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[6:12] -lilo- [Global Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing some hub <-> hub routing problems, we're looking at it now
[6:21] -lilo- [Global Notice] We're going to experiment with a bit of latency reduction, please bear with us.
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[8:08] <PrototypeX29A> hi
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[9:02] <Connelly> how goes freenet?
[9:11] <linyos> toad is presently writing the node's new client interface.
[9:14] <Connelly> i just wanted to say that it's cool that toad started up discussion with the i2p community
[9:15] <Connelly> (even if the discussion was titled as "flamewar" :)
[9:19] <toad_> :)
[9:20] <toad_> what is certain is that we will need help in 0.8/0.9 with premix routing
[9:20] <toad_> what is not certain is from whom
[9:25] <Connelly> i didn't even know that freenet was still like
[9:25] <Connelly> working
[9:25] <linyos> are you an i2p developer?
[9:25] <Connelly> so it's nice to have dialogue going on
[9:26] <Connelly> i haven't coded for i2p in like 1 year
[9:26] <Connelly> been busy w/ school
[9:26] <Connelly> but i still use i2p & tor
[9:27] <Connelly> i should try freenet again :)
[9:29] <Connelly> and if you get darknets working in china
[9:29] <Connelly> you kick ass
[9:29] <Connelly> don't listen to jrandom, he's just being a pussy
[9:34] <linyos> heh
[9:34] <linyos> darknets will work in china when the party is overthrown
[9:34] * linyos bitches.
[9:35] <Connelly> hmm
[9:35] <Connelly> maybe it's better not to even try
[9:36] <Connelly> and this radical Free Speech thing
[9:36] <Connelly> what's with that?
[9:36] <Connelly> i mean, talk about throwing caution to the wind
[9:37] <Connelly> what if when one attempts to found a country on free speech, people get killed for it?
[9:37] <linyos> is that sarcasm, or are you suggesting a more covert approach to disruptive technology?
[9:38] <Connelly> it's obviously much safer to stick with feudalism
[9:38] <linyos> it totally would make sense to sneak in a freedom-enabling system under some other pretext.
[9:39] <linyos> like, here is one of my ideas.
[9:39] <Connelly> i was being sarcastic
[9:39] <linyos> suppose that the next generation of operating systems didn't use end-to-end networking.
[9:39] <linyos> but that they were intimately linked in strange ways with computers all over the internet.
[9:40] <linyos> this big collection of computers would implement internet services, &c
[9:40] <linyos> the result?
[9:40] <linyos> (a) everybody is networking in a way that is very hard to filter or control
[9:40] <linyos> (b) controlling it is tantamount to rewriting everybody's software
[9:41] <Connelly> you must be a mathematician
[9:41] <Connelly> only a mathematician could be so perverted
[9:42] <Connelly> ;)
[9:43] <Connelly> well that might work
[9:44] <Connelly> i have no idea what chain of events would lead to that situation though
[9:45] <linyos> i'm imaging people renting and connecting-together remote virtual machines (of various kinds) that would work as an integral part of their computing.
[9:46] <linyos> there are plenty of technical reasons (fault-tolerance, pay-as-you-go performance, etc) for doing something of that kind.
[9:46] <Connelly> like the whole Sun claim "the network is the computer"
[9:46] <linyos> yeah, nothing new here.
[9:46] <Connelly> yeah that could make some really gnarled networks
[9:47] <Connelly> so chinese freedom might leak into them
[9:47] <linyos> i'm just saying as a side-effect it would produce some _really_ incomprehensible network activity. i'd hate to have to sniff out illegal activity by tapping somebody's link to those kinds of resources.
[9:47] <Connelly> hey how do i tell freenet that i have a JRE for freenet-webinstall.exe ?
[9:48] <Connelly> haha
[9:48] * linyos shrugs
[9:49] <Connelly> traffic analysis would be lots of fun on a massive high speed distributed grid of computers
[9:51] <Connelly> or does everyone here use cvs builds?
[9:51] <Connelly> i'm ignorant
[9:52] <linyos> the snapshots should work fine.
[9:52] <linyos> cvs can be a pain because there are some dependencies.
[9:53] <Connelly> ok
[9:53] <Connelly> does freenet actually work?
[9:54] <linyos> depends on your standards
[9:54] <linyos> it'll very slowly and unreliably do its thing
[9:54] <linyos> yes
[9:54] <linyos> you can browse some sites
[9:56] <Connelly> #^@^!** java
[9:58] <Connelly> i have 3 JREs
[9:58] <Connelly> this is getting out of hand
[10:02] <Connelly> ah the freenet wiki had the answer
[10:07] <Connelly> "Using this software may be illegal under some jurisdictions."
[10:07] <Connelly> haha
[10:08] <Connelly> freenet's builtin html filterer sure is nice
[10:08] <toad_> linyos: what if the overthrow of the party depends on darknets?
[10:12] <Connelly> i'm guessing it's bad if my freenet gateway page is not loading instantly
[10:12] <Connelly> wait, it loaded 2 freesite icons
[10:12] <Connelly> progress! :)
[10:13] <Connelly> woohoo it works
[10:14] <linyos> toad_: i can imagine that a small group of conspirators could organize with the help of covert comms over the net.
[10:15] <linyos> that has never really been my thing though.
[10:15] <linyos> (i mean, i have no expertise in conspiracies.)
[10:16] <linyos> but as for mass freedom of expression slowly cultivating popular resistance & organization, i don't think freenet would be allowed to get that far.
[10:16] <Connelly> i thought that ANC link posted on the i2p maillist was really interesting
[10:17] <Connelly> http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/vula.html
[10:19] <Connelly> or http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2005-October/001003.html
[10:19] <Connelly> (executive summary)
[10:19] <Connelly> freenet might not be allowed to get that far
[10:19] <Connelly> but how can you know without trying?
[10:20] <Connelly> that's like saying "oh there is theoretical problem Y with freedom of speech, therefore we should not try it out"
[10:20] <linyos> obviously you can't, but i have lost my faith
[10:21] <linyos> anyway, i don't necessarily think political conspiracies are good or desirable.
[10:22] <linyos> whereas i have unqualified support for freenet's concept of absolute freedom of expression.
[10:22] <Connelly> weird
[10:22] <Connelly> i lack your faith :)
[10:24] <linyos> it's not like being allowed to read the newspaper or books about politics would hurt people...
[10:25] <Connelly> but i like that you say 'absolute freedom of speech'
[10:26] <Connelly> i gave a speech on anonymous networks in comm 114H
[10:26] <Connelly> made everyone's hair stand on end
[10:26] <Connelly> i think many people are scared to death of 'freedom of speech'
[10:26] <Connelly> (the absolute variant)
[10:26] <Connelly> :)
[10:27] <toad_> no point beating traffic analysis by centralizing everything into single points of control... but we've had this argument before
[10:27] <Connelly> huh?
[10:27] <toad_> linyos: a SMALL GROUP OF CONSPIRATORS will not overthrow the party
[10:27] <toad_> a small group of conspirators will simply be executed
[10:29] <linyos> ok, then a medium-sized organization of insurgents
[10:29] <toad_> a medium sized organization of insurgents might manage to generate a civil war, but only if it had mass popular support
[10:29] <toad_> which it can't have without being able to communicate to the masses
[10:30] <toad_> but the ideal is the bloodless revolution which we have seen in many countries recently
[10:30] <Connelly> discussion of freeing people from fascism always spirals into war
[10:31] <linyos> yeah, and freenet for the masses is the only thing i'm interested in. i just don't see it being tolerated in any way; it is so threatening.
[10:31] <toad_> Connelly: like it did in serbia, ukraine, kyrgyzstan?
[10:31] <Connelly> it's like your talk is a contraction mapping on a banach space
[10:31] <Connelly> and thus there exists a unique fixed point
[10:31] <Connelly> war
[10:31] <toad_> Connelly: bloodless revolutions happen
[10:31] <toad_> there've been lots of them recently
[10:31] <linyos> i have no interest in starting civil wars.
[10:32] <Connelly> me either
[10:32] <toad_> the problem is, they don't happen in places like iraq under saddam hussein
[10:32] <Connelly> right
[10:32] <Connelly> many of the islamic countries in africa seem to be like that too
[10:33] <Connelly> well heck many of the countries in africa
[10:33] <linyos> they happen to half-hearted strongmen who aren't able to manipulate public sentiments.
[10:33] <toad_> many of the central asian republics too
[10:33] <Connelly> bloody coups only
[10:33] <toad_> many of the countries in africa have regular civil wars
[10:35] <toad_> linyos: well, the thing is, imho, that in an ideal democracy you don't need freenet because you *have* political freedom of speech. unfortunately such an ideal does not exist in the real world, between all the litigation and so on
[10:35] <linyos> i am very interested in the possibility that the world political system might be recrystallized around a post-state social model.
[10:35] <toad_> freenet is only useful in less than perfect regimes
[10:36] <toad_> heh, you mean corporate rule? :)
[10:36] <Connelly> yeah
[10:36] <Connelly> i'm totally betting money on wal mart
[10:36] <linyos> toad_: actually my best idea yet calls for small communities that govern themselves by consensus.
[10:36] <linyos> so that everyone is part of a sort of extended family of a N-thousand people.
[10:37] <linyos> would solve a lot of problems, imho.
[10:37] <toad_> lets call them... "villages"
[10:37] <linyos> yeah.
[10:38] <Connelly> politics is NP complete
[10:38] <linyos> i have recently turned against the liberal state.
[10:38] <Connelly> give up now
[10:38] <Connelly> you are on the way to destruction
[10:38] <Connelly> all your base are belong to george bush
[10:40] <linyos> Connelly: and suppose that you are wrong, and that revolutionary social improvement is simply waiting for someone who can figure out the recipe.
[10:41] <toad_> the problem is, you have to change BOTH systems AND people
[10:41] <toad_> changing systems successfully is hard. changing enough people is much harder.
[10:42] <linyos> changing people is the business of religion. i'm not at all qualified to lead by example in that way.
[10:42] <toad_> :)
[10:42] <Connelly> i'm telling you, it's NP complete
[10:43] <toad_> i think that was my point. as long as people are assholes, ANY system will fuck up badly
[10:43] <Connelly> politics is just a way to convert time into heat
[10:43] <Connelly> like a heat engine with efficiency zero
[10:43] <toad_> well there's politics and politics
[10:43] <linyos> toad_: i don't buy that. i think the equation for social evil may be:
[10:43] <toad_> i was recently involved in the Mass Lobby for Trade Justice
[10:43] <toad_> which has a political goal
[10:43] <linyos> evil = personal_evil * institutional_evil
[10:44] <toad_> but was useful
[10:44] <linyos> ie, with good social institutions, bad people are less harmful.
[10:44] <toad_> linyos: but evil people will corrupt good institutions
[10:44] <linyos> some institutions are harder to corrupt.
[10:44] <toad_> unless the vast majority are willing to fight for justice, in preserving just institutions, it will degenerate
[10:45] <linyos> i think i agree.
[10:45] <toad_> and that does include foregoing material gain sometimes
[10:45] <toad_> and if they are, the institutions will tend to move in a positive direction
[10:46] <linyos> certainly.
[10:47] <Connelly> see
[10:47] <Connelly> heat
[10:47] <toad_> "this is all i require: do justice, and love mercy"
[10:47] <Connelly> you prove me right
[10:47] <linyos> my theory is simply that we are working with a bad social model, and that the state system may be preventing or slowing-down progress.
[10:47] <Connelly> (don't take me seriously, i'm just joking...)
[10:48] <linyos> there have been many social systems in history, who says a better one is not around the corner?
[10:48] <toad_> there are feedback loops everywhere, i'm not especially fond of the nation state, but any new system must be something we can build now, incrementally, defensibly, without initially pissing off too many people
[10:48] <linyos> oh, i agree.
[10:49] <linyos> i'm not calling for some kind of drastic and controversial social revolution
[10:49] <toad_> i like the fact that we now have international democratic structures (the EU), even if they aren't very democratic, they're more accountable than the old backroom deals
[10:49] <Connelly> democracy always confuses me
[10:49] <Connelly> i can't logically justify voting
[10:49] <toad_> (well okay, the european parliament ;) )
[10:49] <Connelly> yet i vote nonetheless
[10:49] <toad_> Connelly: easy: there are no good dictators. well, there are very few good dictators.
[10:50] <toad_> democracy means the people get what they deserve ;)
[10:50] <toad_> ... so they vote in George Bush and Maggie Thatcher ! ;)
[10:50] <Connelly> huh
[10:50] <Connelly> how does that motivate me personally to vote
[10:50] <Connelly> man your logic is like
[10:51] <Connelly> weird
[10:52] <toad_> Connelly: our society is a democracy. it may not be a perfect democracy, but a good deal of the power has been given to the people. many have died for this ideal, and it has achieved many good things. and if They (tories/republicans/democrats/whatever) get in, the country will be worse, and if The Other Lot (labour/lib dem/democrat/whatever) get in, it will be better... and YOU have the power to make a difference
[10:53] <toad_> voting is important, even if you don't like any of the parties
[10:53] <toad_> it's a duty, in fact, to choose the least evil
[10:53] <PrototypeX29A> i havent voted for some time
[10:53] <toad_> the natural tendency of society is to degenerate into protofascism
[10:54] <toad_> one way to stop this is to vote for the right people/party
[10:54] <linyos> i think voluntary association and community consensus is almost certainly a far better system.
[10:54] <toad_> linyos: nothing is ever totally voluntary
[10:55] <toad_> linyos: you always get border issues etc
[10:55] <toad_> you will need a police force, you will have issues with communities expelling undesirables who depress the house prices, etc
[10:55] <linyos> sure, there are issues.
[10:55] <toad_> and you will often not get a consensus on important issues, and the majority will have to overrule the minority
[10:56] <toad_> some things have to be done at a relatively high level
[10:56] <toad_> chip fabs are one example
[10:56] <toad_> IMHO human rights / war crimes courts are another
[10:57] <linyos> the liberal state has serious social issues too.
[10:57] <toad_> and buying stuff routinely from africa can be a good thing
[10:57] <toad_> linyos: indeed
[10:57] <Connelly> oh
[10:58] <Connelly> your logic makes sense toad_
[10:58] <toad_> Connelly: on voting?
[10:58] <Connelly> yes
[10:58] <toad_> yay
[10:58] <Connelly> but when i calculate the probability of me making a difference in any one election it's like 10**-6
[10:59] <toad_> that's inherent in democracy too :)
[10:59] <Connelly> i guess over a whole lifetime the probability that i make a difference in any one election is more like 10**-4
[10:59] <toad_> power to the people... there's an awful lot of people!
[10:59] <Connelly> but it's hard to justify voting when it doesn't *do* anything
[10:59] <linyos> look at what's happening today in france. the state has created second-class citizens.
[10:59] <PrototypeX29A> we could start another war, then it would be less people
[10:59] <toad_> but it's better than an unaccountable dictatorship which you have to influence via civil war
[10:59] <Connelly> right
[11:00] <Connelly> it's just confusing
[11:01] <Connelly> each person makes no difference
[11:01] <Connelly> the group makes a difference
[11:01] <toad_> right
[11:01] <toad_> how many people were involved in the campaign to end the slave trade?
[11:01] <Connelly> i have the same confusion about recycling, and all sorts of other things
[11:01] <toad_> many many thousands
[11:01] <toad_> but together they achieve something amazing
[11:02] <linyos> slavery is still rampant
[11:02] <toad_> just like war really... you need lots of people, most of them have relatively minor jobs, but success depends on all of them doing their minor jobs
[11:02] <Connelly> yes
[11:02] <Connelly> war is another good example
[11:02] <toad_> linyos: sure, there's the illegal sex slave trade, and there's third world wage slavery
[11:02] <Connelly> i'd always say cool time to drop my name and move to a random country
[11:02] <Connelly> or hang out in jail
[11:02] <toad_> there's some degree of economic oppression everywhere of course
[11:03] <Connelly> if my country were to ask me to fight for them
[11:03] <toad_> Connelly: ;)
[11:03] <Connelly> since i can't really reconcile myself with the group
[11:03] <toad_> Connelly: i agree ! :)
[11:03] <Connelly> well it's just almost nonsensical
[11:03] <Connelly> you have to stand there and look at some guy run at you
[11:03] <Connelly> and pull the trigger
[11:03] <toad_> i think i would fight for the UK though if it was absolutely necessary
[11:03] <Connelly> but to do that, you personally have to want to kill that guy
[11:03] <Connelly> but that's really hard to do as an individual
[11:03] <toad_> there's enough good left here to be worth defending
[11:03] <Connelly> unless you're indoctrinated
[11:04] <Connelly> well s/you/me/
[11:04] <toad_> Connelly: yeah, war is bad... we still haven't managed to get rid of it...
[11:04] <toad_> look on the bright side: there hasn't been a nuclear war yet!
[11:04] <Connelly> :)
[11:05] * toad_ considers that fact to be a minor miracle
[11:05] <PrototypeX29A> the day is young
[11:05] <toad_> :)
[11:05] <toad_> what's an X-29A ?
[11:05] <Connelly> well it's not really a miracle
[11:06] <Connelly> since there were only 2 nations that had nukes for a while
[11:06] <toad_> there've been many more than that since the seventies or so
[11:06] <Connelly> the game theory solution was bad if either started nuclear war
[11:06] <Connelly> and both were pretty rational
[11:06] <Connelly> but now all sorts of zany dictators/radicals have nukes
[11:06] <toad_> well yeah but it got pretty close a few times
[11:07] <toad_> well... iran, north korea, who else?
[11:07] <toad_> pakistan
[11:07] <Connelly> israel
[11:07] <toad_> well, israel is a kind of democracy :)
[11:07] <toad_> it's just got serious problems
[11:08] <Connelly> they need to hire a better PR guy
[11:08] <linyos> fine place to live if you have the right mother.
[11:08] <toad_> i've seen him ... yeah
[11:08] <Connelly> change the name to IsraelSmileyInnovaticon
[11:08] <PrototypeX29A> toad_: its a cyborg
[11:08] <Connelly> put a new more user friendly spin on the holy war
[11:09] <Connelly> man
[11:09] <toad_> maybe the EU can offer israel and palestein membership if they get their act together... :|
[11:09] <Connelly> what am i even talking about?
[11:09] <toad_> Connelly: wasting time, perhaps?
[11:09] <PrototypeX29A> that isn't really europe, is it/
[11:09] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: is turkey?
[11:09] <Connelly> oh yeah
[11:09] <Connelly> time => heat
[11:09] <Connelly> that was the goal
[11:09] <toad_> we have to let turkey in. we probably have to let ukraine in. to avoid pissing off russia, e
[11:09] <toad_> we have to let THEM in
[11:10] <PrototypeX29A> toad_: some parts i guess
[11:10] <toad_> in about 100 years when it's actually a democracy
[11:10] <toad_> :)
[11:10] <toad_> people are talking about north africa
[11:10] <PrototypeX29A> perhaps the north america will be in the eu one day
[11:10] <toad_> i don't think the EU is going to be able to stop expanding ...
[11:10] <Connelly> god this was why i started going cold turkey no irc in the first place
[11:10] <toad_> this may be a good thing, as long as it doesn't compromize its principles
[11:11] <PrototypeX29A> i don't think thats good
[11:11] <toad_> well.. it's more democratic than the WTO
[11:11] <toad_> and the UN
[11:11] <PrototypeX29A> lol the wto
[11:11] <toad_> and all the other international bodies put together
[11:11] <toad_> an economic and political union based on principles is a great idea in theory
[11:12] <toad_> in practice, we'll see
[11:12] <PrototypeX29A> yeah, more open markets
[11:12] <Connelly> yay for markets
[11:12] <PrototypeX29A> great idea
[11:12] <linyos> yay for markets.
[11:12] <PrototypeX29A> we can trade more people
[11:13] <toad_> prosperity, rule of law and democracy... in theory (open markets are *usually* but not *always* a good thing, when between countries which are already reasonably prosperous)
[11:13] <Connelly> i don't like markets or money
[11:13] <linyos> you don't think FDI in the far east has been a good thing????
[11:13] <Connelly> but i know that other people need them to get their stuff done
[11:13] <Connelly> so that's cool with me
[11:13] <linyos> come on, the alternative to south korea is not utopia, it's north korea.
[11:13] <PrototypeX29A> what is FDI?
[11:14] <linyos> that is the fundamental truth that idealists fail to understand.
[11:14] <toad_> open markets are a bad thing when a) they aren't that open (see US/EU subsidies on agriculture etc), or b) some countries have MAJOR disadvantages (e.g. most of africa - trade justice requires that we allow them access to our markets while allowing them to protect their nascent industries until they have the strength to stand on their own 2 feet - *like we did*)
[11:14] <PrototypeX29A> not the countries have a disadvantage, but the people
[11:14] <toad_> both
[11:14] <toad_> but especially the people in the countries :)
[11:15] <linyos> PrototypeX29A: foreign direct investment. ie, american firms building factories to employ migrant workers in shenzhen, etc.
[11:15] <toad_> right, *sometimes* it works, but trade with africa has halved over the last 25 years
[11:15] <toad_> mostly because of unfair trading rules
[11:15] <PrototypeX29A> the american firms are happy to have cheap workers, and the workers in shenzhen may be happy to have kind of a job, but what about the american workers?
[11:15] <toad_> partly this is subsidies etc
[11:16] <toad_> partly it is the west saying "we will bail you out so you can continue to be a state, but you have to buy all our stuff forever"
[11:16] <Connelly> work is highly overrated
[11:16] <Connelly> :)
[11:16] <toad_> so they can appear humanitarian while still oppressing the poor
[11:16] <linyos> american workers can take their privileged rich-country asses to school and learn to do something more valuable than screwing things together on an assembly line.
[11:17] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: well lets leave america out of this. :). it's better to be poor in europe than in africa.
[11:17] <linyos> chinese peasants have _no_such_option_
[11:17] <toad_> it's better to be poor in europe than in america too, but that's another debate :)
[11:17] <PrototypeX29A> toad_: i think it would be much better help for africa to be left alone
[11:18] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: so you think we should only trade within our own countries except in exceptional circumstances? the whole autonomist ideal?
[11:18] <PrototypeX29A> no, but i think complete open markets can't be the answer either
[11:19] <linyos> there is no "answer"
[11:19] <PrototypeX29A> the country should have some kind of control about what is happening
[11:19] <linyos> but there is plenty of room to cause lots of people lots of unnecessary misery in the near term
[11:20] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: what would be better would be for us to trade with africa, but to do it in a reasonable manner. to give them aid, and (temporarily) preferential trade, in order to lift them out of poverty, so we don't have to give them aid in future, and so they can buy OUR stuff in future. you lift all the poor people to the $3K/capita mark, you increase global GDP by like a factor of 6
[11:20] <toad_> well it's a factor of 2ish if you lift them to $3K/capita
[11:20] <toad_> it's 7ish if you go to $20K/capita
[11:21] <PrototypeX29A> what did they gain with our aid? dependency
[11:21] <toad_> we are going to give them aid anyway, since our own people demand that we do something about the starving millions, so we ought to do it right
[11:21] <linyos> toad_: first africa has to get its act together and build the infrastructure necessary for mass industrial production.
[11:21] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: umm, they get to stay alive? they get roads, so they can sell stuff; they get wells and running water; etc etc. there's a lot of BAD aid. but there's GOOD aid too.
[11:22] <toad_> the whole point is that over the last 25 or so years, we have given them aid, but tied it to exploitative conditions and trading rules, so that they become dependant on us
[11:23] <toad_> if we give them better and more aid, and give them a fair chance with trade, and write off some of their debt, then in the long run they *WONT* be dependant on us
[11:23] <toad_> they will in fact be our trade partners
[11:23] <PrototypeX29A> yeah, we cant say 'ok you got all this coffee or things, but now we won't take it'
[11:24] <toad_> a billion people live on $1/day. a typical cow in the EU gets $2/day in subsidies.
[11:24] <PrototypeX29A> but why do we make them to produce coffee, perhaps they should grow food
[11:24] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: so they can buy medicine, education etc, perhaps?
[11:24] <PrototypeX29A> a cow is bigger than most people
[11:24] <linyos> sure, but the big problem for "non-developing nations" is not rich-world trade protection and distortion (although i find that outrageous)
[11:24] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: i'm not saying they aren't exploited...
[11:24] <linyos> it is the fact that, for whatever reason, people cannot do business there
[11:25] <linyos> usually the reason is bad government and lack of reliable intrastructure
[11:25] <PrototypeX29A> toad_: whats medicine and education, when they starve?
[11:25] <toad_> linyos: because of instability, because of lack of infrastructure, etc. which is why we have to give them preferential treatment, for the time being.
[11:25] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: medicine is pretty important if you have AIDS, malaria, TB...
[11:26] <toad_> PrototypeX29A: and education is important in not starving in future
[11:26] <linyos> toad_: one wonders whether any amount of preferential treatment will make a difference with a regime that does not care about economic growth.
[11:26] <toad_> anyway they've all been booted off the land now
[11:26] <toad_> linyos: very few regimes don't care about economic growth
[11:27] <toad_> even the dictatorships
[11:27] <PrototypeX29A> the education they get is this western education which wasn't any good in the first place
[11:27] <Connelly> well thanks for enlightening me with your miles of chatter meandering with mazy motion
[11:27] <Connelly> :)
[11:27] <toad_> :)
[11:27] <toad_> ok
[11:27] <toad_> i'm gonna get some food and then get to work
[11:27] <linyos> toad_: well, plenty of them manage somehow to avoid pro-growth policies.
[11:27] <toad_> ttyl
[11:27] <linyos> laer
[11:27] <linyos> later
[11:27] <Connelly> (yes, that was a coleridge quote :)
[11:28] * Connelly (n=connelly@c-24-22-21-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has left #freenet
[11:28] <PrototypeX29A> now i wanna play some x-com, cu
[11:28] * PrototypeX29A (n=peter@i577BA482.versanet.de) Quit ("booting windows")
[11:29] <toad_> linyos: economic growth is more than make the rich richer. but lets leave the whole liberalisation debate for another time.
[11:29] <toad_> bbl
[11:32] <mazzanet> toad_: give me some svn lovin' pwease :P
[11:33] <linyos> the rich getting richer is a rich-world phenomenon.
[11:33] <linyos> and it has to do with technology reducing the demand for low-skill labor.
[11:34] <linyos> and increasing the demand for skilled workers
[11:35] <linyos> peasants and slum-dwellers are completely indifferent to all this; all they want is to have somebody pay them a couple thousand bucks a year to screw things together.
[11:36] <linyos> (and then one rung up the ladder, you have the poor-world entrepreneurial class that is systematically obstructed by stupid regimes.)
[11:36] <linyos> many poor countries have ridiculous barriers to starting a business
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[11:53] <toad_> mazzanet: send me a username, password and email address
[11:54] <toad_> linyos: well, much of that is things like it being hard to get credit. micro-credit coops can do a lot, even in deep rural areas
[11:56] <toad_> interesting quote i just got from tearfund...
[11:56] <toad_> 'Changing the human heart and changing human society are not separate tasks, but
[11:56] <toad_> +are as interconnected as the two beams of the cross' - Henri Nouwen
[11:56] <toad_> i have no idea who henri nouwen is
[11:57] <toad_> linyos: the classic thing is "lend a peasant a goat..."
[11:57] <toad_> now, to work...
[11:58] <linyos> the world bank publishes a "cost of doing business" report where you can read about things like minimum-capital requirements of five years' average wages, etc.
[11:59] <linyos> and bureaucratic swamps that take months to wade through.
[12:00] <toad_> and the motive for creating these is? incompetence? (quite possible) corruption? (the more complex and expensive the paperwork, the more can be siphoned off)?
[12:00] <linyos> god only knows.
[12:01] <toad_> okay
[12:01] <toad_> we need to sort out this license problem
[12:01] <toad_> i have added a clause to the GPL in our copy of COPYING so that we can link with the Apache Commons Compress library
[12:01] <toad_> however, in theory we ought to contact everyone who ever contributed...
[12:02] <toad_> this library is for tar and bzip2 support, essentially
[12:02] <toad_> there is some GPL'd tar code we could use, aparently developed independantly
[12:02] <toad_> some code just uses Commons Compress anyway and keeps the GPL
[12:02] <toad_> legally there are some compatibility issues though
[12:04] <linyos> freenet contributors are probably the least likely people in the world to exercise their intellectual property rights...
[12:05] <toad_> even so, it's important that we be seen to do the legally right thing in our position...
[12:07] <toad_> i suppose i could contact all the committers...
[12:07] <toad_> most of them will still have working sourceforge nyms
[12:07] <toad_> we will need the approval of the evil corporation that owns the Dijjer code too, which might be a problem...
[12:07] <toad_> ian's asking them
[12:09] <linyos> what is up with ian? he spends all his time cooking up p2p gadgets instead of working on freenet...
[12:09] <toad_> :)
[12:09] <linyos> i've always wondered how you go from radical politics ian-clarke to neato gadgets ian-clarke
[12:09] <toad_> he also does essentially all of the PR for the project
[12:10] <toad_> and he's my line manager in the sense that i go to him for technical and administrative decisions
[12:10] <toad_> he's useful
[12:11] <linyos> i believe it, it only amuses me to see him spend his life making toys.
[12:11] <linyos> (as well as managing you.)
[12:11] <toad_> and money
[12:23] <toad_> yikes
[12:23] <toad_> bzip2 is four-clause BSD
[12:23] <toad_> meaning it's not GPL compatible _either_
[12:24] <toad_> is it any wonder that we end up reimplementing stuff 99% of the time, when people insist on using different incompatible licenses just to annoy us?
[12:24] <toad_> anyway we can still bundle it
[12:37] * toad_ emails the guy who wrote the java bzip2 library
[12:39] <toad_> hopefully he isn't a BSD zealot... if he was, he'd have used the 4-clause BSD license :)
[12:50] <JoshParadroid> what's this 4-clause BSD license? isn't bsd the most-free of all licenses?
[12:50] <nextgens> hi
[12:50] <linyos> i'm going to give my next program a driver's license
[12:51] <linyos> then it could cruise the streets and pick up chicks.
[12:52] <nextgens> mazzanet> to change your password, just go there : https://emu.freenetproject.org/admin/
[12:52] <nextgens> ;)
[12:54] <nextgens> JoshParadroid> that's why it's not GPL compatible ;)
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[13:06] <JoshParadroid> oh right, i see
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[13:17] -lilo- [Global Notice] Hi all. Please bear with us while we rehub to complete the resolution of a routing problem we experienced earlier in the day. Thanks for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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[13:28] -lilo- [Global Notice] Our rehubbing should be complete, barring any other problems.... thanks again for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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[13:53] <PrototypeX29A> hi
[13:55] <PrototypeX29A> im trying the windows version, but i was unable to download the ref-file
[13:57] <sbc> PrototypeX29A: Try downloading them manually and unzipping them. Can be found here: http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/seednodes.ref.zip
[13:57] <PrototypeX29A> where should i place it?
[13:57] <sbc> with the .jar files (I think, I'm not that strong with the windows install).
[13:58] <sbc> remember to unzip them first.
[13:58] <PrototypeX29A> yeah
[13:59] * hobx_ (n=ag@ankh.math.chalmers.se) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[13:59] <nextgens> has the filename changed ?
[13:59] * nextgens could change it if it has
[14:00] <sbc> filename of what?
[14:00] <nextgens> the ref. file
[14:00] <nextgens> which one does the wininstaller is trying to fetch ?
[14:00] * sbc has no idea.
[14:01] <nextgens> someone commited a fix on svn ...
[14:02] <nextgens> but I doubt that up to date snapshots are aviable yet
[14:02] * sbc thinks the wininstaller should be abandoned, and the whole thing distributed in a .zip file (kinda like the linux package).
[14:03] <sbc> unpack, click a .bat script (or similar) and nothing fancy besides that.
[14:03] <nextgens> agreed but ^-^
[14:03] <sbc> But what do I know, I don't run win...
[14:03] <nextgens> neither do I ;)
[14:03] <nextgens> it seems that the problem is to install a JVM on windows ...
[14:04] <nextgens> and that the wininstaller is^wwas installing an old, crappy version
[14:05] <sbc> If you can ask linux people to download and install java on their own, you can ask windows people to. If you can't install a java, you can't get much out of freenet anyway. (Or is that to elitist thinking?)
[14:05] <PrototypeX29A> perhaps i should boot linux again, i can't stand this windows anyway
[14:05] * PrototypeX29A (n=vic@i577BA482.versanet.de) Quit ("brb")
[14:06] <sbc> ohh, did I / we offend him? :)
[14:06] <nextgens> sbc> anyway, with the darknet thing, the network will be more "elitist"
[14:07] <nextgens> at least some parts of the network will :)
[14:07] <nextgens> definitly, ...
[14:07] <nextgens> I won't peer someone wich is rebooting every 2 hours on my node, ...
[14:09] <nextgens> so, the point is there will be a more "stable" network topology that it was
[14:09] <nextgens> and it WILL work better hopefully :)
[14:09] * PrototypeX29A (n=peter@i577BA482.versanet.de) has joined #freenet
[14:09] <PrototypeX29A> re
[14:10] <PrototypeX29A> is there a description of the protocol between two nodes?
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[14:11] <nextgens> PrototypeX29A> in the source ? :D
[14:11] <nextgens> PrototypeX29A> into the source code ? :D
[14:12] <sbc> nextgens: hope your right about the whole, working better. Anyway, I'm off. Hope you get it working PrototypeX29A.
[14:21] * sleon|tuX (i=test@e180012083.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #freenet
[14:21] <sleon|tuX> http://www.securitylab.ru/vulnerability/source/241828.php
[14:22] <hobx_> Does anybody use java serialization?
[14:23] <nextgens> yes, we do ...
[14:23] <nextgens> at least, the simulator does
[14:23] <hobx_> we didn't back when I had my say...
[14:24] <hobx_> built in object serialization scares me.
[14:24] <nextgens> I don't think we do in the node though ...
[14:25] <PrototypeX29A> where can i specify my own ip?
[14:25] <nextgens> I suggested using it to toad, in order to enable the simulator to suspend/resume without loosing its state
[14:25] <PrototypeX29A> in freenet.conf ip=x.x.x.x?
[14:26] <nextgens> but anyway, it shouldn't be used by "normal" users ... and it's just yet an other Sun's JRE bug :[
[14:26] <nextgens> PrototypeX29A> you shouldn't have to
[14:27] <nextgens> try not specifying it
[14:27] <PrototypeX29A> i am behind a router
[14:27] <nextgens> even, it should handle it properly
[14:27] <PrototypeX29A> i think it is necessary
[14:28] <nextgens> I don't :)
[14:28] <PrototypeX29A> ok, i give it a try
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[14:29] <nextgens> PrototypeX29A> go to the fproxy page dealing with "open connections" ...
[14:29] <nextgens> see if there is any incomming one
[14:29] <nextgens> bbl
[14:30] <PrototypeX29A> i cant connect to the proxy, after i run start-freenet.sh
[14:32] <PrototypeX29A> uhh
[14:32] <PrototypeX29A> my fault
[14:32] <PrototypeX29A> it couldn't find java, but there was no error message :/
[14:33] <FallingBuzzard> PrototypeX29A: if you have incoming connections, they will tell your node what its external IP address is.
[14:34] <PrototypeX29A> how could i get incoming connections without anyone knowing my ip?
[14:34] <FallingBuzzard> Your node makes outgoing connections from the seednodes
[14:35] <FallingBuzzard> Nodes will try to connect back to you on the IP address that you connected to them
[14:36] <FallingBuzzard> IP address and Port #
[14:36] <PrototypeX29A> just can't find my java-binary
[14:40] <PrototypeX29A> something stil does not work
[14:41] <PrototypeX29A> oh now
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[14:52] <toad_> hi
[14:53] <sleon|tuX> hi
[14:54] <toad_> hmmm
[14:54] <toad_> we need to put the compression codec in the URI
[14:54] <toad_> is one byte enough? very probably...
[14:55] <toad_> in metadata I use a short
[14:56] <toad_> so lets call it a short for consistency
[14:56] <toad_> two bytes
[14:59] <FallingBuzzard> It can't get the compression codec from the metadata?
[15:00] <FallingBuzzard> Or are you compressing the metadata too?
[15:00] <toad_> if it's just one block, we want to avoid a separate metadata document just to say "it's compressed with bzip2"
[15:00] <toad_> and yes metadata can be compressed
[15:01] <toad_> and since we're having a registry of compression codecs for metadata, it seems rather perverse to only support gzip on single blocks
[15:01] <FallingBuzzard> Can you autodetect the compression? I seem to remember that zip/bzip/etc have headers that indicate what the compression type is.
[15:03] <toad_> maybe, but that's messy
[15:03] <FallingBuzzard> probably
[15:03] <FallingBuzzard> Can you just have the client try each decompression in order and detect if it works or not?
[15:04] <linyos> hah, good idea
[15:04] <linyos> very bad-ass
[15:06] * FallingBuzzard thinks URI's are getting too long
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[15:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
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[16:00] <Elly> toad-with-underline!
[16:06] <linyos> ``Mr. Dell, go to hell,'' state radio quoted Mugabe as saying Tuesday.
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[16:49] <toad_> Elly !
[16:49] <hobx_> my hero!
[16:50] <hobx_> (Mugabe that is...)
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[17:14] <PrototypeX29A> what does it mean, when it says 'The network is busy, please try later again' when i connect to the mainpage of localhost:8888?
[17:14] <PrototypeX29A> who is busy?
[17:15] <greycat> switch to advanced mode. that's probably an RNF.
[17:16] <PrototypeX29A> rnf?
[17:16] <greycat> Route Not Found.
[17:17] <PrototypeX29A> but isn't the main page something which is created locally?
[17:17] <greycat> one would hope so
[17:18] <PrototypeX29A> so what has to be routed?
[17:18] <greycat> dunno. but that *sounded* like an RNF dumbed down to me.
[17:18] <greycat> maybe the node hadn't completely started up yet?
[17:20] <PrototypeX29A> it has been running for at least 2 hours
[17:20] <PrototypeX29A> and i got connections earlier
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[20:20] <Ribs> Why shouldn't we use the freenet package(s) provided by Debian?
[20:24] <nextgens_> because it's 3 years old ?
[20:26] <Ribs> oh
[20:26] <Ribs> :)
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[22:24] <nextgens> hi
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Irc logs of #freenet : 2008 2007 2006 2005
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