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[0:43] [freenode-connect VERSION]
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[4:05] <sanity> hobx: emails will sometimes be delayed due to use of greylisting (http://greylisting.org/)
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[10:42] <nextgens> hi
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[10:52] <toad_> hi nextime
[10:52] <toad_> argh
[10:52] <toad_> nextgens gone :|
[10:53] <danderson> yah
[10:53] <danderson> the hub ircd just crashed on another network
[10:53] <danderson> actually, probably the connection died
[10:53] <danderson> and he ssh-es to that host to irc
[10:54] <danderson> if it doesn't come back soon I'll wager he'll come back from some other host
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[10:59] <toad_> hi FallingBuzzard
[10:59] <FallingBuzzard> Hi
[10:59] <toad_> i have a go from ian re eliminating double slashes
[10:59] <toad_> yay
[10:59] <FallingBuzzard> Good. I don't like them
[11:00] <FallingBuzzard> Freenet URI's should look like WWW addresses
[11:00] <FallingBuzzard> As much as possible
[11:00] <FallingBuzzard> Will your proposal solve the containers within containers problem?
[11:01] <toad_> yeah, although that isn't very much :)
[11:01] <toad_> yes, i think i can deal with that
[11:01] <FallingBuzzard> Cool :)
[11:01] <toad_> there might be some issues with possible deadlocks though
[11:01] <toad_> hopefully not...
[11:02] <FallingBuzzard> So freenet is subdirectory aware now?
[11:02] <toad_> well it's just a matter of changing the metastring separator from // to /
[11:02] <FallingBuzzard> Is that going to require a major rewrite of freenet tools, FIW, Frost, etc?
[11:02] <toad_> and making sure that ordinary keys get first dibs i.e. SSK@.../blah ...
[11:03] <toad_> hmmm
[11:03] <toad_> it shouldn't affect frost
[11:03] <toad_> but 0.7 will require significant rewrites anyway
[11:03] <toad_> hmmm
[11:03] <toad_> how do we distinguish between (SSK@..../blah)/blah and (SSK@.../)/blah/blah ?
[11:04] <toad_> that may be the original reason for // :(
[11:04] <FallingBuzzard> Meaning that the / is part of the key?
[11:04] <toad_> i suppose that's easy... don't allow SSK@.../blah
[11:04] <toad_> require that there is always a name on an SSK
[11:05] <toad_> don't allow SSK@.../
[11:05] <toad_> on its own
[11:05] <FallingBuzzard> the / is a special character so you can make up the rules
[11:05] <FallingBuzzard> a web page name cannot contain a /
[11:05] <toad_> well logically you can't index an SSK as a whole
[11:07] <FallingBuzzard> I have a possible approach for standardized searching of freenet sites
[11:07] <toad_> you mean actual google-like searching?
[11:07] <FallingBuzzard> yes in a limited way
[11:07] <toad_> go on
[11:08] <FallingBuzzard> Put a flag in for when you insert a page that indicates whether you want to insert keywords for searching
[11:09] <toad_> ... and then put your own keywords in? yeah, that's possible, but bear in mind that real search engines typically ignore META keywords because of all the spam
[11:09] <FallingBuzzard> If the flag is set, insert a hash of the keyword and the key of the document
[11:10] <toad_> or are you saying for inserting an index of other people's sites?
[11:10] <FallingBuzzard> Anyone would be able to insert the keyword SSK@ combination
[11:11] <FallingBuzzard> A search would be a request for the keyword hash
[11:11] <FallingBuzzard> All the pages that had that keyword inserted would show up.
[11:12] <FallingBuzzard> Search engines could search for keywords and then retrieve the pages
[11:12] <FallingBuzzard> Storing a list of pages that appear to really apply to that keyword
[11:12] <FallingBuzzard> The user could either search for keywords or use a search engine that has tried to determine the validity of the keyword
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[11:13] <toad_> "search for the keyword hash" ?
[11:13] <toad_> so you're saying you can request a particular kind of key which returns everything ever inserted in it? perhaps some form of TUK?
[11:13] <toad_> it would be spammed to hell
[11:13] <FallingBuzzard> A SSK@ hash of the keyword
[11:14] <FallingBuzzard> It could be spammed as much as anyone wants
[11:14] <FallingBuzzard> It is up to the search engines to determine the validity of the keyword page combination
[11:14] <FallingBuzzard> Just like today's Internet search engines
[11:15] <toad_> hmmm
[11:16] <toad_> so a site might have a search index attached to it basically?
[11:16] <toad_> which would then be <key specified in manifest>/<hash of keyword searching for> ?
[11:16] <FallingBuzzard> yes
[11:16] <toad_> problem with that is that it'd be a LOT of keys, very inefficient
[11:16] * toad_ suggests bundling them
[11:16] <FallingBuzzard> Keys are 1K
[11:16] <toad_> even so
[11:18] <FallingBuzzard> If I search for EU constitution, I can either get all key hash's that have been inserted for those keywords or use a search engine that has verified the relationship between each of those keys and the pages they reference
[11:19] <FallingBuzzard> If someone inserts a key that links to a pron page, the search engines should determine the relevance of that key to that page and determine that the key does not apply very well
[11:20] * FallingBuzzard is advocating using hashed keywords to replace Google's database of keywords/pages
[11:23] * FallingBuzzard must run to a meeting. Will be back later.
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[11:54] <nextgens> hi
[11:56] <toad_> hi
[12:11] <nextgens> toad_> would it be possible to set up at least an other backup MX somewhere else than on emu ?
[12:11] <nextgens> 18:14:02?nextgens?~ ?host -t MX freenetproject.org
[12:11] <nextgens> freenetproject.org mail is handled by 0 86400.mx.freenetproject.org.
[12:12] <nextgens> or even asking lists is someone would be kind enough to host it
[12:26] <toad_> how would that work?
[12:27] <nextgens> you should add an other MX entry for the new host and the MTA on this host should "handle"/accept mails for the domain (freenetproject.org)
[12:27] <nextgens> it's really silly to have only one MX :
[12:27] <danderson> yah, if emu dies, your mail gets dropped on the floor
[12:27] <toad_> if emu dies for a longish period
[12:27] <nextgens> if someone sends a mail to @freenetproject.org and emu is down, it will be dropped
[12:27] <danderson> with a secondary MX, the mail gets routed to the secondary for safekeeping, and then gets relayed to the primary once it comes back up
[12:27] <nextgens> toad_> no
[12:28] <toad_> not true, it gets queued if it can't get through the first time
[12:28] <toad_> they retry
[12:28] <danderson> toad_: failure to contact all MXes is a permanent error iirc, or at least a temporary error which times out very quickly
[12:28] <toad_> the intermediary MX queues it
[12:28] <toad_> and retries after a certain period, then after a longer period, then after a longer still period, doesn't it?
[12:28] <nextgens> no, it should return a message saying 'unable to deliver'
[12:29] <toad_> well, what should the alternative MX _do_ with the email?
[12:29] <danderson> toad_: that is if the destination MX returns a temporary error code
[12:29] <danderson> something like "try again later"
[12:29] <toad_> most of it is redirected to other email addresses, some of it is local
[12:29] <nextgens> toad_> have a look ; host -t MX free.fr google.com ebay.com ;)
[12:29] <danderson> if the MX can't contact the destination MX's at all, I think it's a permanent error
[12:29] <danderson> which times out and bounces immediately
[12:30] <toad_> hmmm, if you say so
[12:30] <toad_> personally my outgoing email goes through emu
[12:30] * nextgens is looking for the rfc
[12:31] <toad_> because i like having my own domain
[12:31] <nextgens> it's not a problem for outgoing mail ...
[12:31] <toad_> and if i send it directly, it gets dropped by spam filters
[12:31] <nextgens> but your domain should be backuped too ;)
[12:32] <toad_> i've had mails sent through my ISP's servers rejected because my ISP's entire domain was blacklisted occasionally
[12:33] * Hory (n=Miranda@82.78.27.85) has joined #FreeNet
[12:33] <nextgens> erf
[12:33] <toad_> well only once i think
[12:33] <toad_> (it's not like it's a small ISP either!)
[12:34] <nextgens> bt ? :)
[12:34] <toad_> by
[12:34] * FallingBuzzard (n=FallingB@66.151.22.70) has joined #freenet
[12:34] <nextgens> the only problem with backup MXs is that "we" have to trust them enough to keep our mails :
[12:35] <toad_> also if i ever change ISP i can keep my domain... without having to deal with #!$? webmail (which EVERY SINGLE PERSON i know who isn't a geek uses)
[12:35] <nextgens> even if it should'nt happen, the will be able to "read" our mails if emu goes down
[12:35] <toad_> actually one of them uses BY, but he's quite technically capable
[12:38] <FallingBuzzard> toad_: Any thoughts on my keyword hash SSK's idea?
[12:39] * FallingBuzzard usually has ideas that suck
[12:41] <toad_> FallingBuzzard: there are two ways to do searching
[12:41] <toad_> one is to contact a server (via 1:1 streams)
[12:41] <toad_> the other is for a server to publish an index
[12:42] <toad_> for the latter, we need to come up with a spec for the file format, and implement a client and an indexing spider
[12:44] <FallingBuzzard> Indexing spider can be external to Freenet. At least 1 spider already exists.
[12:44] <FallingBuzzard> The spider just needs to be fed starting points
[12:45] <toad_> indeed
[12:45] * toad_ notes that a really clever spider could parse frost for URIs
[12:45] <toad_> and NIMs
[12:45] <FallingBuzzard> So all that is necessary for searching is a standard index format, a way to feed the spider and a client
[12:46] <FallingBuzzard> The client could be "safe" javascript
[12:47] <toad_> it won't be, we've had this flamewar before
[12:47] <FallingBuzzard> My theory is that keywords could be published to freenet and not to an individual search engine
[12:47] <toad_> we will implement one
[12:48] <toad_> no, they can't. well, you could make ways for them to be, but they would be spammed. only way to avoid spam is to have an actual search engine with a reputation.
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[12:53] <toad_> hi my_haz
[12:57] <nextgens> sanity> here ?
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[14:15] <nextgens> ok, I'll try to do the seenode updating thing now
[14:15] <nextgens> *seednode*
[14:15] <toad_> nextgens: did you get through to ian?
[14:15] <nextgens> not yet
[14:16] <nextgens> so I let it as it is
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[15:33] <nextgens_> :-S
[15:33] <nextgens_> my connection sucks
[15:36] * jake (i=jimlaney@tnpt-ip-nas-1-p213.telkom-ipnet.co.za) has joined #freenet
[15:36] <jake> hi
[15:36] <Eol> who's doesn't :)
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[15:40] <toad_> nextgens's connection *really* sucks, it's a conventional DSL line shared amongst 37 people
[15:41] * jake (i=jimlaney@tnpt-ip-nas-1-p213.telkom-ipnet.co.za) has left #freenet
[15:45] <nextgens_> :-S irc is hardly usable ...
[15:46] <nextgens_> and ssh is becomming really difficult :(
[15:54] * sleon|tuX (i=test@e180012062.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #freenet
[15:56] <Eol> trying have 8K users on a single DS3 :)
[15:56] <sleon|tuX> Eol, what is ds3?
[15:56] <Eol> not much better here :) (tor tunnels keep shitting)
[15:58] <Eol> ~45 mbs
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[16:14] <nextgens_> sanity> ping ?
[16:15] * nextgens_ is now known as nextgens
[16:20] * nextgens is wondering if the paypal balance updating script is on dodo too
[16:23] <nextgens> toad_> should I keep on generating two sets of seednodes.ref files or can I do only one as both networks will be merged ?
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[16:43] <nextgens> 4 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5100
[16:43] <nextgens> 13 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5102
[16:43] <nextgens> 8 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5103
[16:43] <nextgens> 11 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5104
[16:43] <nextgens> 115 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5105
[16:43] <nextgens> 157 version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5106
[16:53] <TheSeeker> 60275 should be able to connect to 5106 nodes, right?
[16:54] <nextgens> they should
[16:55] <TheSeeker> ok, yeah, the one connection I have is a 50106 node... seeds must still be way overloaded... 198 seednodes listed and one connection in the first 5 minutes.
[16:55] <nextgens> seeds aren't up to date, that's all :)
[16:56] <TheSeeker> why not? @_@
[16:56] * nextgens is moving the script wich is generating them
[16:57] <nextgens> I've just commented out the crontab on dodo
[16:57] <nextgens> now emu is in charge of uploading them
[16:57] <nextgens> toad_> still here ?
[16:58] <nextgens> toad_> we might ask people publishing their seednodes to allow emu to fetch them ;)
[16:59] <TheSeeker> so, how long until there's a new seednodes ref that I can download? it's been a while since I had my node running, so I needed to reseed.
[16:59] <nextgens> the problem is that the script has just been moved ...
[16:59] <nextgens> and now is running but on a reducted set of "peers"
[17:00] <nextgens> as most of them had only allow fetching from dodo
[17:00] * nextgens isn't sure to be clear enough
[17:01] <nextgens> *had only allowed*
[17:01] <TheSeeker> So emu is doign the collecting now, but most people who haven't update their scripts to allow harvesting of their nodes only let dodo have the files...
[17:01] <TheSeeker> how does that relate to the 10 MB of bad seednodes I downloaded? shouldn't it just be a very small file now with few nodes in it?
[17:04] <nextgens> well, when did you download it ?
[17:04] <TheSeeker> about 15 mins ago
[17:05] <nextgens> they should be fine
[17:05] <nextgens> but don't download the new version ;)
[17:05] * Eol (n=Eol@tor/session/x-d0da4e03439a67b2) Quit ("Leaving")
[17:05] <TheSeeker> dated: 29-Sep-2005
[17:05] <nextgens> erf
[17:06] <TheSeeker> a little old :p
[17:08] <TheSeeker> should I be getting seednodes from somewhere other than: http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/ ?
[17:11] <nextgens> the script is generating a new set ATM
[17:11] <nextgens> they will be uploaded there and on http://downloads.freenetproject.org/seednodes/
[17:11] <nextgens> will^wshould
[17:13] * TheSeeker grabs the one there and resets his routing table/restarts
[17:13] <toad_> nextgens: ah
[17:13] <toad_> yeah
[17:13] <toad_> will do
[17:13] <toad_> brb
[17:14] <TheSeeker> 4 connections and climbing...
[17:14] <TheSeeker> much better :)
[17:22] <toad_> okay, i'm here
[17:22] <toad_> first lets fix my own node
[17:25] <toad_> nextgens: here
[17:26] <nextgens> yes
[17:26] <nextgens> toad_> what do you need ? :)
[17:26] <toad_> i will email all the people i know re seednodes
[17:27] <toad_> all the people i know are seednodes sources
[17:27] <toad_> and i have sent a mail to the list already
[17:27] <nextgens> ok, thanks
[17:27] <nextgens> sanity> ping ?
[17:31] <toad_> hmmm
[17:31] <toad_> is Squirrel Remailer Admin <admin@squirrel.theremailer.net> bidi?
[17:31] <toad_> i doubt it
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[17:41] <nextgens> toad_> should we let the 11Mo uncompressed big file on http://downloads.freenetproject.org/seednodes/ ?
[17:41] <nextgens> the zip generation is broken
[17:43] * Hory (n=Miranda@82.78.27.85) Quit (No route to host)
[17:43] <toad_> nextgens: what's wrong with the zip?
[17:43] <toad_> nextgens: why do i get this?
[17:43] <toad_> This is the Postfix program at host emu.freenetproject.org.
[17:43] <toad_> ...
[17:43] <toad_> <robert@accesscomm.ca>: host mailin1.accesscomm.ca[204.83.142.25] said: 554
[17:43] <toad_> 5.7.1 Message contains a zero-byte attachment (in reply to end of DATA
[17:43] <toad_> command)
[17:43] <nextgens> sorry
[17:43] <toad_> oh
[17:43] <toad_> it IS their fault
[17:43] <toad_> okay
[17:43] <nextgens> ?
[17:44] <nextgens> oh, yes
[17:44] <toad_> nextgens: I've just mailed everyone re the seednodes change
[17:44] <nextgens> you shouldn't be spammed by my script this time ;)
[17:45] <toad_> :)
[17:46] <toad_> i want it to tell me if it *fails*
[17:46] <toad_> hmmm
[17:46] <toad_> strange
[17:46] <toad_> still getting the same error even without any MIME at all in the email
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[17:48] <toad_> hi
[17:49] * Hory` is now known as Hory
[17:59] <nextgens> ok, zip files should be generated next time the script is invoqued
[17:59] <nextgens> toad_> should we keep http://downloads.freenetproject.org/seednodes/seednodes.ref so ?
[18:00] <nextgens> it will "eat" a lot of bandwidth
[18:00] <TheSeeker> do webservers not automatically do compression on text that is sent out?
[18:02] <toad_> nextgens: how big is it?
[18:02] <TheSeeker> I suppose if they did, it would still be cheap easy compression, 50% or so less data than the original file size ...
[18:02] <toad_> nextgens: well, if we only provide the zip, we force the issue w.r.t. wininstaller...
[18:03] <toad_> but we really ought to do that anyway...
[18:03] <nextgens> 11.5M
[18:03] <nextgens> as you want
[18:03] <TheSeeker> down to < 600K with bz2 ... pretty good.
[18:03] <toad_> i have no idea whether apache automatically does transfer-encoding: gzip, i suspect you have to install a module...
[18:03] <nextgens> and I caould enable mod_gzip on apache
[18:04] <nextgens> the only problem would be the load on emu ;)
[18:04] <toad_> :|
[18:04] <toad_> well
[18:04] <toad_> we'll have to change the wininstaller anyway to make it point to emu
[18:04] <toad_> people said they would make it support zip extraction, then didn't... i'm not sure how easy it is
[18:05] <toad_> otoh it probably uses IE's fetch code, which may well support TE: gzip or at least CE: gzip
[18:05] <toad_> nextgens: can you get apache to serve seednodes.ref.gz to any client which says it accepts compressed data?
[18:06] <toad_> nextgens: also, we get a cert error updating in the rebuild script
[18:06] <toad_> bbiab
[18:06] <nextgens> gnih ?
[18:06] <nextgens> "a cert error updating in the rebuild script" ?
[18:07] <toad_> in svn update
[18:07] <TheSeeker> just clicked on seednodes.ref.gz in IE, and am getting pages upon pages of text... seems to transparently decode.
[18:08] <TheSeeker> hmm, if I "sve as" though, I'll probably get the gz in compressed form.
[18:09] <TheSeeker> actually, I don't. interesting.
[18:09] <nextgens> toad_> yes, the certificate has changed to get signed by the CA
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[20:25] [freenode-connect VERSION]
[20:37] -lilo- [Server Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing problems with connectivity to the server you're on, clarke.freenode.net, and we'll probably be shutting it down for now. Apologies for the inconvenience. Please reconnect to 'irc.freenode.net'.... thanks!
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