spider will definitely want to do)
[14:30] <smains> but if it doesn't then we should wait, the important thing is that freenet 0.7 isn't getting known as unusable software right after the slashdot
[14:31] <toad_> yup
[14:31] <toad_> key to that is having a reasonable length of time for beta testing, updating third party apps, etc
[14:31] <toad_> also if we do implement searching i think we should seriously consider bundling frost and fiw
[14:32] <toad_> need to talk to ian about it really
[14:32] <toad_> oh well, hopefully after i come back from shopping
[14:32] <toad_> bbl, back ~ 1 hour
[14:33] <TheSeeker> Toad: would my usage of existing systems impplementation of a spider->seach mechanism work, or do you think it would be too much work? [user spiders, makes lists (per word) of all freesite keys containing individual words, and inserts the lists as lots of SSK@key/site/word// pages]
[14:42] <TheSeeker> just read your post ... version 1 sounds a little similar, but depends on keywords provided by the freesite authors... I suppose it has exactly the same vulnerability to false positives as using actual page text though...
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[17:01] <toad_> TheSeeker: what's your existing stuff? you have a client, a file format?
[17:01] <toad_> version 0 and 1 both use page text in my spec
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[17:25] <nextgens_> hi
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[19:21] <FallingBuzzard> https://wss2.bp.com/RM/GDCT/EI/Projects/BW-USRM/BUGFO%20%20WIP/BUGFO%20Backend%20Design/BUGFO_Loader_Template.xls
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[19:26] <toad_> eh?
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[19:56] <MHq> anything wrong today? its all day long i cant connect
[19:58] <nextgens> MHq> where ?
[19:58] <MHq> country u mean?
[20:01] <MHq> freenet keeps saying is starting but never connect
[20:03] <toad_> Open Connections (in advanced mode) ?
[20:04] <MHq> mmhh..where to see that
[20:05] <toad_> web interface -> advanced mode -> open connections
[20:06] <MHq> how can i see web interface if i cant connect
[20:06] <MHq> i mean, it doesnt even start
[20:06] <toad_> ah
[20:06] <toad_> hmmm
[20:06] <toad_> windows?
[20:06] <MHq> yah
[20:06] <MHq> xp pro
[20:06] <MHq> sp2
[20:07] <MHq> it worked till yesterday eve
[20:07] <toad_> hmmm
[20:07] <toad_> dunno
[20:07] <toad_> ask support@freenetproject.org
[20:08] <MHq> will try to turn off the firewall even if i dint change anything on that
[20:10] <toad_> i doubt that's it
[20:10] <toad_> you got freenet.log?
[20:10] <MHq> yes
[20:10] <MHq> can i paste to chan?
[20:10] <toad_> if it's not big
[20:11] <MHq> not that much
[20:11] <MHq> 14-nov-2005 21.08.07 (freenet.node.Main, main): Starting Freenet (Fred) 0.5 node, build #5106 on JVM Sun Microsystems Inc.:Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM:1.4.2_05-b04
[20:11] * MHq (n=whocarez@81-208-106-73.ip.fastwebnet.it) Quit (Excess Flood)
[20:11] <toad_> oops
[20:11] * MHq (n=whocarez@81-208-106-73.ip.fastwebnet.it) has joined #freenet
[20:11] <MHq> lol
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.support.io.ReadInputStream.readUTFChar(ReadInputStream.java:223)
[20:11] <toad_> oops
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.support.io.ReadInputStream.readToEOF(ReadInputStream.java:134)
[20:11] <toad_> paste SLOWLY
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.support.io.CommentedReadInputStream.readToEOF(CommentedReadInputStream.java:45)
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.support.io.ReadInputStream.readToEOF(ReadInputStream.java:184)
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.FieldSet.privParse(FieldSet.java:521)
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.FieldSet.parseFields(FieldSet.java:454)
[20:11] <MHq> at freenet.FieldSet.parseFields(FieldSet.java:390)
[20:12] <MHq> at freenet.FieldSet.<init>(FieldSet.java:83)
[20:12] <toad_> okay that looks bad, but i need the top
[20:12] <MHq> at freenet.node.Main.loadNodeFile(Main.java:2950)
[20:12] <MHq> ok that was the last part
[20:12] <MHq> finished :)
[20:12] <MHq> ok
[20:12] <MHq> 14-nov-2005 21.08.07 (freenet.node.Main, main): Starting Freenet (Fred) 0.5 node, build #5106 on JVM Sun Microsystems Inc.:Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM:1.4.2_05-b04
[20:12] <MHq> os.arch = x86
[20:12] <MHq> Loading native...
[20:12] <MHq> Attempting to load freenet/support/CPUInformation/jcpuid-x86-windows.dll
[20:12] <MHq> Written to C:\DOCUME~1\Gianluca\LOCALS~1\Temp\jcpuid43544lib.tmp: 40960
[20:12] <MHq> INFO: Native CPUID library 'freenet/support/CPUInformation/jcpuid-x86-windows.dll' loaded from resource
[20:12] <MHq> INFO: Optimized native BigInteger library 'net/i2p/util/jbigi-windows-pentium4.dll' loaded from resource
[20:12] <MHq> java.io.EOFException
[20:12] <toad_> okay your node file is corrupt
[20:12] <toad_> remove it
[20:12] <toad_> and restart
[20:12] <MHq> where is it
[20:13] <MHq> or how is it called
[20:15] <toad_> in the dir where freenet is
[20:15] <toad_> it's called node_<your port number>
[20:15] <MHq> ok ty
[20:16] <MHq> mhh have just a node file, but withou port number
[20:17] <MHq> ok done it works, thanks :)
[20:27] <toad_> ;)
[20:27] <toad_> you been using freenet for long?
[20:28] <MHq> 1 year more or less but am not conected that much
[20:29] * toad_ fears the answer when asking what people use freenet for...
[20:30] <MHq> honestly: dont have that use of freenet but i like the idea behind it. So i mainly want to support
[20:30] <MHq> giving bw and hd space. me on a 10/10
[20:30] <MHq> like any project with anonimity in mind..think its or it will be soon a must
[20:30] <toad_> what's 10/10?
[20:30] <MHq> 10 mbit
[20:31] <toad_> wooh cool
[20:31] <toad_> nod
[20:31] <toad_> i try to keep in contact with the community, but a lot of the content is rubbish :)
[20:31] <toad_> if you want in on 0.7, /join #freenet-alphatest
[20:32] <MHq> is that more useful to test the beta instead of giving bw to the stable versions?
[20:32] <toad_> you can do both, it's very low overhead at the moment
[20:32] <toad_> anyway even 0.5 can't do 10Mbps
[20:33] <MHq> if i leave bw to 0 in the config it means i dont put any limit, right?
[20:33] <toad_> yes
[20:34] <MHq> ok
[20:34] <MHq> as i said yesterday, my only worries about freenet is the huge amount of I/O
[20:34] <MHq> harddrives work constantly, averagelly 1 I/O per second
[20:35] <toad_> ahhh
[20:35] <toad_> so it's not cpu-bound?
[20:35] <toad_> that's surprising
[20:35] <MHq> cpu-bound?
[20:35] <toad_> well it could still be cpu-bound... 1 i/o per second is nothing... :)
[20:36] <MHq> lol
[20:36] <toad_> but it's a worry on laptops or IDE drives
[20:36] <toad_> (like mine, which have been fairly reliable despite all my terabytes of freenet logging over the years)
[20:36] <MHq> mmhh...everyone have IDE drives aint it
[20:37] <toad_> yup
[20:37] <MHq> lol
[20:37] <MHq> so everyone have to worry about that
[20:37] <toad_> well, mine have mostly held out pretty well
[20:37] <toad_> 1 i/o per second is not a serious worry anyway; Big Servers do a lot more than that
[20:38] <MHq> eheh ..consider that i also run a ftp and couple p2p appy
[20:38] <toad_> no big deal really imho
[20:38] <toad_> but it's your hardware
[20:38] <toad_> keep it cool, and it'll be fine
[20:39] <sandos> I agree...
[20:39] <sandos> besides, harddisk die even if you dont use them much, or if you turn them off all the time...
[20:39] <sandos> :)
[20:39] <MHq> eheh..then mine will survive for ages
[20:40] <MHq> anyway, anything against bog brother gets my attention, thats why im running freenet
[20:45] <toad_> hmmm
[20:46] <toad_> did sun reduce the default heap size in 1.5 to 16MB?
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[20:58] <MHq> BTW toad_ my cpu priority is set to idle in freenet config as per default i think
[20:58] <toad_> doesn't matter unless you've got heavy stuff running in foreground
[20:59] <MHq> not
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[22:36] <toad_> hi
[22:48] <Elly> toad_
[22:48] <Elly> why is it that all the cutting-edge cool stuff is written in horrible code-grinder languages like Java
[23:19] <toad_> Elly: chat@freenetproject.org
[23:19] * cut (n=cut@2001:5c0:897f:0:0:0:0:1) has joined #freenet
[23:19] <Elly> huh?
[23:20] * cut (n=cut@2001:5c0:897f:0:0:0:0:1) has left #freenet
[23:38] <hobx> what is a none code grinding language?
Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
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