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[1:08] <linyos> gah
[1:08] <linyos> i'll finish that damn thing tomorrow
[1:08] <linyos> too ambitious
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[13:48] <linyos> toad_: yo
[13:49] <linyos> what do we do when a freesite has, say, 1000 30-byte files?
[13:49] <linyos> you can pack them into one block, but then...
[13:50] <linyos> if any one file changes, the block changes. and that means anyone who requests another file from the same block has to re-download it.
[13:50] <linyos> even if the file he's requesting hasn't changed....
[13:51] <linyos> (and i thought this would be simple.)
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[14:07] <linyos> maybe that doesn't matter?
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[16:12] <toad_> hi folks
[16:13] <toad_> linyos: i don't think it matters if it fits in a block
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[16:27] <sandos> hi
[16:27] <toad_> hi
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[17:25] <linyos> toad_: you already have an "archive" architecture implemented right?
[17:25] <linyos> does it allow changes to the archive?
[17:26] <toad_> huh?
[17:26] <linyos> weren't you working on zip files?
[17:26] <toad_> archive = extracting files from a ZIP/tar.gz/etc
[17:26] <toad_> yes
[17:27] <linyos> so for a freesite, you'd zip together all the html files in the tree?
[17:27] <toad_> probably
[17:27] <linyos> into an archive, and insert that
[17:27] <linyos> ok
[17:27] <toad_> yup
[17:27] <linyos> problem with that: you change one file and the whole archive is different
[17:27] <linyos> meaning the whole thing has to be reinserted
[17:27] <linyos> very bandwidth inefficient if freesite publishers have to reinsert the whole tree every day.
[17:28] <toad_> sure
[17:28] <toad_> has to be used with care
[17:28] <toad_> but most freesites won't be many blocks
[17:29] <linyos> yeah, but if we're automatically publishing a directory... how careful can we be
[17:30] <linyos> i've been thinking about a smarter implementation that also addresses erasure correction
[17:31] <linyos> it's more complicated than i thought
[17:34] <nextgens> hi
[17:35] * nextgens has just read toad_'s latest post on devl
[17:35] <nextgens> what about using an already existing database as a backend for our datastore ?
[17:36] <nextgens> something like sqlite
[17:36] <toad_> yeah i did mention that
[17:36] <nextgens> maybe we don't need it to be relationnal ...
[17:36] <toad_> that's probably the best thing at least for the index
[17:36] <nextgens> but still, it does have good performances
[17:36] <toad_> it needs to have an on-disk btree structure
[17:36] <toad_> for indexes
[17:36] <toad_> which are larger than RAM
[17:37] <toad_> and it needs to be fast
[17:37] <toad_> nextgens: what's your view on using i2p's bottom layer as our transport backend?
[17:38] <toad_> nextgens: jrandom showed me a demo of creating a router and turning everything off, which is the recommended way to do things
[17:38] <toad_> i thought that was horrible (but at least it's maintained)
[17:38] <nextgens> I dunno what does I2P backend look like
[17:38] <nextgens> ah sorry, for transport
[17:38] <toad_> i don't know
[17:38] <toad_> it does what we want
[17:39] <toad_> but just taking a router and turning stuff off seems unacceptable to me
[17:39] * nextgens hasn't read the whole question :-D
[17:39] <nextgens> toad_> it depends ...
[17:40] <nextgens> if it's maintained, and not buggy, it could do the trick ... it's well written
[17:40] <nextgens> and as far as I can see even your "rewritten from scratch" low level code is buggy :)
[17:41] <nextgens> for me it makes sense to use something we can trust as "low level" code
[17:41] <nextgens> toad_> what's the problem of using their code ? :)
[17:42] <nextgens> turning things off means that we can even clean their sources up ...
[17:42] <nextgens> It doesn't truck me :p
[17:45] <toad_> well, what he showed me was ugly
[17:46] * nextgens hasn't found this part :)
[17:46] <toad_> well, if we want it fully and trivially maintained, we have to create a router, and turn everything off
[17:46] <nextgens> maybe I haven't read enough of it
[17:46] <toad_> if we don't mind ripping the code manually, then it's not a big problem
[17:46] <toad_> i2p's cvs... SSUDemo.java in router
[17:46] * toad_ fetches
[17:48] <nextgens> http://dev.i2p.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/i2p/router/java/src/net/i2p/router/SSUDemo.java?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain;f=H
[17:48] <toad_> http://dev.i2p.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/i2p/router/java/src/net/i2p/router/SSUDemo.java?annotate=1.1;f=H
[17:48] <toad_> yeah that one
[17:48] <nextgens> // wait for it to warm up a bit
[17:48] <nextgens> try { Thread.sleep(30*1000); } catch (InterruptedException ie) {}
[17:48] <nextgens> erf
[17:48] <nextgens> :-D
[17:48] <toad_> heh
[17:49] <toad_> well
[17:49] <toad_> maybe we can use their code
[17:49] <toad_> but not like that
[17:49] <toad_> :)
[17:50] <toad_> i'm just a bit skeptical now
[17:50] <toad_> and i'm looking at some major low level debugging of my own low level stuff which isn't even complete
[17:50] <toad_> so it'd be better if we could use i2p's code
[17:50] <nextgens> private File getInfoDir() { return new File("/tmp/ssuDemoInfo/"); }
[17:51] <toad_> but we'll probably have to maintain it ourselves
[17:51] <nextgens> well, agreed, this part is awfull :)
[17:51] <toad_> well it is a demo :)
[17:51] <toad_> i've written plenty of code like that :)
[17:52] <nextgens> well, it's in the /test directory on emu ;)
[17:53] <toad_> hehe, they nicked our CPUInfo
[17:54] <toad_> gah
[17:54] <toad_> the error i'm looking for won't show up
[17:54] <toad_> you add debugging code to debug it
[17:54] <toad_> and then it doesn't show up
[17:55] <nextgens> erf
[17:55] <nextgens> won't be funny if it was ;)
[17:55] <toad_> huh?
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[17:56] <toad_> there's a bizarre error probably in DoublyLinkedList or near it
[17:57] <toad_> and i can't track it down because it goes away when you debug it
[17:57] <toad_> or at least it takes hours to appear
[17:58] <toad_> but it *did* exist yesterday
[17:58] <toad_> and there are lots of wierd behaviours that strongly suggest something seriously wrong somewhere
[18:10] <toad_> Nov 12, 2005 18:07:46:196 (freenet.support.FileLoggerHook, Thread-10, ERROR): Go
[18:10] <toad_> t evil NPE-in-stack-trace bug
[18:10] <toad_> yikes
[18:10] <toad_> shit
[18:10] <toad_> the IllegalStateException's that are supposed to be being thrown because of the bug are not being thrown
[18:11] <toad_> because of a stupid ****ing JVM bug which swallows stack traces and turns them into NPEs (when you try to write them out)
[18:14] <toad_> nextgens: advice?
[18:15] <nextgens> I dunno
[18:15] <nextgens> give a try with jdb maybe ?
[18:17] <toad_> i mean re i2p
[18:22] <nextgens> I dunno either ...
[18:23] <nextgens> adopting I2P's code will break what I've written ^-^
[18:23] <nextgens> but on the other hand, they might be interested by what I'm trying to write
[18:23] <nextgens> and for sure, we DO need a reliable transport code ...
[18:24] <nextgens> however, they have switched to UDP not a long time ago AFAIK ...
[18:24] <nextgens> and I heard they are having problems recently ...
[18:24] <nextgens> might be not related ...
[18:25] <nextgens> as when they switched to udp, there was a huge increase in terms of performances
[18:25] <nextgens> toad_> ask someone else :)
[18:25] * toad_ gets new JDK, maybe this will help with the stupiddumbstacktracebug
[18:26] <nextgens> toad_> do you think it will be faster to debug your code or to adopt their ? :)
[18:26] <toad_> i don't know
[18:26] <toad_> i'm getting nowhere right now
[18:26] <toad_> i was on the tail of a wierd bug
[18:26] <toad_> and then it just vanished
[18:26] <toad_> yet it
[18:26] <toad_> yet the effects which i had assumed were caused by it remain
[18:26] * nextgens is thinking of the deadline set by Ian, Christmas
[18:27] <toad_> no way is that gonna happen
[18:27] <toad_> but we also need to implement JFKi
[18:27] <toad_> or something
[18:27] <toad_> for proper link level encryption
[18:27] <nextgens> agreed
[18:33] <linyos> forget i2p, write a generic kleinberg-sandberg darknet layer.
[18:33] <linyos> you could do that by christmas...
[18:33] <nextgens> linyos> with your help maybe ? :)
[18:35] <linyos> hah, maybe. it sounds neat now but i lack all conviction, blah blah blah.
[18:36] <toad_> a what?
[18:37] <linyos> just the darknet part, not the application part
[18:37] <linyos> ie, set up links, route from A to B
[18:37] <toad_> linyos: i don't need to write all the low level encryption stuff by christmas because it's not immediately necessary
[18:38] <toad_> but what i DO need is to debug the existing low level stuff
[18:38] <toad_> linyos: and what exactly would that be useful for?
[18:38] <toad_> linyos: it would be totally useless. i know, because i have implemented one. it's called freenet 0.7.
[18:38] <linyos> the users could run web servers or whatever
[18:39] <toad_> i have implemented node to node routing
[18:39] * toad_ is tempted to /kick linyos for ignorance
[18:39] <linyos> i'm saying, politically you could stop there and declare victory
[18:39] <toad_> linyos: you have any idea how much time i wasted messing around with publish/subscribe?
[18:39] <toad_> no, you were asleep at the time
[18:39] <toad_> and routing node to node doesn't work anyway
[18:39] <linyos> "now we have this undetectable communications layer, application come later..."
[18:39] <toad_> you have to know the node's ID
[18:40] <toad_> and the ID's are constantly swapped
[18:40] <toad_> s/ID/location
[18:40] <linyos> yeah, i'm full of shit.
[18:41] <linyos> and you're right about the ids being swapped.
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[19:07] <linyos> talk about ignorance. i really don't understand how freenet can work when the locations of the nodes change...
[19:07] <toad_> that's the whole basis of the algorithm :)
[19:07] <toad_> read the paper
[19:07] <linyos> i read the presentation.
[19:07] <toad_> yeah
[19:07] * linyos reads it again
[19:07] <toad_> well it only works because of location swapping
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[19:12] <linyos> um
[19:13] <linyos> in the presentation, they ran 2000 iterations of the swapping algorithm, and then checked how well the network routed from one node to another
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[19:14] <linyos> and i know that in freenet you route requests for keys as if the key were the location of a node
[19:15] <linyos> but if the locations are changing all the while, routing will not be consistent from one request to the next...
[19:15] <linyos> confused...
[19:19] <toad_> the nodes start off with random locations
[19:19] <toad_> the swapping algorithm moves the locations to places so that greedy routing works
[19:20] <linyos> right.
[19:21] <toad_> it is supposed to converge
[19:21] <toad_> as the locations approach optimality, we get fewer and fewer swaps
[19:23] <linyos> oh, so that convergence means that a request for X will always head for the same general location in the darknet
[19:23] <linyos> hmm
[19:24] <toad_> 19:12:50 dropping packet, not connected... 19:08:42 in processOutgoingPreformatted
[19:24] <toad_> what's in between?
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[21:36] <Toast> toad_: Got a resuggestion. (as in a suggestion that I think has been made before). For users with high node uptimes and a dose of paranoia, could freenet 0.7 have an option to encript it's entire datastore and all outputs with a key stored in ram? There would need to be a way to upgrade the node code without losing the key, but it would be very secure.
[21:36] <toad_> maybe
[21:36] <toad_> added to todo list
[21:37] <Toast> I'm sure your todo list is so long you have trouble finding the end!
[21:39] <Toast> A useful stastic to pull from the node would be the distribution between key age (by LRU) and number of retrevals. I've always been intrested in how much good a large datastore does.
[21:44] <toad_> true
[21:44] <toad_> yes
[21:46] <sandos> so the store keeps blocks based on LRU only?
[21:47] <sandos> what about flooding? wouldnt that allow anyone to fill youre store with thrash?
[21:47] <sandos> (I was incidentally thinking about this yesterday =)
[21:56] <toad_> limited by bandwidth
[22:12] <linyos> Toast: you really want an encrypted block device.
[22:12] <linyos> Toast: it's trivial with modern linux kernels.
[22:13] <linyos> sandos: ultimately, caching by popularity is vulnerable to flooding no matter what algorithm you use.
[22:17] <sandos> that might be true, I guess
[22:18] <sandos> Im thinking a simple LRU scheme is not really right for a darknet-oriented network. I think one configurable part for LRU, and one part could be for your direct contacts only.. only blocks they insert is stored there
[22:19] <sandos> the LRU part is of course needed if the network is to actually have a distributed storage capability.. just your friends data being flooded out isnt very nice
[22:19] <sandos> and you can of course know its them who inserted it via public key crypto...
[22:28] <toad_> well
[22:28] <toad_> you could have some sort of trust-based metric i suppose on a darknet, but that require an awful lot of information
[22:29] <toad_> very dangerous info
[22:29] <toad_> for streams, we have i cache the stream if somebody connected to me asked me for it
[22:29] <toad_> or if a local client wants it
[22:29] <toad_> but that implies a longer term relationship
[22:29] <toad_> anyway bbl
[22:31] <sandos> might be a non-problem.. but.. Im also very worried about how the network manages stores.. because it might just store alot of bad files.. so is there any kind of feedback when a download is successful? otherwise people can try to download stuff, not knowing its incompete, and they continue to and keeps the partial file in stores
[22:32] <sandos> this is practically solved on freenet it seems with metadata in the form of html saying "this file is incomplete"
[22:32] <sandos> possibly making fewer try to download the file
[22:32] <linyos> the publisher would just have to reinsert the file then.
[22:33] <sandos> well, the problem is if he doesnt
[22:33] <sandos> and people continue to try to download the partial file
[22:33] <linyos> hopefully with appropriate forward erasure correction, file failures will be rare.
[22:33] <sandos> no?
[22:33] <sandos> the network has a limited amount of storage
[22:33] <sandos> and knowing people, they want unlimited storage :)
[22:34] <sandos> I know I do ;)
[22:34] <sandos> in my mind LRU on its own is a very bad idea. :) this i just a hunch though
[22:35] <linyos> who knows how it'll turn out, i could imagine it either way.
[22:35] <linyos> obviously unpopular files will fall out, the only question is 'how unpopular?'
[22:35] <sandos> I had the idea anyway that a successful download would be notified to nodes having blocks of that file in their store. They then mark those blocks with a date of last successful download, and total number of downloads.
[22:36] <linyos> if many people are failing to download files then we have already failed.
[22:36] <sandos> blocks with 0 successful downloada that has been in the node are then candidates for removal, as is blocks with a last successful download far back in time
[22:36] <sandos> yes, but wasting space on those blocks seems bad?
[22:36] <linyos> i guess so
[22:37] <linyos> but that is a tricky system to implement
[22:37] <sandos> Im sure it is :)
[22:39] <linyos> sandos: i agree about limited capacity and unlimited demand being a problem.
[22:39] <linyos> that is why in the real world things have prices
[22:39] <linyos> to ration the existing supply and to stimulate supply growth in times of high demand
[22:40] <linyos> (good luck applying that to p2p)
[22:40] <sandos> :)
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